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After much work I finally finished my report on cheating during a top table match at Adepticon. I want to let you the community decide on does this behavior rise to the level of cheating or is it just a case of sour apples? Check out my blog for everything you need to know.

http://bloodofkittens.com/?p=3088

PS: Blackmoor was standing on table away so I want to know what his perspective is on this whole thing.

I posted my thoughts over at BoK, it bums me out to see garbage like this.. But hopefully with it being recorded and exposed, it happens less in the future.

It's tough to say if Nick was genuinely cheated out of a rightful win. One guy pulling junk like this over the course of a tournament throws off all the results.. Is he deserving of the win? I wouldn't say so. Can we say it was intentional cheating? Unlikely as well.

The first 2 vids can be summed up as sloppy play. Very sloppy. This guy needs to tighten up his game if he wants to play in major events. The third may not be intentional, but I'd still consider it cheating.

Is it just me, or is it that whenever there's a big tournie in america, there's about five people claiming one of the players is cheating?

It was clearly cheating. I didn't win. What? you have to play to win...nonsense! Where's the video!?!


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Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Ketara wrote:Is it just me, or is it that whenever there's a big tournie in america, there's about five people claiming one of the players is cheating?

Because it happens...

Ketara wrote:Is it just me, or is it that whenever there's a big tournie in america, there's about five people claiming one of the players is cheating?

And sometimes there is an actual video of a person cheating.

The first video actually reminded me of something I've heard about in other threads, but never actually seen. It looked like he was measuring for his short distances (5" fallback, for example) while having 12" or so of measuring tape out. I assume he was trying to see if his dread was within charging distance of the chimera (or something else in the area)? He seemed to do it all the time, so maybe not...easier to reach, or just cover for when it matters?


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Frazzled wrote:It was clearly cheating. I didn't win. What? you have to play to win...nonsense! Where's the video!?!


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Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Why? Do you care if strangers in general quietly stand by and watch your game? It's not like there's some secret move to victory you don't want discovered.

First point, I played Tim in the first round.
Second point, he did play w/ a four missile launcher Dev squad in the game we played.
Third point, I can't watch and listen to the videos from work so I cannot comment as to their contents, at this time.

Grimaldi wrote:The first video actually reminded me of something I've heard about in other threads, but never actually seen. It looked like he was measuring for his short distances (5" fallback, for example) while having 12" or so of measuring tape out. I assume he was trying to see if his dread was within charging distance of the chimera (or something else in the area)? He seemed to do it all the time, so maybe not...easier to reach, or just cover for when it matters?


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Frazzled wrote:It was clearly cheating. I didn't win. What? you have to play to win...nonsense! Where's the video!?!


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Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Why? Do you care if strangers in general quietly stand by and watch your game? It's not like there's some secret move to victory you don't want discovered.

Its a tournament. its my game. It would get me nervous. they can feth off and have no claim to be there with a camera.

I wouldn't allow a camera either. I also don't like it when people hover over and watch the game. That quickly leads into tabletalk by the people watching the game.


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I saw all 3 videos and I saw no instance of cheating in any of them.

Frazzled wrote:Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Camera shy, eh?

It is people like him that ruin the game for people like me.

So glad I choose not to play in tournies. Is this the wave of things to come? After every major tourney we'll have days and days of whining? And WTF is with people who are not playing being able to mill around the tables? When did the tourney scene become a spectator sport? I sure as hell won't play when you have dozens, nay hundreds of people stopping by to stick their face in your game, let alone someone shooting video. No thanks, how can that be fun?

Tim the Biovore wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Complete OT, but if I am playing a game and some putz start video taping I'd quickly start yelling at them/throwing large objects/unleash the wiener dogs of war etc. that'd be REALLY annoying.

Camera shy, eh?

It is people like him that ruin the game for people like me.

Yes, lawyers, vampires, and other creatures of the ngiht generally fear cameras, mirrors and other similar objects.

Its people like this that ruin the game for me.

I know everyone has the same question on their minds, so I'll be the jerk and ask it for everyone's sake.

Man his army list looks bad, how did he even make top tables?

Le Grognard wrote: how can that be fun?

Probably more fun than being cheated against.

Those camera angels... so 60's Batman!

Timmah wrote:I know everyone has the same question on their minds, so I'll be the jerk and ask it for everyone's sake.

Man his army list looks bad, how did he even make top tables?

3 rounds with 120 people = hard to guarantee everyone is getting proper pairings. Some top finishers went up against things like multiple mech guard, while others didn't even have to play a single "optimized" army list. Take Adepticon results with a grain of salt, perhaps?

In the third one he moved the scouts on the hill (3 of the models) with sniper models.

Unfortunately we don't see if he shoots with them. It jumped out because he does it very quickly whilst moving the assault marines.

I'd agree with Mundar, first 2 seem to be more sloppy play. In WHFB in tourneys I play in we leave either 2 dice or a paddle pop (ice cream) stick with one end cut square (and a small blob of blu-tac to fix it in place) at the back edge of the mvt tray, so if we do need to remeasure you can just slide it back.

At the Brisbane GT many years ago I busted a guy using a DA sword on a character who wasn't able to take it (can't remember item or character now), I reported it to the judge immediately. It was first game so Item was removed from the character and he was left with a handweapon rest of the tourney and the player got docked 5 battle/game points (you get up to 20 per game) for every game for the tourney.

It happens, I should have called over the judge in retrospect but i was giving him the benefit of the doubt early on. oh well Live and learn and move on to next year's Adepticon.

MVBrandt wrote: Take Adepticon results with a grain of salt, perhaps?

Done and done. It is really hard to figure out any type of "best of" at a tournament with only three rounds. Adepticon has the luxury of having a LOT of people attend and play, which sadly means they have to limit the number of rounds they are able to have played. It might be doable if they whole weekend was the big tournament, but then you take away the doubles tournament and other events that people seem to enjoy.

1. Not knowing the rules. The opponent should have taken some time to look up and point out the actual rule. Both are at fault here. One for not knowing the ules and the other for enforcing them.
2. Just sloppy but whatever, this is a game.
3. Not good, should have been reported to the judges. Even as an honest mistake should probably have been DQ'ed.

Frazzled wrote:Its a tournament. its my game. It would get me nervous. they can feth off and have no claim to be there with a camera.

DarthDiggler wrote:I wouldn't allow a camera either. I also don't like it when people hover over and watch the game. That quickly leads into tabletalk by the people watching the game.

while i agree the lookie-loos don't have a right to comment on the game or disturb it, they have every right to quietly tape it. it's a public venue (hotel) which is hosting a public event (a convention/tournament). you have no right or expectation of privacy. big brother may not be watching, but fat gamer guy certainly is and there isn't anything you can do about it (other than making a fool of yourself trying to stop him, thereby making the video even better).

as for the content, they definitely should have looked up the rules in a tournament, let alone in a championship round at a premiere event. that's not the place for an amateurish or ignornant (whether purposeful or accidental) misinterpretation. the rhino movement was just plain sloppy but not cheating. as for the extra missle launcher, the only thing that matters is what is on the list and paid for with points. if he was using an extra missle launcher, he should be disqualified (since the event is over with) and all the players he played against awarded an extra battle point or two. if it had been caught in the first game, i'd have simply made him lose the figure (without a replacement) and detracted some points from sportmanship for not "knowing" his own army list.

warboss wrote:

while i agree the lookie-loos don't have a right to comment on the game or disturb it, they have every right to quietly tape it. it's a public venue (hotel) which is hosting a public event (a convention/tournament). you have no right or expectation of privacy. big brother may not be watching, but fat gamer guy certainly is and there isn't anything you can do about it (other than making a fool of yourself trying to stop him, thereby making the video even better).

Ahem. No.

Hotel = private property. While on private property you absolutely do have what is known as a "reasonable expectation of privacy", which means anyone filming or taking pictures of you requires your permission to do so. Also, due to it being private property, they also require the permission of the owner of the property, or someone reasonably acting on their behalf (hotel manager in this case) to film.

I'm genuinely flattered when people watch/photograph/video-tape my games, I don't even care if they talk, as long as they're not giving input on the game. If they are spectating it means that either they like how my army looks or that they think the game is interesting.

Bunker wrote:
Hotel = private property. While on private property you absolutely do have what is known as a "reasonable expectation of privacy", which means anyone filming or taking pictures of you requires your permission to do so. Also, due to it being private property, they also require the permission of the owner of the property, or someone reasonably acting on their behalf (hotel manager in this case) to film.

public venue, not public property, is what i said. i agree that the owner/manager of the hotel has a right to stop the filming but not the individual being filmed. that person has the right to interupt their game, go get the management, and stop it.. thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

http://communications-media.lawyers.com/privacy-law/Photography-or-Video-Taping-Consent.html

Usually the last game in any round has a small crowd of people watching who have already finished their games. It's nice.

warboss wrote:
not the individual being filmed.

Again. No.
The second paragraph in the site you quoted mentions invasion of privacy, which is what you would be doing if you videotaped either player without their consent.


Back on topic, what was the original motivation for videotaping individual games? Was it just to have a record of the event, or was it to attempt to catch perceived shenanigans?

warboss wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its a tournament. its my game. It would get me nervous. they can feth off and have no claim to be there with a camera.

DarthDiggler wrote:I wouldn't allow a camera either. I also don't like it when people hover over and watch the game. That quickly leads into tabletalk by the people watching the game.

while i agree the lookie-loos don't have a right to comment on the game or disturb it, they have every right to quietly tape it. it's a public venue (hotel) which is hosting a public event (a convention/tournament). you have no right or expectation of privacy. big brother may not be watching, but fat gamer guy certainly is and there isn't anything you can do about it (other than making a fool of yourself trying to stop him, thereby making the video even better).

as for the content, they definitely should have looked up the rules in a tournament, let alone in a championship round at a premiere event. that's not the place for an amateurish or ignornant (whether purposeful or accidental) misinterpretation. the rhino movement was just plain sloppy but not cheating. as for the extra missle launcher, the only thing that matters is what is on the list and paid for with points. if he was using an extra missle launcher, he should be disqualified (since the event is over with) and all the players he played against awarded an extra battle point or two. if it had been caught in the first game, i'd have simply made him lose the figure (without a replacement) and detracted some points from sportmanship for not "knowing" his own army list.

in the immortal words of Genghis Connie: "Wrong wrong really really wrong!"
Its a private event PAYED FOR, competition.
I payed to play.
I did not pay to entertain.

I would make sure they would be gone.

I know we had a camera setup to record the game to put up on Bols and some other bloggers had Camera on the game to just to record the event to put on their blogs. We junked our video though as it looks like I blocked almost the whole table from our view like a idiot.

warboss wrote:

Bunker wrote:
Hotel = private property. While on private property you absolutely do have what is known as a "reasonable expectation of privacy", which means anyone filming or taking pictures of you requires your permission to do so. Also, due to it being private property, they also require the permission of the owner of the property, or someone reasonably acting on their behalf (hotel manager in this case) to film.

public venue, not public property, is what i said. i agree that the owner/manager of the hotel has a right to stop the filming but not the individual being filmed. that person has the right to interupt their game, go get the management, and stop it.. thereby being docked points for slow play and sportmanship. either way, not really the point of this thread so i'll leave it be.

http://communications-media.lawyers.com/privacy-law/Photography-or-Video-Taping-Consent.html

Its private property
It IS a private event.
I can and would have it stopped. What part of raging lawyer threatening to sue if you don't stop do you not get?