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Hi all,

I ordered the "open fire" starter set and I have a few questions.

I like armor and I think that the color scheme of the "GE031 Panzer III G" shown at www.flamesofwar.com looks cool (If you don't care to look, the tank is painted "black" or something very close - perhaps "german grey"?). What sort of list would include tanks painted in this color? Are the troops painted in similar colors? Please don't laugh! It almost seems like I could paint vehicles like this by painting / primering them "codex grey", painting the edges in some shade of white / light grey, and then washing black until they get dark enough.

Is this paint scheme something that would be used in urban combat? The tank is marked "mid" and "late" so I might try the fortress europe book, right?

What sort of American forces might this sort of tank have met in combat (if any)?

In summary - I like the dark colored German armour and would like to move in that direction starting with the stugs that come with "open fire". I would like to build an equivalent American army starting with the "open fire" shermans. I'd also like to acquire / build some terrain that would go along with these two armies. I slept through history class when I was a kid so (as you can see) I'm ignorant when it comes to WWII history.

Hopefuly I'm not being annoying!

Edit: Learned a little bit about the tank I was looking at..

"The initial main tank of Rommel's Afrikakorps and used extensively at the start of the Invasion of Russia."

Box is marked "early" (which seems bad) and "mid".

The color scheme you're looking at is a Mid-War scheme used by the Germans until 1943 or some time around there. The list you'd be looking for would be a Mid-War one and if you're trying to include Americans in that as well you'd want the new North Africa book which covers American, British, German and Italian forces fighting in North Africa and Italy from 1942-1943. From my understanding (I'm not a history expert) the dark grey scheme was used almost exclusively on the Eastern Front against the Russians, because grey doesn't blend too well into the desert. When the campaign moved to Italy in 1943 I'm pretty sure the Germans had phased the grey out and moved to the Dunkelgelb (dark yellow) scheme that they used for the remainder of the war. If you're looking to field a Late-War company you'd want Fortress Europe which has American, British, German, and Soviet forces from January-August 1944 included in it.

German infantry wore the coal bunker helmet that everyone is familiar with, which is close enough to the grey you're talking about, and their fatigues were a grey-greenish color during the Mid-War. As the war progressed they started wearing three color camouflage helmet covers and smocks so you'd get a mix in the units. Unless you're talking about SS because they had their own variations of camouflage. In all the history books I've read I didn't come across any mention of different urban combat uniforms for either side, so you wouldn't have to change the uniforms for that sort of thing at all.

The StuG was the most widely produced armored vehicle in the German inventory, so you don't need to worry about exactly what sort of American force it was up against. I'm sure that at some point in the war pretty much every type of American unit, in both Italy and Europe, was up against a StuG.

As a word of advice, if you're looking to build a force based off of the contents of the starter box you might want to stick to Panzer IV H models to go along with your StuGs so you could field either company as a Mid or Late-War force. The Sherman was used by the Americans through the entire war, so that's not much of an issue if you want to make a dual period American force.

Hope this can answer all your questions.

IamW,

Thanks very much for the reply. While I was waiting for a response, I continued to research feverishly and came up with the following page:

http://www.panzerworld.net/colours

It pretty much confirms what you wrote.

The article starts by stating the following:

"On 1940-06-12, it was ordered that units would be issued paint, rather than having to buy it from the suppliers, and that only Dunkelgrau would be issued. On 1940-07-31, it was ordered that all tanks should only be painted in Dunkelgrau Nr.46. This was in order to save paint. Dunkelgrau Nr.46 was renamed Dunkelgrau RAL 7021 on 1941-02-10."

..and then continued with this:

"On 1941-03-17, it was ordered that all vehicles in Africa should be painted Gelbbraun RAL 8000 and Graugrün RAL 7008"

Ouch, that left me thinking grey was only used from 06/12/40 to 03/17/1941.

I searched through the article for "Dunkelgrau" and found a bit where it spoke of the Germans whitewashing dunkelgrau tanks to camouflage them for winter combat in 1944. The article goes on to state:

"Especially until 1943-02-18, the dark colour of Dunkelgrau RAL 7021 and Dunkelbraun Nr.45 could make it difficult for the vehicles to blend in properly, however while driving, a lot of dust or mud (depending on weather conditions) would quickly cover the vehicles. Although mud would have to be removed from movable areas, it could still provide a camouflage effect, and has even been seen intentionally smeared over vehicles. In Africa, some of the Dunkelgrau RAL 7021 painted vehicles were even painted with such mudpaint, made from desert sand and water."

I guess this gives me a window running from 06/12/40 to some time in 1944.

When i read the wiki about panzer IV's, I see this:

"Two hundred and twenty-three Ausf. Es were produced between September 1940 and April 1941."

The IV E on flamesofwar.com is painted gray, but not quite the gray I like. I think I can definitely paint mine the dunkelgrau shown on this chart:

http://www.afrikakorps.org/_photos/Color/DAKColor.jpg

..no troops who wear dunkelgrau uniforms eh? Kind of like nazi zombies..

Edit: ..just saw where you recommend H so I can be flexible with mid or late. Am I being a weenie about this color thing? Should I just get H's and paint them bloody dunkelgrau?

To be honest you don't have to stick to historical accuracy if you don't want to, I was just giving you the historical rundown as best I could. It's your army, paint them how you imagine them. I've seen pictures of a Soviet Armored Battalion painted hot pink. Historical accuracy will only dictate as much as you let it. If you really want your company tanks to be that color paint them that color.

The first thing you need to do is choose a period:
- Early, 1939-1941
- Mid, 1942-1943
- Late, 1944-1945

Per now the period that has the most books, units and general support is Late War or LW for short. Early War will be next year I think while Mid War has Afrika and Ostfront at least.

Choose period, then choose the book that will give you the force that you want. Go to the online store on flamesofwar.com, if you click on an item it will say what it includes. This goes for most of the units and books that they sell.

A bit of prep work needed as it`s built up in a different way to a GW game when it comes to books and such but welcome to a great game though

R

IAmTheWalrus wrote:

If you're looking to field a Late-War company you'd want Fortress Europe which has American, British, German, and Soviet forces from January-August 1944 included in it.

Ok, thanks to both of you for your help. I've settled down on tank colors a little and I'm slowly coming around to focus on what's important.

I think you're right with "Fortress Europe". If I get this book, I can easily create American and German armies that make sense and I can buy some scenery for some battles in Europe.

Red Skullz, this matches up with what you suggested as I will select "- Late, 1944-1945" for my period.

No probs mate

Fortress Europe is the main book for Late War and what`s great about it is that you get the three main company types:
- infantry
- mechanised infantry
- tank
(some other types as well but they`re variations of the above)

For the big four nations:
- Germany
- USA
- USSR
- Great Britain

I have the book myself and it`s a great tool and pretty much all you need including the main rulebook. Play through the Open Fire scenarios a few times with the rulebook and you should be ready for some larger games as you get your units ready.

Good luck!

R

If you are going for the Late War and on a tight budget then I highly recommend buying or borrowing if possible a Fortress Europe Book and reading through the possible Army Lists before buying anything additional.


Not all Company formations allow the use of all equipment and it can get costly to buy equipment just because it looks cool (my approach) then buying a book later and finding out that half it cannot be used in one list.

Fortunately for me I found a list in Operation Cobra that allows me to field everything I bought. (American Late War).


I enjoy the miniatures and have had fun painting them so far.

Havent actually played the game yet though.

Daquack wrote:
I enjoy the miniatures and have had fun painting them so far.

Havent actually played the game yet though.

^^Haha.. Story of my life right there. I ordered "Fortress Europe" today and will be holding off on buying anything else for now. I very nearly bought a 1500 pt panzergrenadier box set the other day because it was being offered at 40% off, but I was proud of myself for holding off. My plan is to get my books, put the models that come with "open fire" together, paint them, and then use them along with some proxy pieces to play a 600 pt per side battle (probably will use the lists that "George", the guy with the Han Solo avatar, posted).

I'm trying hard to curb my habit of overwhelming myself with hoards of minis.

Flames of War is expensive (but comparied to GW........ well yeah) so you should have a look at www.warweb.com. You can get an entire Infantry Battalion for the same amount it will cost you for a FoW Infantry Company.

General Stubbs wrote:Flames of War is expensive (but comparied to GW........ well yeah) so you should have a look at www.warweb.com. You can get an entire Infantry Battalion for the same amount it will cost you for a FoW Infantry Company.

There are a ton of minis on that site.. Is it the Old Glory stuff that you're talking about or some other line? Thanks a bunch for the heads up.

Edit: Holy good grief. 3 panzer IV H's for $13! I found a great review that shows them compared to Battlefront..

http://wargames.nordalia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=60&Itemid=65

Wow!

Yes, it's the "Old Glory" miniatures originally made for the "Command Decision WWII" rules that you want.

The great thing about historical miniatures is that a single company can't patent the design! This means that we gamers can choose from a vast variety of price points and quality levels.

Other excellent alternatives are Peter Pig (www.peterpig.co.uk), QRF (www.quickreactionforce.co.uk), and Quality Castings (http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=6_8&sort=3a).

Old Glory have the most competitive prices, but their models are known to be lackluster at times. And as the Nordalia reviews have also noted, they always come with a ton of flash!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, one rather important point to note is that there are actually two distinct companies that are both called "Old Glory".

The actual name of these companies are "Old Glory 25s" and "Old Glory 15s".

When people refer to "Old Glory" miniatures in general, they are actually referring to "Old Glory 25s" (which is what WarWeb.com carries).

Miniatures made by "Old Glory 15s" is sold through their official website (www.oldglory15s.com), and are generally referred to as "Quality Castings" or "Battle Honors".

Took me quite some time to figure this out.

Quick question about Old Glory stuff..

A battlefront rifle platoon contains:

1 Officer, 3 NCOs, 3 BAR gunners, 1 bazooka team (2 miniatures), 31 riflemen, 2 small and 9 medium bases.

Does this mean I need to purchase a command, bazooka, HMG, and infantry pack (each with 50 figures) from Old Glory? Does the Old Glory stuff come with bases?

Or maybe you guys just purchase vehicles from OG and get your infantry from battlefront?

mgraham wrote:Does this mean I need to purchase a command, bazooka, HMG, and infantry pack (each with 50 figures) from Old Glory?

Unfortunately, the answer is "yes". In fact, this was actually the norm for historical miniatures, until Battlefront stepped into the picture with their "one-stop shop" approach.
With any other makers, you tend to end up with quite a lot of extras... especially ones from the lesser-used packs like command.

Another point of consideration (other than the obvious price difference) is how the actual miniatures look. The proportions on Battlefront's miniatures tend to exaggerated, almost to the point that some of them look like GW's "heroic" sculpts.
On the other hand, miniatures from Old Glory and QRF lines are sculpted with more realistic proportions.

Of course, this is something that is totally dependent on personal tastes. In my case, I like the "heroic" proportions on sci-fi/fantasy figures, but can't stand it when they are applied to historical ones.

mgraham wrote:Does the Old Glory stuff come with bases?

Unfortunately, the answer is "no". You'll have to either purchase the Flames of War bases, or make them yourself out of plasticard (my preferred approach), MDF or some such.

Battlefront eases up on a lot of the usual tedium of assembling a historical force, but I guess you have to pay for that convenience.

angelbleu wrote:
Stuff snipped

Thank you so much, you have been awesomely helpful. Everybody who posted to my "help a newb" thread has been great, thanks so much to you all.

You're welcome, mgraham. And welcome to historical wargaming!

I was a totally clueless newbie not so long ago, so I'm only too happy to be able to help out another newcomer.

There is one very important thing that you may want to remember: The great thing about historical wargaming is that you don't need to be trapped in a single rule set!
This is something that people coming from GW products (like me) often fail to see.

While Flames of War is a great place for a newbie to start, there are many other options such as Rapid Fire!, Blitzkrieg Commander, NUTS! and Disposable Heroes.
This is just a tiny set of alternatives; there are are literally hundreds of them!

Each rule set has a particular focus (battalion-level, company-level, platoon-level, etc) as well as distinct strengths and weaknesses.

This is another matter of personal preference, but there are quite a number of people who feel that Flames of War is too "gamey" and "unrealistic" for portraying World War II battles.