Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys, popping this here and in events, with a bit of extra info. This has been a constantly evolving project as we were planning this GT for only a few months since the announcement of the new Indy GT Circuit, and at the same time working out the lease with Granite Run Mall for a permanent gaming space to hold this, and many more, tournaments in. The new Bunker has had one event with 50 people, and this will be our first GT, with room for 80. We'll be keeping 25 tables permanently set up, and having events of one size or another most weekends of 2010. Over 2 dozen are 40k/Fantasy events, we have 3 scheduled for Warmachine Hordes, a 2 Day-2 Tournament Blood Bowl event in April, and 2 more GT's after this one. Yesterday I had a meeting with Jeff and John from Battlefront miniatures and we worked on plans for Battlefront to run three 2 day, 6 game FOW tournaments this year.

-50 Tabletops are finished.
-Over 500 pieces of scenery are done, with another 400 to be finished by the first GT.
-Arrangements made with the Bar in the Mall to stay open late on Tournament nights!
-A huge load of Forgeworld is on the way as prizes for the first GT, over 2000.00 worth, most of it Forgeworld.

And we have tickets to give out for both the Boston Brawl and The Mechanicon!

Should be a fun weekend, and good babtism by fire for the new Bunker.

Here's the final Rules and Information on the upcoming GT.




Open for Reservations!


The Saint Valentines Day Massacre is a two day Independent 40k Grand Tournament held in our new Gaming Bunker located at the Granite Run Mall in Media PA. This GT is part of Games Workshops new Independent circuit, and the top two overall winners will be given invites to the national tournament held at the end of the first season, in 2011, in Las Vegas.

Hosted by Mike Clark of Showcase Comics, and the NE BigGunZ gaming club.

Location: Inside the Granite Run Mall, 1067 W. Baltimore Pike, Media PA. 19063. The tournament is held in a separate area from the Showcase Comics store. Media PA. is in the western Philadelphia suburbs, about 2 hours from NYC, and 1.5 hours from Baltimore. The Mall is about 20 minutes off of 1-95 and the Philadelphia Airport.

Date: Saturday Feb. 27th, and Sunday Feb 28th. Three Games on Saturday, Two Games on Sunday.

Scedule: Check in on Saturday begins at 9am. Please check in at the desk and let us know you have arrived. Get ready to play, especially if your army takes a long time to unpack. Display bases are recommended, and can even give you some appearance points. Pairings will be posted 10:00 am.

Saturday
Game 1 10:15 until 12:45
Lunch 12:45 until 1:30
Game 2 1:30 until 4:00
Break 4:00 until 4:30
Game 3 4:30 until 7:00

Sunday
Pairings posted at 9:30
Game 4 10:00 until 12:30
Lunch 12:30 until 1:00
Game 5 1:00 until 3:30

Awards at 4:00 pm, (Assuming no chaos ensues.)

New: Registration may be done at the BigGunZ-NE website, http://www.biggunz-ne.com/index.php . This site is just going live, forums should be up soon, and we will be posting all the information for the events that Showcase Comics and the Big Gunz are hosting.

Army Lists must be emailed by noon on Friday, Feb. 19th. There will be a penalty assigned to your composition score for turning in lists late. A list turned in the day of the tournament may get you a 0, and may also prevent you from playing. Please turn in lists by the deadline. Email lists to MikenJudyc@aol.com
I had originally asked for lists by the 21st, I am changing this to allow more time for judging lists. Some of the judges will be traveling 2 hours on the prior weekend to judge army composition, and doing it a day or two before, or by email, isn't going to work for 80 people. Please have your list in by the deadline. We will be judging lists the evening of the 19th.



Players: 80 spots available for the main event. Reservations must be pre-paid.

Cost: 60.00 pre-paid by Feb. 21st, 70.00 if paid after Feb. 21st. Your spot in the tournament is reserved only after you have pre-paid.
Registration can be done at the BigGunZ-NE website, http://www.biggunz-ne.com/index.php


Hotels: Quality Inn (610) 565-5800, right across the street from the Mall, newly renovated.
Media Inn (610-566-6500), two miles away, cheaper, and not nearly as nice.

Prizes: Overall 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Painting 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Best General 1st 2nd, 3rd, and Players Choice. We have over 2000.00 in prizes for this event, most of which will be ForgeWorld model kits. (And spiffy trophies!)

National Tournament Invitations:
In addion to our other prizes, the top two overall players will receive invites from Games Workshop for the Nationals in 2011. If one of those players cannot attend, the player with the next highest overall score will receive the invite. If a player has already received an invite from another event, then his invitation will be passed on to the next person as well. The National tournament will be held in Las Vegas in 2011, at the end of the first Indy GT season. The only way to attend this tournament is two earn an invitation by taking one of the top two spots at one of the independently run tournaments.

What you should bring: Your army, codex, rulebook, dice, markers, templates, tape measures, and anything else you need to play. Glue for repairs is recommended. FAQ's for your army, especially ones you want to quote to your opponent, should be brought along.

RULES:

Judges ruling is final. Judges may use several methods to make a ruling. These include: looking at rules in a codex or the army book, asking for explanations from each opponent, asking other people for opinions or advice, looking at official FAQ's, or rolling a D6. Judges will do their best to be fair and accurate. Usually we get it right, but sometimes we screw up. When dealing with a judge, be polite, have some patience, answer his questions. Do not repeat your opinion over and over in an attempt to somehow overpower his mental resistance. Very Important: If you have a rules question, ask a judge to look at the situation during the game. 99% of the problems we can fix in a game, we are unable to go back to after the game is finished.

Army Size: 1850 points. You may be under 1850, but may not exceed it.

Game Length: 2.5 hours per game. You should not start a new round if you will not have time to finish it. If games do go over the limit, both players must finish their turns, and will be encouraged to 'hurry it up so I can get the next round started and you can go eat.' In an extreme case, I reserve the right to say "You're done, this is how I score your game". Please don't make me do this.

Army lists: All current 40k Codices, and the Blood Angels list from White Dwarf are allowable. You must have an army list, preferable done on army builder, or typed, but hand written is acceptable. The list must show all costs for your armies models, upgrades, etc. It must be in a easily read format, without abreviations, so that your opponent can easily confirm that the army you are playing is the one you have in your list. You should bring enough copies so that if an opponent wants to keep a copy of your list, you have it available. WE WILL NOT HAVE A COPIER, COMPUTER WITH ARMY BUILDER, OR INTERNET ACCESS AVAILABLE IN THE BUNKER. Please remember to bring your lists. It's your responsibility.

Scoring: Battle Points worth 110, Painting/Appearance worth 20, and Army Compostion worth 20, for a total of 150 possible points.


Note that their is no sports scores. This doesn't give you leeway to be a jerk, cheat, slowhammer, or anything else that would generally get you docked by your opponent. You're at a GT, not your garage, and I expect all the big boys to play nice. I reserve the right to enforce that if I have to. In past events, I've seen very little that needed my attention, with a couple noteable exceptions. If you do have a problem with an opponent, treat it like a rules dispute, call me over, and explain the situation. Slowhammer, or deliberately slowing down a game is not exceptable. Neither is being a slow player and bringing a horder army. Respect your opponent and speed up your play. If a game only gets 3-4 turns, then somethings wrong.

Battles: Five games worth 22 points each. All games will use scenarios with several objectives. Kill points will not be used to determine the entire outcome of a game, neither will victory points. Objectives in one mission might be a combination of things such as taking an objective, points for killing the enemies HQ choices or troops choices, controlling a movable objective, or preventing an opponent from getting into your deployment zone. Scenarios will be posted after the deadline for army list submission.

Painting: Painting/Appearance is worth 20 points. Painting will be by a checklist, with a team of judges scoring each army. The same judges will score all armies.

Painting Criteria

Basing: (0-2 points)
0 points: Basic sand, flock, gravel
1 point: Drybrushed sand and flock, painted pattern, drybrushed resin.
2 points: Sculpted bases, intricate resin bases, overall army theme. Bases have been painted to a high level, or have multiple levels of drybrushed efects and basing materials for a natural look. Water Effects or sculpted flames. Time has obviously been spent on each model's base.

Coherency and Theme: (0-3)
+1 point: Army has been properly put together, with no mold lines, excess glue, or gaps in the models.
+1 point: A consistant painting style was used. Colors, techniques, and style draw the army together.
+1 point: Overall or consistant army theme. Models are obviously all in the same army, with theme, basing, colors, or conversions
giving the army an overall look.

Highlighting, Washes, Blending, and overall army quality. (0-7 points possible.)
0 points: Why is this army here? It's not fully painted. No, primer isn't a color.
1 point: The army is fully painted. It lacks most highlighting. It might have a wash put over it or be dipped. Might have a couple
models that aren't really fully painted.
2 points: The army has dry brushing or some highlighting done to it. Possibly just on characters. It's a decent tabletop army. Much
better
than what you see at the typical gaming store, but still not really ready for taking to a GT. Could be obviously be dipped
and some details done. Could also be a work in progress with just basecoats and a wash. Little fine detail.
3 points: Complex dry brushing with several colors, or highlighting with more than one layer. Use of washes. Some detail work
done on most models. Characters have had highlighting and fine details added. An average army that you see at a large
tournament or GT.
4 points: Several layers of highlighting with smooth transitions. No clumsy drybrushing. Detail work done on most models: teeth, fangs,
claws, skulls, shoulder pads, etc. Characters stand out from the rest of the army. Better than average tournament army. Could
also be an army that would score a 5 or 6, but has some obvious flaws that knock it down some.
5 points: Skilled use of blending, washing, and highlights. Good attention to detail. A high quality tournament army.
6 points: As number 5, but to a higher level. You could see this army could easily compete for best painted at most tournaments.
7 points: Superb level of painting. Every model has had a lot of time and attention. All small detail work has been done on each model.
Character models have had hours of work done on each one and stand out. You could easily see parts of this army entered in
Golden Demon and making at least the first cut. Armies will rarely get this score.

Fine details, free hand, banners. (0-3 points.)
0 points: Little work has been done on details. Maybe simple white on teeth or claws. Army is finished, but not much work has been
done on each model individually.
1 point: Small details painted on most models. Fangs, claws, eys, belt buckles. etc
2 points: Nicely painted banners, icons, eyes, and simple freehand work. Rivets on vehicles stand out, searchlights painted like glass
Shoulderpad icons, vehicle numbers, tatoos or warpaint,
3 points: Incredible detail, extreme freehand on banners, tatoos, or flame effects. Eyes painted on all models. Fangs and teeth have
multiple layers. Wiring, rivets, and damage on vehicles stands out.

Modeling and Conversions (0-3 points)
0 points: Not much done to the army. Very vanilla out of the box. Maybe a couple of small things, but not very generic and minimal..
1 point: Some models have been reposed or had extra equipment added. Character or general has custom work. A vehicle has had
some bits of work done to it. Minor greenstuff work. Head or weapon swaps. Trophy racks, etc.
2 points: Either most of the army has had minor work done to it, or the army has some pieces that have had major conversions done
to them. Custom models, large amounts of good quality sculpting.
3 points: Major conversion work has been done to the army, and it's very obvious at a glance. Vehicles has extra armor, battle
damage, and unique elements.
Note: Conversion probably is the most wide open of catagories, ecompassing many different things. Subtle variations to high elves or necrons might be harder to pull off than flashy things on Orks or Chaos. Judges may use their discretion to give points in this catagory for a number of things that just don't fit elsewhere. An example might be a full army of forgeworld Deathkorp models. They aren't conversions, but a huge amount of time and effort is put into the finicky resin models, and the effort can give the end result a very nice look.

Display Board (0-2 points)
0 points: No display board, or something you just use to move models around with. Does not match your army, little work done.
1 point: A Basic board. Sand gravel and flocking, hopefully matching the army. Does the job, looks good.
2 points: A themed display board with scenic elements that match the army, and adds to the overall effect when displayed with the
army. Even a fabulous display board is only worth 2 points, so these may have a wide range of skill and looks.

Composition: Army composition is worth 20 points. This will be decided by a group of judges prior to the tournament. All players must submit an army list by Feb. 19th at noon. We will be judging army lists friday the 19th, and Sat. the 20th. If we recieve an army list past the deadline, the player will recieve a -10 point modifier to his overall score in the tournament. We also cannot be judging lists the morning of the tournament. If you choose to not submit a list until the morning of the event, in addition to the penalty, you will automatically be placed in the pairings with a minimum comp score. Please don't be late with army lists. It is especially unfair to other players for someone to turn in an army list after we have posted up scenarios.

Army composition is based upon 1 main criteria: How competitive is your list, in tournament style play, vs. other army lists. A 0-5 score represents very competitive armies such as double nob bikers, Vulkan Thunderhammer Dual Landraider, Mechanized veteran guard, Nidzilla, Dual Lash 9 obliterators, and similar armies. A 15 to 20 score represents weaker armies that will have little chance against many of the armies they face in the tournament. An example of this would be a pure Grey Knights list, or an aspect warrior list with no transports.

Pairings: Matches for round 1 will be based on your comp score. Harder armies will play sarder armies, softer play softer. Pairings will be lined up by comp score, and if several players have the same score, randomized. Pairings for round two will group players into 3 brackets: Those that accomplished the primary objective in the scenario, those that only accomplised the secondary, and those that accomplished neither primary or secondary. Comp scores will then be used to arrange the armies withing the brackets. Rounds 3-5 will all be done the same, with only battle points used to make pairings. If at all possible, we will try to avoid having players from the same club play each other in Rounds 1 and 2. Usually this is possible, sometimes it isn't.

Scenery: All scenery on the tables will be arranged by judges, and fixed in place. Players may not move, add, or change scenery. The exception, obviously, is adding a crater when a vehicle blows up, as described in the rules. We will have suitable pieces of scenery available when this happens, to mark the area.
Tables will have roughly 20%-25% of their area covered by some type of scenery as described on page 88 of the main rule book. It is recommended that players discuss scenery before the game. If you have a question, ask a judge.

Dice: Electronic dice rollers or RNG apps may not be used. You must bring your own dice to play with. It is each players responsibility to bring a set of fair dice. With the proliferation of 'custom dice' with one or more numbers replaced by symbols, there has been concern that some dice do not roll with an equal distribution of numbers. There are a few ways to address this situation. 1) Don't use one set of dice for your saves, and another for your leadership tests. You may feel they are 'lucky', your opponent may wonder though if there isn't a difference in your dice. Please use all the same type of dice for all your rolls.
2) If you have custom dice, ask you opponent if he minds you using them. If he does, just use other dice. I'll have dice available in this event. 3.) A player may request that both he and his opponent use the same dice. In that case I'll supply a set of dice and you both use them. 3) Since you have the option to object to a players dice, don't scream about it after the game. If you want someone to not use custom dice, or you have 'a bad feeling' about someone's dice, ask for new dice. Don't complain about it after the game.

Also, please be aware that perfectly random dice can still roll 6's or 1's in strange patterns, it's part of the randomness. I've got a masters in stats theory. So someone "Making 16 out of 17 3+ saves" is perfectly fine to me. It's easily in the realm of possibilities for 80 people playing 5 games each. Someone rolling 40% 6's in over a hundred rolls isn't. If I have to, I'll check a players dice. This means rolling them over 100 times, and isn't something I like to do, but you can't show dice are unfair without rolling them enough times to take advantage of the law of large numbers. So use some common sense before claiming someone is cheating with their dice.


- All models in your army must be painted and have finished bases. Models that do not make the minimum standards may not be used. Minimum for an army is the entire model has at least one coat of paint, and there are at least 3 colors used on the model. Primer Coat is not a color. By finished base we mean some type of flock, sand, gravel, or painted pattern. Bringing an unpainted army doesn't just mean a zero in painting. It also means you don't play.

-All models must be WYSIWYG, or pretty darn close to it. A clever conversion that skirts the line, but draws applause from your opponent is cool. "My red bolt pistol is a plasma pistol" is not. Your opponent should easily be able to identify your models from your army list, and not be taken by surprise during the game. If your list says 'hunter killer missle', you need to have one. If you by searchlights, have them on the model. Grenades, extra cc weapons, and other small items are generally not something you need to model, especially if they are standard equipment listed in the army book. Since most all Chaos Marines have an additional CC weapon, you don't need to glue little knives on their belts.

-All models must be complete without broken pieces, missing arms or guns. I understand things break in transit and during games. Not worried about that, more about the guys that doesn't have guns on his devastators or arms on his orks. We'll have glue and zip kicker availabe for quick repairs.

-Part of WYSIWYG is using the correct models: "I'm using Bloodletters on big rocks for my Bloodcrushers because I don't want to shell out the cash." isn't acceptable. " I hand sculpted all my models" is probably is fine, assuming some minimum sculpting skill and they look like what they should represent. If you have a question, call, or email with pictures. The main things that would make a model unacceptable are: extreme modeling to take unfair advantage of rules, ("my monstrous creatures are crawling which why they are all only 1/2" high", "My battlewagon is 24" wide so I can pivot it to get an additional 8" of movement to unload my boys and assault first turn", ) or very confusing to your opponent. ("Dryads are bloodletters, ghouls are horrors, and the giant is my bloodthirster, don't mind the square bases.").

-It's a GW sponsored tournament. A preponderance of your army should be GW models, or converted using GW bitz.

-Base size: Models should be on the proper size base, compared to the newest models of the same type. All terminators should be on 40mm, all bloodcurshers should be on 60mm round, etc. Monstrous creatures with 6 wounds from the new Tyranid Codex should be on a minimum 60mm base, or the base the trygon comes on. If you are totally against rebasing your army, bring some blue tack and stick them on the correct size base for this tournament.

Questions? Contact Mike Clark at MikenJudyC@aol.com or ShowcasePA@aol.com, or call Showcase Comics at 610-891-9229. Don't assume that how you play in your local group is the same way it will be played at the tournament. If you have a question, ask it beforehand.

Army comp? Mold lines? Dipping? Sheesh........

With nearly 75% of the total points based on battles and no sportsmenship I'm surprised about the army comp stuff. Seems like "ard Boys light, but with a comp score thrown in. Odd.....

Hopefully you get a good turnout.

asugradinwa wrote:Army comp? Mold lines? Dipping? Sheesh........
With nearly 75% of the total points based on battles and no sportsmenship I'm surprised about the army comp stuff. Seems like "ard Boys light, but with a comp score thrown in. Odd.....
Hopefully you get a good turnout.

Well, sure, it's just like 'ardboyz. Except we require painted and based armies, and have a comp score, and 5 games ove 2 days, and 20 times the prizes. Plust two tickets to LV. But other than that, yeah, just like 'ardboyz.)

And yes, getting a good turnout. People flying in from Maine, Florida, and the UK. About half the 80 spots are filled up.

Are point standings going to be posted between rounds to ensure correct swiss matchups due to battle points?

The "composition" element and early matchup guidelines seem like an easy way to throw in some shenanigans in favor of the "home team" guys. Not accusing, but strange for a non-sportsmanship tournament.

I've been looking forward to this one for some time. Sounds fun...see you there!

Beerfart wrote:Are point standings going to be posted between rounds to ensure correct swiss matchups due to battle points?

The "composition" element and early matchup guidelines seem like an easy way to throw in some shenanigans in favor of the "home team" guys. Not accusing, but strange for a non-sportsmanship tournament.

Yeah, that's about the third time someone has "not accused" me of having comp involved so I can cheat in favor of the local players.

Let's seriously address that, even though you may not have been serious throughing it out. I take it very seriously. None of the local players has enough cash, or blackmail pictures, to get me to compromise my morals and cheat so they can win a tournament. Not frigging worth it. I've owned my stores for 22 years, and reputation is something that takes years to build, and not much at all to tarnish.

I might make a mistake, but I would never cheat, pull shenanagin, or favor a local player. I'll be happy if a friend wins, just like any one else would be if you had a friend win. But I don't care enought to compromise my reputation or personal morals to do so. And since it would be stupidly obvious if I did, I'd take huge amounts of abuse for it.

I just committed to 15,000.00 in costs to set up a tournament area. Getting any of that back requires the goodwill and trust of both the playes and GW. If I cheat and use comp to favor a local, I lose that. Not friggin worth it.

I know some people don't like comp. You might even have had a bad experience at another tournament. But please don't bring this up again. It's very insulting to me to have people "not accuse" me of something I have not done, don't intend to ever do, and would be very stupid of me to do.

Not aiming this bit of venting at Mr. Beerfart, but at the several people, private and public, that bring this up from time to time. I know you guys see it as just another weapon in the war on comp, but I take it a bit more personally.

As to posting the standings between rounds, I'm going to try, but it may or may not happen. There is very limited time between rounds to get pairings done, and it gets chipped away by players wanting to ask questions, games running late, and the work of doing the pairings, and trying to doublecheck things over. First and foremost I want to get the next set of pairings announced. Posting scores between rounds is a secondary concern, especially if it's only use is to check to see if I'm pulling shenanigans to cheat and let a local win.)

There are reasons I don't have a sports score, and it's not so people can behave poorly. Talk to me about it over a beer. No time now, as I have two asshats named Al and Ludwig busting on me for why I'm not putting sound and glue on hills.

I'm assuming you meant sand and glue

I totally see where you're coming from as the organizer of this... and I'm looking forward to coming to one of your WFB events soon!

The sound is from us doing too much scenery and talking warhammer for 14 hours.) I think we've math hammered every army in 40k and fantasy at this point. Mall closed, 2 feet of snow. I begged security to please let me in my store so we could do scenery. Each of us is armed with a 2' hoagie and a 12 pack of coke. The goal this weekend was finishing 100 hills for fantasy, and 30 big multi tiered rocky outcroppings for 40k. We saw Avatar, I like rocks and greenery a lot now.

What, no interest in making a 'Hoth' inspired table right now?

Sponsor information that I posted on our site, and going up on the BGNE site tomorrow. Thanks to these folks for their generosity.

Two Tickets to Paradise

…..and other cool stuff!
The St. Valentines Day Massacre has found some nice people that want us to give even more stuff to the people attending our GT. First up, we have two other 40k Grand Tournaments that are offering tickets to their events.

Coming up on May 15th and 16th is the Boston Brawl. The BB will be hosted at the Cambridge Massachusetts Nation Guard Armory. This is the Brawl's first year, and it looks to be a great event. Details at http://www.bostonbrawl.com/. Our first overall winner will receive a ticket to the Boston Brawl, as he's going to need to keep in shape for Las Vegas.

After that, on Nov. 5th to the 7th, The Gaming Garage from West Chester PA. will be putting on
The Mechanicon . This weekend of gaming features a large 40k GT, a Blood Bowl Tournament, Zombies!, Munchkin, and lots more. We'll be giving our 3rd overall winner a ticket to the Mechanicon, so they have another chance at scoring an invite to the nationals in Las Vegas. Check out all the different events, and get the details at http://www.themechanicon.com. Paying back the favors, The Biggunz-NE will be giving both of these fine events a ticket to next years St. Valentines Day Massacre in 2011.

Showcase Comics will be sponsoring both of these events with prizes, and I expect you'll see quite a few familiar faces from the BigGunZ-NE there, coming to compete for the top spots.

Next we've got a some prizes from a couple of companies that make life much more enjoyable for gamers.

Gale Force Nine has been making hundreds of cool little products for years, from tokens and movement trays to a great line of tools, scenic materials, and now a line of 40k Terrain. A few folks will get the chance to play on tables with GF9 terrain, and a couple of you will be taking home some of their goodies. See the whole line of GF9 products on their website at http://www.gf9.com

And last in this list, but actually our first sponsor, is Outrider Hobbies. Bryan Wade from Outrider Hobbies has just started making a high quality line of foam trays for holding our precious toy soldiers. Showcase Comics is happy to be carrying their line of trays, and Outrider Hobbies is giving us some to hand out to a few of you. Check out their cool stuff at http://outriderhobbies.com

You can go ahead and put "Deadshane" on my free BostonBrawl entry ticket if you'd like!



See you guys in a week!

Scenarios are finished up, and I have two people checking them over for me for typos, (or suckiness), and I will be posting them up on Tuesday Night / Wednesday morning. We will have copies for of them posted at the tournament, and at each table. If you want a copy of your own, print one off after they are posted.

mikhaila wrote:

Beerfart wrote:Are point standings going to be posted between rounds to ensure correct swiss matchups due to battle points?

The "composition" element and early matchup guidelines seem like an easy way to throw in some shenanigans in favor of the "home team" guys. Not accusing, but strange for a non-sportsmanship tournament.

Yeah, that's about the third time someone has "not accused" me of having comp involved so I can cheat in favor of the local players.

I might make a mistake, but I would never cheat, pull shenanagin, or favor a local player. I'll be happy if a friend wins, just like any one else would be if you had a friend win. But I don't care enought to compromise my reputation or personal morals to do so. And since it would be stupidly obvious if I did, I'd take huge amounts of abuse for it.

I just committed to 15,000.00 in costs to set up a tournament area. Getting any of that back requires the goodwill and trust of both the playes and GW. If I cheat and use comp to favor a local, I lose that. Not friggin worth it.

I know some people don't like comp. You might even have had a bad experience at another tournament. But please don't bring this up again. It's very insulting to me to have people "not accuse" me of something I have not done, don't intend to ever do, and would be very stupid of me to do.

Not aiming this bit of venting at Mr. Beerfart, but at the several people, private and public, that bring this up from time to time. I know you guys see it as just another weapon in the war on comp, but I take it a bit more personally.

As to posting the standings between rounds, I'm going to try, but it may or may not happen. There is very limited time between rounds to get pairings done, and it gets chipped away by players wanting to ask questions, games running late, and the work of doing the pairings, and trying to doublecheck things over. First and foremost I want to get the next set of pairings announced. Posting scores between rounds is a secondary concern, especially if it's only use is to check to see if I'm pulling shenanigans to cheat and let a local win.)

There are reasons I don't have a sports score, and it's not so people can behave poorly. Talk to me about it over a beer. No time now, as I have two asshats named Al and Ludwig busting on me for why I'm not putting sound and glue on hills.

Interesting, now that the tournament is over lets examine just a couple of facts....

A VERY well known tournament player with a winning record set up in a mirror match with his 10 comp score 'Nids against a 1 comp score nid player.

Eldar flying circus scores a 16 in comp somehow while armies like ultra fluffy space wolves garner around 13 and footslogging sisters with no immolator spam snatch up a big 6 or 7!

Nothing but eyebrows raised all weekend concerning comp issues and matchups. Many dissatisfied tournament commandos concerning initial matchups. Why? Secretive comp scores and no point tallies posted. What's the big secret with tournament point tallies? Oh yea, maybe we wanna set particular people up.

Lets discuss....

Beerfart their is no need for that honestly as you are just trying to stir up trouble. As said countless times before with the plethora of tournies out there now take your pick. If you don't like the way one does it hey you can go to another as I am sure their is one out there that meets your liking.

ignore this, I'm a dummy and totally missed it :p

Necros... you can Time Travel?

Beerfart wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Beerfart wrote:Are point standings going to be posted between rounds to ensure correct swiss matchups due to battle points?

The "composition" element and early matchup guidelines seem like an easy way to throw in some shenanigans in favor of the "home team" guys. Not accusing, but strange for a non-sportsmanship tournament.

Yeah, that's about the third time someone has "not accused" me of having comp involved so I can cheat in favor of the local players.

I might make a mistake, but I would never cheat, pull shenanagin, or favor a local player. I'll be happy if a friend wins, just like any one else would be if you had a friend win. But I don't care enought to compromise my reputation or personal morals to do so. And since it would be stupidly obvious if I did, I'd take huge amounts of abuse for it.

I just committed to 15,000.00 in costs to set up a tournament area. Getting any of that back requires the goodwill and trust of both the playes and GW. If I cheat and use comp to favor a local, I lose that. Not friggin worth it.

I know some people don't like comp. You might even have had a bad experience at another tournament. But please don't bring this up again. It's very insulting to me to have people "not accuse" me of something I have not done, don't intend to ever do, and would be very stupid of me to do.

Not aiming this bit of venting at Mr. Beerfart, but at the several people, private and public, that bring this up from time to time. I know you guys see it as just another weapon in the war on comp, but I take it a bit more personally.

As to posting the standings between rounds, I'm going to try, but it may or may not happen. There is very limited time between rounds to get pairings done, and it gets chipped away by players wanting to ask questions, games running late, and the work of doing the pairings, and trying to doublecheck things over. First and foremost I want to get the next set of pairings announced. Posting scores between rounds is a secondary concern, especially if it's only use is to check to see if I'm pulling shenanigans to cheat and let a local win.)

There are reasons I don't have a sports score, and it's not so people can behave poorly. Talk to me about it over a beer. No time now, as I have two asshats named Al and Ludwig busting on me for why I'm not putting sound and glue on hills.

Interesting, now that the tournament is over lets examine just a couple of facts....

A VERY well known tournament player with a winning record set up in a mirror match with his 10 comp score 'Nids against a 1 comp score nid player.

Eldar flying circus scores a 16 in comp somehow while armies like ultra fluffy space wolves garner around 13 and footslogging sisters with no immolator spam snatch up a big 6 or 7!

Nothing but eyebrows raised all weekend concerning comp issues and matchups. Many dissatisfied tournament commandos concerning initial matchups. Why? Secretive comp scores and no point tallies posted. What's the big secret with tournament point tallies? Oh yea, maybe we wanna set particular people up.

Lets discuss....

Anyone has anything to say, feel free to call me. But I refuse to argue with annonymous internet trolls bravely throwing garbage out from behind the safety of their screen.

-Addressing the point about posting scores.: I am actually sorry I didn't get a chance to post up sheets with the scoring. If anyone noticed, I didn't really stop moving the entire time. I lost some help with the tournament, picked up all the slack myself, and some things slipped through the cracks. In the future I'm going to have a printer in the bunker to post up totals between rounds. It will save me time, and let print out pairings and postings easier.

Many players gave me feedback that they wanted quick rounds, and no big breaks. I'm going to ignore you all next time.

I need the longer time between rounds. People turned in score sheets with obvious mistakes, sometimes with no player names, and I had to hunt them down. I had little time to double check results. Players dragged out final rounds and immediately lined to up hound me for the next pairings.

I should have expected all of that, kept the time between rounds longer, and given myself time to print pairings, standings, etc. I know better for next time.

porkuslime wrote:Necros... you can Time Travel?

As a matter of fact I can, and in my fragile little mind february comes after march! If you think that's impossible, let me remind you that Canada won more medals than anyone else in the olympics, so anything is possible. Blame canada!

Comp pairings wouldn't be a problem if the people judging knew what a hard army was. It's obvious they don't. Beyond that I say it is impossible to judge a hard or easy army, the power behind an army is the person playing and not the list on paper. It is a shame they give Vegas tickets out to tourneys with that comp format in play. I guess they will give 2 GT tickets to a lot of things. I wonder if I can get 2 for a weekend pickup game?

Is it not possible that the people who know Mike well also know what he feels is a hard list and what units he feels should be in an easy list? Just from talking with him on the side for years they should have an idea of his thoughts on the subject. Seeing as he is grading comp and it is a secret to everyone else, would those people not have an advantage in the situation?

Finally I tyhink you have to many rules. Don't complain about your time involved if you are trying to do everything and be everything to everyone. One thing I learned in helping run Adepticon is that the more rules you have, the more opportunity for rules bending. Keep it simple, don't let them know where you stand on comp and beardy gaming situations. If they don't know the boundaries, they won't be able to run right up to that line and tiptoe along it for so long.

It is fair to say that comp was all over the place. The list below scored me a 4/20 and placed me in the WAAC bracket for not just one but two rounds because that's how the tourney worked. For some perspective, Necrons with 3 Monoliths and Deceiver scored 7/20, 3 points higher than me.

Hive Tyrant — Bonesword & Lashwhip, Stranglethorn Cannon, Adrenal Glands, Hive Commander, Old Adversary, Paroxysm, Leech Essence
2 Tyrant Guards — Lashwhips
3 Hive Guards
3 Hive Guards
2 Zoanthropes — Mycetic spore
Tervigon — Adrenal Glands (10), Toxin Sacs (10), Catalyst (15)
17 Termagants
10 Genestealers
18 Hormagaunts — Toxin sacs
18 Hormagaunts — Toxin sacs
Trygon — Adrenal glands
2 Biovores

This is not an over-the-top Tyranid list by any stretch. I think more clarity about the comp system would be helpful before I attend another tourney there. If I'd known the system gives triple Vendetta mech IG, double lash CSM, etc. middling to decent comp scores and just punishes Tyranids of almost any variety, then I just would have known not to bring Tyranids. Which is fine, I just would like to know. It seemed like the only folks fielding Tyranids were from out of town and other clubs, so the home team probably knew through some experience that Tyranids wouldn't fare well under that system.

Just so I'm 100% clear here -- I'm not trying to start trouble or claim shenanigans. I just think the home club probably had a better idea than the out-of-towners about what armies would be able to score well under the system and perform well at the tournament. Posting the comp requirements/rubric would solve a lot of these issues.

People seem to get offended when multiples of units are taken and are 'equipped' identically.

Maybe that's what happened to you?

gorgon wrote: Posting the comp requirements/rubric would solve a lot of these issues.

I agree with this 100% anytime comp is being used. I looked back on my previous post and I came off to harsh towards Mike. I don't mind comp and think even strict rules about comp can create a different game; challenging and still fun. However the comp rules, in all their glory, must be published beforehand to be fair. Even if a total stranger from another country were to judge comp so no one could know that persons prejudices towards certain units, it would still be unfair as it turns into a 'luck of the draw' for each army that is brought with respect to their comp scores. Was comp judged with a set of criteria or was it the old adage about porn 'I know it when I see it'?

Alpharius, I think that's part of it. I think that there may have been a "maxed troops" requirement too. Tyranids probably aren't going to fare well in either circumstance.

Just woulda been nice to know upfront, that's all. Again, I think heads-up of some kind would have avoided a few of the bruised feelings by some parties. There were some guys who were pretty upset, and that was unfortunate.

Again, not slamming the event. Personally, I had some fun games against good opponents and got to try out the new Tyranids against a few builds I hadn't faced yet.

I was the one running the footslogging sisters list for '7' points in comp. I have to say, I was astounded when I saw that the skimmer/aspect heavy eldar army with Eldrad more than doubled my comp score.

However, perhaps that player knew the locale and maybe the comp rules better and was able to "game" the system better than I.

I DID have some repetition in my army. Autocannons, 3xExorcist.... I suppose that was frowned upon, it didnt really matter to me in the end however. My battle performance prevented me from being any sort of "contender". I've got nothing to complain about. My opponents were good, terrain and the locale was great, games were fun. If any sort of shenanigans were going on behind the curtain it was of little concern to myself.

I WILL say however that without comp rules posted/stated ahead of time AND the lack of any point breakdown between rounds that there WAS a lot of discontent that I was privy to. I dont particularly think the way the event was run did very much to alleviate people's lack of trust concerning matchups/composition scores. This is NOT to say that the event was poorly run and that I would never return for another event. There was simply much discontent voiced and I think that could've been avoided by posting scores and having the comp system a little more explained ahead of time so that if people wanted to get a good score they could game for it like other people that may or may not have been "in the know".

I had a good time this weekend. There isnt really much call to bash on the people that ran this event. I think the general conscensus is that people had a good time but would've appreciated being more informed on what "good comp" was going to be at this event. That way there are less questions raised and less frustration for the tournament judges.

Good event, room for improvement. Bottom line, I had fun. (would've had more fun with a winning run, but I had fun nonetheless)

I look forward to next year when I try again. Wrecking Crew got shut out this weekend. We need to head back and redeem ourselves.

mikhaila wrote:

Beerfart wrote:

Interesting, now that the tournament is over lets examine just a couple of facts....

A VERY well known tournament player with a winning record set up in a mirror match with his 10 comp score 'Nids against a 1 comp score nid player.

Eldar flying circus scores a 16 in comp somehow while armies like ultra fluffy space wolves garner around 13 and footslogging sisters with no immolator spam snatch up a big 6 or 7!

Nothing but eyebrows raised all weekend concerning comp issues and matchups. Many dissatisfied tournament commandos concerning initial matchups. Why? Secretive comp scores and no point tallies posted. What's the big secret with tournament point tallies? Oh yea, maybe we wanna set particular people up.

Lets discuss....

Anyone has anything to say, feel free to call me. But I refuse to argue with annonymous internet trolls bravely throwing garbage out from behind the safety of their screen.

I wonder, did I break any Dakka tenents with my post? Did I lie about any of the above statements? Or did I simply pose a question for discussion?

Might we simply answer the question instead of throwing insults at the person asking the question?

My inquiries are still valid and I await an answer.

A poster asked for a representation of Mik, here goes.
I've known mike for probably 2 years, i'm local to the shop, but wasn't always. I've won a event or 2, gone winless at some, but never walked away unhappy. But my goal always is: gaming should be fun, with some competitive elements. I'm a great player, but I don't have to win to have a good time. 75% for the field are guys like me. Showcase Comics and Games to us is the best game in the area, we typically only shop from Mike and his shop as a result of it.

Fact: He's an awesome guy, incredible shop owner, and always seeks feedback at his events. His events are open and honest. You know what your walking into. He asks people to submit lists ahead of time so he can judge your lists against the entire field. As a shop owner, he will always have people turn up day of, and he and the other guys at the event try to help rate the comp. Keep in mind the following things as below. Also, he asks people to email him, pm through his website what worked, didn't work, or needs tweaking so he can learn from us, the tournment gamers.

1. Comp is not perfect, its the nature of the beast. There will be discrepencies in a field. If 90% of a field is rated fairly its typically a great day. I would agree 100% is the goal, but its unlikely. Why? Because its subjective. Typically 3 guys rate a list, and make a judgement call. I know the guys that rate comp, they are usually spot on, but are human. Guess what, humans can make mistakes. Just like some people can't trim mold lines, a comp judge might make a goof. It happens.

2. The scores are mostly battle for all the events in the shop. Sports is out the window. Paint IS required. I'm lucky, i'm local to his shop within 30 minutes. Most of my club mates drive an hour to two to come to these events. The events are HUGE for a RT event by a independent. Out of a 40-50 guy event, typically there is always a guy complaining about his comp. That's usually 1-2 guys, again if 1-2 out of 40-50 complain goal achieved. Not everyone's going to be happy, its impossible.

3. Beerfart: come to a few events, or even feel free to ask the TO ahead of time "what do you guys feel good comp is? Who is scoring the event? How are they scoring it?" Its easy to complain over the internet, go into the shop talk with th organizers in person. Intelligent discussions go a long way. You never know, maybe the comp guys at the event went "crap we called that wrong, better keep that in mind."

mikhaila wrote:Anyone has anything to say, feel free to call me. But I refuse to argue with anonymous internet trolls bravely throwing garbage out from behind the safety of their screen.

Well first of all my name is Rob Baer, aka MBG, and here are the problems as they were reported to me. So I will list in no uncertain terms why people are upset, and where you can improve in the future.

First of all I was not at the event, however with the amount of calls, texts, and pictures of the event I received over the weekend (while performing best man duties at my friends wedding) I feel as if I was.

Issue One You stated at the event that one of your comp criteria is that you ding 3 heavy lists on comp but you gave this mech eldar list a 16 comp. Now according to some this guy a friend / acquaintance of yours.



Also I am hearing that two different Nid lists with no heavies got below tens on comp, one nid zilla list got a 1 and one nid list got a 0 cause of Mawlocs (which when he submitted his list didnt know of your FAQ adjustments against the Mawloc). That would seem to contradict the 3 heavy criteria you stated to one participant above.

Here are other comp scores that I know of as well Monolith-Deceiver scored 7/20. Six dreads scored 12/20. Double lash oblit builds score 12-14, with the ladder being locals. I believe you stated double lash obits were a personal pet peeve and would be dealt with accordingly.

Now in the future I would recommend either not doing comp or being more transparent about it, aka the old GW comp list. As I previously stated you are giving away 10+ battle points to some lists for no reason. Bonuses like that make it nearly impossible to compete against.

I would also have all rules laid out in advance, and if FAQ's etc change before the due dates for lists/ touney date i would allow players with lists affected an adjustment penalty free.

Issue Two Missions scrawled on paper, no results postings between rounds. No results at the end. Again lack of transparency is the fuel of conspiracy and if you know people are suspicious about something why give them more leverage???

Issue Three Some pairings were done by strictly by comp, but yet opponents with differences with as much as 10 comp points were paired up first round. Why would that happen? I suggest you check your pairing matrix for future. Also some opponents were paired up twice in a row, but could not get your attention to get it fixed. With the short rounds they just duked it out again. Was the event staff sufficient? Was the event co-ordinater accessible?

Issue Four Submitting Army lists. Why is this even necessary? No other current tourney that I know of does that. I understand lists need to be checked, BUT seems like that can be done at the event, not in advance by several weeks. I also understand that you needed time to grade comp as well, but I think this whole issue is easily solvable by a strict set of guidelines of army construction that is easily check-able. This also alleviates any semblance of wrong doing.

When you have people coming to your event from up and down the east coast, with some as far away as Florida and Conn, fighting snow etc you really gotta be fair with everything. The age of the internets is here and things will be said both positive and negative. Not only is your rep on the line, but the rep of your store, and your fledgling gaming club offshoot.

njpc wrote:
3. Beerfart: come to a few events, or even feel free to ask the TO ahead of time "what do you guys feel good comp is? Who is scoring the event? How are they scoring it?" Its easy to complain over the internet, go into the shop talk with th organizers in person. Intelligent discussions go a long way. You never know, maybe the comp guys at the event went "crap we called that wrong, better keep that in mind."

Perhaps I was at this one and know exactly what I'm talking about....perhaps.

Did anyone else not see this on the showcase website:

Many people have been asking specific questions about rules, and others have been asking if we will be using any FAQ's such as INAT. After many hours of discussion, we are going with the following:

1) If you have a specific question about your army, please/email Showcase comics and games (njpc removed intial contact info). Especially if it affects how you make the list. If I think that clarification needs to be posted, I'll add it to our FAQ.

He asked people to contact him about your thoughts on your army essentially if you had concerns..

Beerfart~ I saw your post definitely notes you were. But i'm suggesting attending more than 1 event, and seeking some guidance on expectations for the future. I've also had the experience in going to an event with high expectations not being met (not at showcase of note). It leaves a bitter taste, but a lot can be done about it. I've sent letters to former tournament organizers with thoughts. Usually i've waited for a few days to a week after to really think through my responses and suggestions. I'm hoping you have better experiences down the line with gaming there or where you chose to go.

@Kesher

Both the Broadside Bash and the SoCal Slaughters (either the 40k or Fantasy) both require lists about 1 week early as they do primary match-ups for the tourney based on comp and both are Indy GT's of multiple year standings. Though judged comp doesn't add into overall it still makes it much easier for them to set the first 2 rounds up to deal with issues. I'm pretty sure there are more out here that require it but I haven't attended any others recently. So issue 4 is kinda moot. Though I do believe in transparency overall.