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Hi all,

At the moment I am just a 40k player (CSM and Eldar), but I have been eyeing Fantasy with interest for a while. Last weekend I was down at my local GW store, talking to the redshirt there about it, and he told me that in January they are starting a low-points campaign for Fantasy, although not a traditional 'capture and hold' campaign but more of a story-driven sort of thing. He suggested participating would be a good way to get into Fantasy, if I could get an army together in time.

I have always liked the look of the Dark Elves model, and to my surprise he told me that no one he knew of who currently plays at the store runs a Dark Elf army. He also said that picking up the Dark Elf battalion would be a good place to start, as I could just 'add a few things' to it to have a workable army.

So here's my question: I picked up the Dark Elf codex and have read through it, and have the Fantasy rulebook coming in the mail. I have a basic understanding of the Fantasy rules, but never having actually played, I'm still not proficient in what makes a really decent force.

Assuming that I start with the DE Battalion, and that this campaign is going to be in the 750-1000 point range to begin, what models would those of you with more experience suggest picking up along with the Battalion to give me a decent starting army?

Thanks for any help!

If you don't mind making a few people whine, a Hydra. Honestly, so long as you use it sparingly and just mostly as a scary threat on the table, people shouldn't be too offended. Now, if you roll in and lay waste to blocks of infantry left and right with it, because you really can, then you won't be keeping many friends.

If you don't like the GW model for the Hydra (I know I don't), may I suggest Reaper's version? It does not come with a base or beastmasters, so you'll need to find someone willing to part with a Chariot base or order it separately. I personally like the old-school editions of the beastmasters so much more than the current ones. GW will charge $14 a piece for these little models but you can find them online or in the Dakka Swap Shop for less, that's how I got mine. If you use bargain places you can get the kit at the same price GW wants for one of their Hydra sets.

I would have to advise against picking up the Dark Elf Battalion, as a lot of the models that are part of the Battalion aren't as good as other choices from the Dark Elf Armybook.

For a 750 - 1000 point Army, I would consider the following:

At this points range, you need to have two compulsory Core choices. I would advise a unit of 10 Repeater Crossbowmen and a unit of 5 Dark Riders with Repeater Crossbows and a Musician. This will be 217 points, and will require you to purchase one Dark Elf Warriors box, and some Dark Riders. A lot of people buy the Wood Elves Glade Riders box and use left overs from the Dark Elf Warriors box to convert the Glade Riders to Dark Elves with Repeater Crossbows.

A third Core choice (which doesn't fill your compulsory Core choices) should probably be 5 Harpies. These are the best 55 points you will spend in any Dark Elves list.

You are going to want to fill your one Rare choice available to you at this points level as well, as the Dark Elves Rare choices are very strong. Both the War Hydra and the Repeater Crossbows are strong.

You're army is going to need a General as well. This really comes down to: Do you want to take Offensive Magic or not? If you do, then you are going to want at least 1 Sorceress (if 1000 points, then probably 2). If you don't, then the Master will probably be your General.

Depending on how many points you have left, and what your personal preferences are, you can then field a Special unit or two. I would advise you to bring Shades, Black Guard or Cold One Knights, whichever you like best.
Cold One Knights are best in units of 6 (no Champion required). If you intend to join a Master to them, then I would advise to bring a unit of 5, and upgrade one of them to a Champion.
Black Guard are most often fielded a unit of 14 (7x2), with a Standard Bearer with the Standard of Hag Graef and a Champion with the Crimson Death.
Shades are often fielded in units of 6-8, though the size of the units is less important for them, as they are skirmishers who's main role will be shooting.


I would also like to direct you to the following website about Dark Elves: www.druchii.net

I picked up a Battalion as my intro to Dark Elves. I will agree that it contains things that you might not use, such as Corsairs, because they are suboptimal. Personally, I've been using mine as Counts-As Witches lately simply because I like Witches more. However, I feel the box is a great purchase because you do get a lot of models at a good discount, especially if you can buy it from an even further discounted place. The models can all be used all through small to large games and you get a ton of bits left over for conversions.

You get a bunch of Warriors and can use them as a full Spearmen block for SCR or future Sacrificial Dagger Sorceressing, or as 2x10 Crossbowmen. The kit does not come with enough Shields for all twenty of them, but only the most anal of WYSIWYG players will give you any grief.

If you happen to like Corsairs (keep in mind they aren't bad, just suboptimal), the models look fantastic and you do get enough bits to make them as RHB or AHW variants. Both variations have their uses: RHB as 10-strong squads of anti-light cavalry and march-blockers, 14-strong AHW with the Frenzy Banner can put out a respectable amount of attacks to shred basic RnF while keeping a 4+ save against ranged attacks, not too shabby.

I prefer my CoK to be run as a relatively inexpensive 5-man group. It helps that this also comes in the Battalion kit. This is a great unit. It's not so amazing as to be obligatory, but you can't really go wrong with a 5-elf crew and no command upgrades. You can start adding bodies, command and upgrades if you want, but they lose their points-efficiency very quickly at that point.

While Black Guard truly are nice, they are incredibly expensive for low-points games. That 14-strong unit with ASF and Crimson Death Champion is 270pts. That's not including a Master who, even cheaply, can rank in at 120+ points alone. Even further, these are metal minis and unless you find a deal on them, the added cost to a starter army can be pretty lofty.

As stated by Airmaniac, Dark Riders and Harpies are awesome. They provide decent harassment, march blocking, war machine hunting, etc. Harpies aren't as good in melee, but at 55pts for a base unit what more could you want? One unit of Harpies will do you fine up to 1500, though you may definitely find use of another set of them when points allow. While Dark Riders are great, they are also pretty expensive points-wise and if you already have the Battalion Box, Warriors are a fine core for low points games and you can still find use of them later on in larger games (particularly crossbowmen). That said, if you do not pick up the Battalion Box and don't mind a little conversion work, Dark Riders are still great for filling Core requirements with fast cavalry.

I think if you addto the battleforce some harpies, a master on cold one, a sorceress and more troops.

This would give you:

A master on cold one with a 5 cold one knight body guard that can be used as a hard hitting flanking unit.

two blocks of Xbow men that can deal out a lot of fire. Add a soecererss to theese and you have poweful magic, add a a sacrifical dagger and you will rarely fail to cast

20 corsairs that can deal a lot of attacks and will add a lot of points int combat due to rank bonus. These will make a mess of lightly armoured troops.

A standard unit of spearmen, more troops, though these could be dropped without much consequense.

Harpies for march blocking.

You could add a hydra, but people tend not to like theese especially in a friendly beginner campaign, i would leave one out. Elite units like black guard or executioners are good if you can fit them in your points total.

Nice advice everyone. Kirb, you mentioned that you can use the Warriors included in the Battalion to make 2x10 xbowman. The box says it comes with 16 xbowmen and 12 Spear/shield. Does it have four extra bows so you can make 20 xbowman? Or would I need to pick up another box of Warriors to get enough bitz?

Otherwise though, that sounds like a pretty cool deal. Do you use a Dreadlord model as a Master? There arent any specific Master models, I notice. So if I picked up the Battalion, a Dreadlord on a Cold One, and a Repeater Crossbow + maybe some harpies, would I have the makings of a decent beginner army?

Exaar wrote:Nice advice everyone. Kirb, you mentioned that you can use the Warriors included in the Battalion to make 2x10 xbowman. The box says it comes with 16 xbowmen and 12 Spear/shield. Does it have four extra bows so you can make 20 xbowman? Or would I need to pick up another box of Warriors to get enough bitz?

Otherwise though, that sounds like a pretty cool deal. Do you use a Dreadlord model as a Master? There arent any specific Master models, I notice. So if I picked up the Battalion, a Dreadlord on a Cold One, and a Repeater Crossbow + maybe some harpies, would I have the makings of a decent beginner army?

The battalion comes with 7 warrior sprues, each of which can make 4 spearmen or xbowmen (elves?). However, they only include 3 sprues of 4 shields each.

So you could make 28 Spearmen... but only 12 would have shields. 28 Xbowmen would be a much better choice, in my opinion. Then you scatter a few shields among the xbowmen (they are allowed to take shields as an option) so you have a (barely) adequite Close Combat unit... that can throw a lot of shots around. They work even better on a hill - you can rank them up a bit to improve their SCR and still project maximum firepower.

Exaar wrote:
Otherwise though, that sounds like a pretty cool deal. Do you use a Dreadlord model as a Master? There arent any specific Master models, I notice. So if I picked up the Battalion, a Dreadlord on a Cold One, and a Repeater Crossbow + maybe some harpies, would I have the makings of a decent beginner army?

Yes Dreadlord and Master models are the same thing. If you have 2 in the army just paint their armor different or something so you know which is which.
I would not put shields on the xbows as they are not worth it imo. I would also not take any DE magic, Magic at this points lvl tends to be d6 shooting spells and you can afford a few casulties along the way.

I would get 2 Bolt throwers because you can field them in squads of 2 and you increase your chances of killing things.

I second making the battalion all xbows. If you do that and add Bolt throwers and the CoK as a counter punch unit your off to a good start. You may also want to experiment with a Culdron at this points limit.

I'm a little confused at the suggestion to go all-shooty and then mention the Cauldron as it is supremely melee-oriented. I really don't feel the Cauldron is worth using at this points level. I did it for three 1k games, each time its blessings were not worth 1/5th of my army. I've also tried out dual-sorc lists at 1k. As previously mentioned, magic this low tends to be underwhelming.

Taking dual Bolt Throwers both costs more and is overall less effective than a Hydra at low points levels. While agreed that Hydras are pretty nasty, you can choose to not rampage people's armies with them. Just use it as a scary thing pointed at elite units rather than running down a flank and sweeping across the entire line.

Regarding all-crossbows vs Spearmen, I personally have a block of 20 Spear and Shield Warriors. I've used them in a few games, and in each one they didn't really do a whole lot for me. Honestly I think most of the issue was the way I used them, hanging back defensively rather than getting a block of SCR in the way of my opponent's infantry. I'd probably make the 2x10 Crossbow units, then fill out the others as Spearmen. If you ever run Sacrifical Dagger Sorceress, you'll want Spearmen as your battery, not Crossbowmen. Further, while you're learning you can just put the spears at the front of a 20-person block and say they're all spears without any arguments from civilized people.

You don't really need more than one Master at 1k, but if you're going for low-funds startup army then a pair of Heroes can really pad out a 1k list to cut down on necessary model count.

I personally bought a battalion and 2 boxes of warriors, and a hydra as my starter force. I made the warriors as 2 units of 10 crossbows, and 2 units of 20 warriors with full command. That is all the warriors you are likely to need at any point level. As I expanded I acquired first 15, then 20 black guard, then 2 units of 5x dark riders. Shades are also not a bad incremental increase to add. A small unit of shades is very cheap, under 100 points, and very effective with their scouting ability and BS 5 RxB and ability to take GWs.

I try to have all the character options that I actually would take, what I own currently is: noble on cold one, 2 foot sorceresses, noble on foot, death hag with cauldron, sorceress on dark pegasus, noble on manticore, and I converted a sorceress on dark steed (using a dark steed and the mounted sorceress that comes in the combo pack with the foot one) I also converted a master on foot with BSB using the corsairs and CoKs bits.

I don't recommend going all out from the start buying characters of course, since you can only play with so many at a time, and until you have the units to support them, some just don't make sense.

As for the corsairs that come with the battalion box: I used one of them to make a BSB, looking back i should have converted a foot master out of them as well. I also made the rest up with FC. I don't often run them, but when I do I use 12 with 2hw, no command, or 14 with FC and frenzy banner. There is enough models in the box to make 2 units of 10 with FC also, though if you run them as 10 man units, it might be better to give them hand bows and no command. Not the absolute greatest unit, but at low points they do very well, if kept as a small unit.

Kirbinator wrote:I'm a little confused at the suggestion to go all-shooty and then mention the Cauldron as it is supremely melee-oriented. I really don't feel the Cauldron is worth using at this points level. I did it for three 1k games, each time its blessings were not worth 1/5th of my army. I've also tried out dual-sorc lists at 1k. As previously mentioned, magic this low tends to be underwhelming.

A fair statement. I was only suggesting the Cauldron as a possibility to experiment with. I probably should have just put that on its own line.

Kirbinator wrote:I'm a little confused at the suggestion to go all-shooty and then mention the Cauldron as it is supremely melee-oriented. I really don't feel the Cauldron is worth using at this points level. I did it for three 1k games, each time its blessings were not worth 1/5th of my army.

Agreed.

So, I ended up buying the Dark Elf Battalion and a Dreadlord on Cold One to start off. So now my question is: what do you guys feel is the best way to assemble these troops?

I found out the campaign in question is starting at 750 points.

I'm making two troops of 10 crossbowmen. For the corsairs, do I want them to have a musician/standard bearer/Reaver?

And what about the Dreadlord (or Master in this case). What's a decent way to kit him out?

I gave my master caledor's bane but thats because i normally play against high armour troops (dwarfs and WoC). A ring of hotek is a popular choice and the armour of eternal servitute makes your master very durable.

As for the corsairs give them 2 hand weaponds and FC, and a sea serpent standard.

Alrighty then

A Sample 750 List

Master-135
Heavy Armor
Shield
Sea Dragon Cloak
Cold One
Ring of Hotek

10 Crossbowmen-115
Shields
Musician

10 Crossbowmen-115
Shields
Musician

15 Black Ark Corsairs-175
Full Command

6 Harpies-66

Special

5 Cold One Knights-143
Musician

Master runs around with Knights, Xbows try to find a hill or something, and Corsairs will hold unit in place for knights to finish of. Harpies for March Blocking fun.

The Ring of Hotek isn't going to be very effective in a 750 points game. There won't be that many Wizards around, and most of them will probably be casting default Spells on 2 Power Dice only (against which the Ring of Hotek isn't very good). Also, the Master doesn't even have a Weapon besides his Hand Weapon?

Repeater Crossbowmen don't need Shields. Musicians aren't something I'd consider unless I had some points left.

Harpies should be fielded in a unit of 5.

The Cold One Knights need a Champion if the Master is going to ride with them (so your Master won't have to accept Challenges he won't win).

I'm not a fan of the Black Ark Corsairs at all. I'd rather replace them with a War Hydra (exactly the same amount of points).

All true, but I'm basing this mainly on what he currently owns, and what he plans to field based on the discussion.

Using just what you own a 750 list:

Master - Cold One, Hvy Armor, Sea Dragon, Shield, Crimson Death - 125

10 Xbows - 100
10 Xbows - 100
10 Corsairs - 100
10 Corsairs - 100

5 CoK - Champ and Standard w/Standard of Slaughter - 202

There are 20 or so odd points to play with so shields could be used (however imo they still are a waste of points).

The list is farily simple. The Corsairs are much better used as a counter charging buzzsaw than a standard block of infantry. If you don't want Crimson Death on your master - you can replace it with a Lance and Armor of Eternal Servitude to make him more survivable.

The list doesn't protect against magic but in all honesty there will be a max of one mage on the table and it will be shooting 2 dice spells which you have enough dispell dice for.

That's basically what I'm going for to start, Casper. Would you field the corsairs in two blocks of 10, or one block of 20?

2 Squads of 10 for your situation.

I personally only run them occasionally (unit of 14, 2 rows of 7, with banner of frenzy). Corsairs are not build for static resoultion thats what warriors are for (no fight in 2 ranks, bad save etc). I would set them up as a counter charge unit for anything that goes after your archers or as a combo charge unit for the CoK.

One issue with your Corsairs is that depending on the number of them changes how best to equip them. In a 7x2 formation and Frenzy banner, Additional Hand Weapon is the way to go for the extra attacks.

In a 5x2 setup, that's really more for anti-light cav, anti-march blockers, etc. so really like having the Hand Crossbow. Not taking penalties for movement or long range with an 8" shooting range makes them perfect for this and frees up your other units to do their job. Even if they do get charged, you get to stand and shoot at what's coming your way.