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Well, here's asking for it . . .

Around the dakka forums, GW catches a lot of hate but I've noticed some dakkaites aren't afraid to show the love. I am definitely among them. After spending some time with my brand spankin' new SW codex--and reflecting on the new SM, Orks, and Guard codici--and seeing the new Space Hulk (didn't manage to nab one, though), I've gotten to thinking. Are we in a golden age of gaming? Sure, there's a lot of room to improve BUT just think--see it "glass half full" for a moment--given the way things have been going, couldn't that mean that there is a lot more to come? I don't mean to gush, but is there really that much to be cynical about in the hobby right now? (Have we all gotten over the fact that GW isn't our own personal slave but rather a corporation that's interested in making money for its shareholders?) I mean look at these new models:

GW ARE DA EVUL EMPIRES
YOU ARE CORPORATE WHORE
DO YOU WANT OVERPRICED MODEL
DO YOU WANT BROKEN FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CODEX
GW IS PIG DISGUSTING
PHIL KELLY IS MURDERER

Mate, You've run into a very simple phenomina. Improvment. Forget the whole "rosy tint glasses" thing and People need to realise that the whole progress of Warhammer, 40k and FB is a WIP. It is constantly improving, expanding, and it will always be better than it was yesterday, providing your eyes are open to see it.
Philosophers have estimated that we, in the world, know les than 1% of everything there is to discover. It may seem as if the world is ending, but really, i dont think so.
Those are some great models.

Obviously you do not play Chaos. There is ALWAYS something to be cynical about: almost all the legions play better on other codicies and, as I push the boundries of the current codex, the poor design is starting to get to me.

Then again, I start painting my orks and the endless possibilities of that codex cheers me up.

That's exactly what I mean, Bascillica, there's a lot to be positive about.

Oh, and thanks to Eidolon for summing up the possible flaming angles in a Cthulhuesque chant.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Games Workshop R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

I can't stand when people needlessly bash GW. Warhammer has come a LONG way and the miniatures and gameplay are only getting better. There are some armies that have been a little neglected and Space Marines are admittedly very common, but the hobby continues to grow and without GW you wouldn't have a game to play in the first place.

DarkHound wrote:Then again, I start painting my orks and the endless possibilities of that codex cheers me up.

Holy gak! Even DarkHound's cheery! I think that proves a lot.

As to Chaos, that falls in the "good things to come column," my friend. Have hope!

We are all gamers and we need to start being happy about are games and stop bashing the ones who made the game in the first place.

Death Gear wrote:We are all gamers and we need to start [building gaming pubs].

If you had said this, I would get behind you all the way.

rules-wise for me the golden age was 2000-3. Yeah the rules were a mess, yeah the game was unbalanced.

But GW was putting out new stuff every month. Under the Fat Bloke Paul Sawyer we had a new army list in preactically every issue of WD. Many of them sucked but they were there! GW was trying new stuff.

Plus we had Citiadel Journal and Forgeworld was still putting their rules out in affordable books they actually sold in the US.

Models wise, yeah, things keep getting better, but now the rules are just dull.

Actually, Valhallan, that is something I've often thought about. Maybe not a pub but certainly some sort of club. I think GW is doing well enough that I might actually be able to convince some friends to invest in an army or two.


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Kid_Kyoto wrote:Models wise, yeah, things keep getting better, but now the rules are just dull.

After reading the rules for Lukas the Trickster, I just cannot agree.

I think the rules are just fine to me but thats just me.

While the model quality of GW has improved steadily since the game was released, I think you will find it hard to find people who are happy with the current state of GW.

-The rules are a mess, and GW seems hellbent on proving (again) that they won't fix them for anyone.
-Codexes are just getting absurd. They have become an impressive combination of rampant power creep mixed with utter blandness in list design.
-They are price gouging, pure and simple. And for some reason people keep buying stuff so they keep getting away with it.
-White Dwarf is a joke. (on you no less)

I really don't see what they have going for them at this point other than pretty models. (for comical amounts of money)

IntoTheRain wrote:-The rules are a mess, and GW seems hellbent on proving (again) that they won't fix them for anyone.

I cannot agree. What about the FAQs? They're coming out reasonably quickly and are quite clear. There will always be some lack of clarity for players to have the freedom to work out more options/strategies/tactics. That hardly constitutes some kind of malicious anti-consumer attitude.

IntoTheRain wrote:-Codexes are just getting absurd. They have become an impressive combination of rampant power creep mixed with utter blandness in list design.

Again, what? The new codicies seem very well balanced while remaining fun. I don't get the codex creep argument (except possibly with SM, which is a GW standard and no surprise).

IntoTheRain wrote:-They are price gouging, pure and simple. And for some reason people keep buying stuff so they keep getting away with it.

I don't see a great difference between GW and something like AT-43 on this count (I'm excluding AT-43's pre-assembled, pre-painted characteristics because many people do a lot of work on them AND they're ridiculously ugly, IMO). Moreover, the models are not just pretty but beginning to show a lot of flexibility. Look at the new Guard and SW stuff. You get a ton of stuff to convert other stuff.

IntoTheRain wrote:-White Dwarf is a joke. (on you no less)

WD has been better but it's also getting better. Battle reports are taking up more space than ads now and we're getting some better painting tips of late, too.

-6 months to a year is fast response time for FAQ?

-Really? Orks? Guard? Not ringing any bells? SW has enough interesting stuff that a high end list will probably come out of it. I really don't see how you think those codexes are in the same league as their previous incarnations. They went from the bottom of the pile to the very top.

-Miniature modeling companies all price gouge because the consumer is willing to pay it and the business is small enough not to get government attention. Compare the amount of plastic to other modeling kits and its not even close. It literally blows my mind that people still buy this stuff. (I have about 2000 points..all I will ever need)

-While White Dwarf has done somewhat better, its a far cry from 'good'. I expect more than just a battle report and a painting class from a hobby magazine, and I expect a hell of a lot more for that kind of money. No featured armies of gamer's work? No terrain class or ideas? No codex design notes? No quick scenario rules for recreations? (the Eldar jetbike vs DE jetbike running battle was one of my favorites of all time)

Golden Age of Modelling - I think GW kits just keep getting better and better (the Space Wolf plastic kits are amazing).

Gaming? Not so much.

Again, what? The new codicies seem very well balanced while remaining fun. I don't get the codex creep argument (except possibly with SM, which is a GW standard and no surprise).

Didn't you just say that you finished reading the SW book? I am all on board for loving the new models and I don't have any serious issues with the current set of rules but the codex creep is just offensive.

-Guard 5th came out in May and their FAQ came out a month or two ago, I believe.

-Not sure what you're talking about. I don't play Orks or Guard and haven't built 5th edition lists for them but I did buy and read through both codicies and thought they'd be balanced and interesting to play against. I actually would maybe like to start a Guard army now.

-Okay, they all make us pay too much. Agreed, but this isn't some evil plan of GW's.

-I agree, there is a long way to go. But we're on the way up, not down.

As was pointed out, we're talking about improvements here. Now it could all go to hell at any point but there's no reason to sit around and worry while there is so much good to talk about. I can see these days as a time we will be nostalgic about someday. And I don't think it will be because things get so much worse.

@HBMC: Okay, I'll submit to your gloomy one-liner . . . or not. hen again, you're completely right about the SW plastics.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Golden Age of Modelling - I think GW kits just keep getting better and better (the Space Wolf plastic kits are amazing).

Gaming? Not so much.

Pretty much this. Not to mention for a gaming company GW can be pretty shady sometimes

May, June, July, August, September? 5 months? And that was by far the fastest one out in the last 8 codex releases. Most waited at least a year.

Take a look at the tournament results from the semi finals onwards in 'ard boyz. All your going to see are Eldar, Orks, Chaos, and Guard. Guess when those codexes came out?

Businesses are in it to make money, we can all agree on that. I'm just stunned at what people are willing to pay. But were on the same page at this point for pricing.

I don't subscribe to WD and haven't for a long time. I can only go by what I hear and what I read when I pick one up and flip through it in the store. If they have had a few better magazines (which is what has been reflected here on dakka) then good for them. But thats a long way from having a worth magazine that is worth subscribing too.

If you want to argue that GW is improving as a company, then you are welcome to make that argument. But arguing that this is a Golden Age for GW is imo an impossible position to defend.

Five months is not a long wait when the purpose of the document is to work out what has turned out to be problematic (but I'm a lawyer, so long waits for documents are to be expected as far as I'm concerned). As to 'Ard Boyz, I'm not surprised that DE didn't go home victorious if that's what you're saying. Pricing we can throw out, sure. And WD has--probably more than any other aspect of GW that we can reasonably expect improvement--a long way to go. If I was going to level an impossible cirticism, I'd say "support BFG or you're an evil empire!!!" but it just ain't gonna happen. Although, now that I think about it, they did release a new AdMech ship last year, right? I haven't even begun to talk about the greatness that is the HH series, by the way.

I say, usher in the Golden Age! (if it isn't already upon us)

I wouldn't call it a golden age, but it's no age of strife.

I've only been playing since 4th edition, so by and large right now is pretty peachy. Prices are nuts, but that's why I get everything discounted or secondhand. As for WD, well, I get that for free so I don't mind so much.

Manchu wrote:Okay, I'll submit to your gloomy one-liner

Gloomy?

HBMC wrote:I think GW kits just keep getting better and better (the Space Wolf plastic kits are amazing).

Yeah. Real fethin' gloomy.

Ah, BroSRM, you made me remember the greatness that is DoW (am I asking for it yet again?) and the UM movie on it's way. These are good days, I tell you.


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You read my post?

Manchu wrote:@HBMC: Okay, I'll submit to your gloomy one-liner . . . or not. hen again, you're completely right about the SW plastics.

About as well as fething usual.

Honestly, I don't think so. I'm not being a hater, I'm just saying I really don't think so.

I saw a picture of some brilliantly painted Eldar today, it made me want to get some Eldar, and then I remembered... Oh right. The rules and GW.

2nd Ed 40K was the golden age of GW gaming. Yes, there were a lot of things wrong with it, but there were a lot of things right about it as well. The game was amazingly fun when it didn't get out of hand or get bogged down. Then came 3rd edition. The game wasn't nearly as fun anymore for the sake of easy fixes for playability. It was still a better rule system than what else was out there, even if it was a shadow of its former self.

Then quite a few years passed.

Along came new games with new ideas and stronger rules development. When I play Warmachine, I go: "this is crazy like 2nd Ed 40k, except balanced and less prone to bogging down, and resource systems like focus are amazing". There were problems with Warmachine, there were things that did not work as well as they could have. Warmachine MK II cleaned up and streamlined the issues while preserving all of the parts of the game that were fun. Nothing got dumbed down to get it to work, instead things got smartened up. Not only are the rules well written, but their system of releasing new models for all the armies all the time means that you are never left waiting for years to get anything new for your army.

I'm not saying "Warmachine is better than 40K". Well, I am saying that, but that isn't my point. My point is that PP has released a *modern* table top miniatures game. Well written and clear rules that are balanced, army update cycles that are not in terms of years. A robust resource management system. They have delivered the total package. Not only have they delivered the total package, but with MK II, they have shown that they are hellbent on maintaining and improving that total package. My models that were 'meh' are now cool, and my models that were cool are still cool. I NEVER went through a GW update feeling like the models that I already owned got more relevant, interesting and rounded. I just experienced that with Warmachine MK II.


So no. I don't think GW is in a golden age. I like their models, I think they look great. Great looking modes isn't enough, and frankly, when someone pulls out something like the Harbinger of Menoth, epic Skarre or Drago, the stuff from GW doesn't look all that special, merely par for the course. When you play with the rules for the Harbinger of Menoth, epic Skarre or Drago, they are just as amazing as the sculpts. It isn't a case of being tired of the 40K universe either. If GW wrote a set of rules that were as dynamic, clear and balanced as the Warmachine rules, and promised not to leave my army hanging for years at a time, then I would be very excited to return to the 40K universe.

The golden age of gaming will come if PP continues to grow and GW actually becomes truly terrified by the reality that their 'total product' isn't superior anymore, hell it isn't even up to par for the course in many areas, and they write an edition of the game like their share of the market depended on it.

I don't think another game's success really has much to do with GW. (The fact being that War Machine and Hordes are nowhere near as popular as 40k or WHF comes to mind, however. And frankly, PP models make me want to throw up. At best, it's what 4th Ed. D&D minis should look like, IMO.) I can't really speak to second edition as I haven't played 40k for that long. All I know is that I enjoy the game a lot more than when I started to get interested (at the end of 3rd/beginning of 4th) and then totally lost interest because the models and books didn't seem worth it and the rules seemed to be--again IMO--focused on power gaming rather than balancing strategy and planning with the totally unexpected. I got back into 40k about the middle of 4th and was a bit pissed to have to buy 5th (was pretty poor at the time) but have turned out to be very pleased with it. Every 5th Ed Codex I've bought (all of them) has been really interesting. Orks (ok, techinically 4th) made me think about actually fielding an ork army--something I've never had any interest in doing before. Conversely, although I've often wanted to play Necron I wouldn't waste the time with their current codex. So combine that with the fantastic model releases (in terms of looks and what comes in the box) and you can see why I'm pretty positive about GW right now. Space Hulk, to me, is a huge indication of how the company is doing. That could have been awful if half the stuff that dakkaites, especially the old timers, complain about was actually true. As it actually turned out: extremely impressive. I don't expect to change anyone's mind on this. Old grudges go too deep, I know.

Hell, Im a fan of GW's work. I love my chaos - as is - but I eagerly await its revision also. Models are getting better all the time, and Im enjoying my gaming.

Golden age - maybe, maybe not, but I do see steady improvements.

I might be a lonely voice in the crowd, but thats ok, as a die hard nerd, im used to being unpopular .

Manchu wrote:Ah, BroSRM, you made me remember the greatness that is DoW (am I asking for it yet again?) and the UM movie on it's way. These are good days, I tell you.

All that aside, right now is the age of Devlan Mud. Never before was talent so readily available for so little time and money. Seriously, that stuff is the shiz-nite. I've been chugging away at a Battlewagon (another great kit) for weeks, and just tonight I washed the whole thing in sweet, sweet Devlan Mud. I used about a third of a pot, and my head hurts more than a little bit from the stench that stuff puts off, but that wagon is looking great. And it dries when you sleep!

I'll echo HBMC's sentiment that this is the golden age of modeling. Citadel is putting out some of it's best models, and doing some things with plastic we would have thought were impossible but 4 years ago. The media expansion of GW is pretty good too, with the excellent Dawn of War games (barring Soulstorm), the upcoming Space Marine game, and the Ultramarines movie. Who knows how good the last two will be, but the marketing they'll bring in should be a nice new injection of players, even if only a handful of those stick around for more than a few months.

The pendulum will swing and we'll eventually get back to WD army lists, more balanced books, and a tighter ruleset. Best of all we'll still have tons of lovely models from these days. Maybe that's a bit too optimistic, but it's what I really hope happens. But then again, maybe it's the Devlan Mud talking.

We even have a Chaos player who is happy with Chaos in here now. Can I assume that part of that is because you believe that GW will give you support and a fair shake on your codex eventually (sooner rather than never)?


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@Brother SRM: You replaced Gwar! in my sig, mate.

There is no 'golden age' as such, the real 'golden age' is the years when you start gaming, especially around the ages of 11-14; this can get them hooked for life, or at least look at it fondly and are likely to revisit.

GW has a lot of colourful history. Some people could say their Golden Age was before the Citadel buyout, or whenever during the history of the company.

Have a read of this:

http://www.vectormagazine.co.uk/article.asp?articleID=42