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This was my first con, so I don't know if this is a normal thing or not, but I'd be curious to know:

Example one: I was sitting outside of the FoW/WHFB room, and there was part of one of the tournaments spilled over onto tables outside of the main room. I started watching (from afar) a game between an adult, probably in his early 30s, and a kid that could not possibly be over 13. Halfway into turn one, this guy's cell phone rings, and he proceeds to take a call for over 5 minutes. The kid tries to say something, and he is pretty roughly admonished by this dude.

Example 2: Again, WHFB. Kid, maybe 14-15, and a guy who hasn't seen 40 in at least a few years (I'm 42 myself). Every time the kid is in his movement phase, the older guy is quietly sliding out his tape measure under the table and is clearly making rough estimates with it. By turn three, he's blatant enough that the kid looks under the table.

So let me ask the youngsters here on Dakka...do you guys notice more disrespect from older players, or did I just observe some anomalies? It really bummed me out to see that.

And why wasn't this brought to the attention of a judge while it was happening?

We have admonished people in the past for attempting to take advantage of younger players. Slow play, rules abuse, etc...it's why the 40K Youngbloods event exists. Between that and the Team Tournament most younger players have an outlet where they have a partner or are playing people their own age. Fantasy has always been a few years behind in terms of growth and tournament direction. This is nothing against the game, players or organizers - it is more our fault. Fantasy wasn't even part of the early AdeptiCons and it took us a good 2 years to get them fully involved and invested.

If another 30-something isn't going to stand up to his opponent due to intimidation or lack of knowledge - I don't think we can reasonably expect a 13-year old to do the same. This is on the rest of us, as organizers, judges and attendees.

zeronyne wrote:This was my first con, so I don't know if this is a normal thing or not, but I'd be curious to know:

Example one: I was sitting outside of the FoW/WHFB room, and there was part of one of the tournaments spilled over onto tables outside of the main room. I started watching (from afar) a game between an adult, probably in his early 30s, and a kid that could not possibly be over 13. Halfway into turn one, this guy's cell phone rings, and he proceeds to take a call for over 5 minutes. The kid tries to say something, and he is pretty roughly admonished by this dude.

Example 2: Again, WHFB. Kid, maybe 14-15, and a guy who hasn't seen 40 in at least a few years (I'm 42 myself). Every time the kid is in his movement phase, the older guy is quietly sliding out his tape measure under the table and is clearly making rough estimates with it. By turn three, he's blatant enough that the kid looks under the table.

So let me ask the youngsters here on Dakka...do you guys notice more disrespect from older players, or did I just observe some anomalies? It really bummed me out to see that.

Did you call the guy on the measuring? You were an adult watching another (vaguely) adult (vaguely) person take advantage of a kid. I'd have laughed at him personally. Or just wondered over to a ref and grassed him in.

OLD AGE AND TREACHERY WILL OVERCOME YOUTH AND SKILL EVERY TIME! ...

Frazzled wrote:OLD AGE AND TREACHERY WILL OVERCOME YOUTH AND SKILL EVERY TIME! ...

Go eat your custard and take your pills old fella, or it's back to your room with no Matlock...

This thread warms my heart...

Get off my lawn...er...

If it wasn't for you meddling kids...

While AdeptiCon does not have a large number of “kids”. Our average attendance age is in the 25 to 40 range. One of the most reward parts of running this convention is seeing fathers and sons enjoying the hobby together. In some cases whole families. There is a great team coming to the 40K team tourney that consists of the father, the mother, and sons. Honestly, a great way to enjoy the hobby.

About 3 years ago while running the Gladiator event, round 1 had already started. A father came up to the registration area with his son who looked about 13 in tears. I had actually met these two earilier during regular registration and they both were very excited to be at the tournament. The kid was particular proud of his army his first. Now we actually, had an even number of players in the Gladiator and round 1 was well underway about 10 minutes in but this dad was in hot water. He had misread the start time for the event. If you have kids you immediately understand your getting an earful. So I pulled the ringer out, assigned a table and set this kid up with a game getting him into the event. The kid was smiling all weekend long having a great time.

So the norm is to see kids having a great time looking and playing with toy soldiers!

The issue can be that a significant amount of the time these “kids” end up playing on the bottom tables and normally round 2 draw some “adult” who just had his clock kicked in by some other “adult” and dreams of tourney fame and glory crushed. Unfortunately, a number of them take this opportunity to improve their self worth by beating the snot out of a “kid” unmercifully instead of taking it as an opportunity to do some teaching and set a good example for conduct of play.

I have been at Grand tournements and such and delt with "kids". Personally I remember my uncle taking me to the old emporers HQ on irving park in chicago when I was but the age of 11(gadds almost 2 decades ago) and playing in my first wargame/historical. Since then when I encounter kids I take it for what it is. They are trying to get into a hobby and if it means a loss at a grand tournement so be it for me. At that age a win is far more important then it is for me. Now that said I don't just give them the win, and it has happened were I steam roll over(but usually I find something to give the kid to make them walk away with something cool). I remember in seattle I steamed over this kids IG with my nids, and I gave him some Sabertooth( I think) pendants and stuff. His mother came up to me later and told me how that made his weekend, and I found out from her he had worked on peoples lawns for almost a year to pay for the trip from alaska to seattle just to compete.

I have some great friends really nice guys in general, but they hate playing with kids, so this goes either way really. It saddens me to think that some adults have to cheat, but hey I just think to the youngest slayer sword winner in the states Dylan Gauker. This kid paints better then most adults ever will, and from what I saw he is a very level headed kid(total babbling at this point sorry).

Wow, nice perspective, guys... I have to admit, I've been of the camp that resents younger players. Maybe I'll try to soften up a bit and do the whole "take them under your wing" bit that a few of you seem to have done. That's really excellent...

I guess my justification for my actions has been that the ones I have encountered have been more of the... snotty-nosed-brat type? Is that just a weak excuse? Not knowing their rules and such... but I should be nicer about it, and I'll try to do that...

And I agree with Mattias in this:

Matthias wrote:If another 30-something isn't going to stand up to his opponent due to intimidation or lack of knowledge - I don't think we can reasonably expect a 13-year old to do the same. This is on the rest of us, as organizers, judges and attendees.

I'm 26, and I just got taken advantage of in a game last month by a player taking an illeagal army. For some reason I felt intimidated to ask him about his list ahead of time... so it always helps to have another veteran player looking out for you, regardless of age.

Cheers for the good sportsmen in this thread!!

You know I have not posted alot except on our home town forum about Adepticon. I had an amzing time. The one thing that I see here is common thread that takes place not only at tourneys but in society as well. I have read almost every page to Adepticon cheating thread and I have read this and few others on different forums. What I have not read anywhere and what is most disturbing is where someone says I saw something wrong and I reported it. That is literally nowhere. People seem to want to wait and post it on the internet where is safer. The guy you are calling a cheat can't get his hands on ya this way. Or I saw this, this and this but because I have a user name no one will know who I am. Too me this is just crap. Adepticon is just as much our event as it is the organizers and if we don't take care of it then you all should get used to this crap going on.

If you saw something and did not report it you are contributing to the problem. If you waited to bitch on a forum about someones behavior and did not have the stones bitch to their face you have contributed to the problem. For the record I am police officer and I see this everyday. We would accomplish nothing without the help of the public. They see and hear more than we aever will. All theyhave to do is tell us. Point us in the right direction. I can't tell you all how many times we go things like domestics or worse murders and people will say I heard this kinda stuff all the time but did not want to get involved, or its not my business. Crime is everyones business. Cheating is everyones business.

I played a kid in the combat patrol who was about 11 or 12. Nice kid who I actually barely beat. His mistakes is what helped me. Once it was all over I had him go back over the last part of the game and I showed him options for what he could of done different and how he could have won the game. I was not going just let him go off without trying to help the kid.

Cheating and the stuff will only really change when people man the hell up and take care of it right then there. Not on some damn forum. IF you saw a kid getting cheated and did nothing then you have done nothing by posting it here. Good job way to be a man.

@Bikeninja - I completely agree about pointing things out if you see them happening. However, I think part of the reason that a lot of this gets posted on the internet is that people don't realize what's going on at the time. This has happened to me, where after the fact you realize that X unit can't do what your opponent thought it did. Or a situation comes up in another game that makes you realize a mistake was made in a previous one. So I think some of the internet bellyaching can be explained that way. But if you notice something going on, point it out.

As for playing younger players, just relax and try to teach them a thing or two. At some point we were all overly excitable little boys with poorly painted armies.

afireinside13t wrote:However, I think part of the reason that a lot of this gets posted on the internet is that people don't realize what's going on at the time. This has happened to me, where after the fact you realize that X unit can't do what your opponent thought it did.

I agree, this is obviously what happened to me in the example I gave above (realizing it after the fact). I also don't think the OP was so much complaining about the issue, as trying to find out if this is common or not.

Also, maybe it's different for you, but I'd find it difficult to go up to a game I'm not involved in, and make an accusation in either of these cases. In the first one, the guy's just being inconsiderate (maybe you could strike up a conversation with the kid while he waited?). In the second, he's pulling a fast one, but it's hard to prove... I think the thing to do would be to get a judge, as others have mentioned in this thread.

I saw a young kid on Friday who had hand painted murals on his land raiders. They looked fantastic and the kid couldn't have been more than 14. Pretty cool to see young people doing well and having fun at Adepticon.

Well we have a tendency to also accent the negative. I saw a lot of folks having a good time. I spend a good chunk of my day walking around AdeptiCon shaking the hands, introducing myself to people, most importantly listening and doing my part to ensure that folks have a good time. Did I hear of some not so good times, sure and we try to deal with them. But far and away I hear positive things and as far as AdeptiCon’s go .. this one was smooth and had a great vibe all weekend long.
What is difficult for folks that have never been to AdeptiCon to grasp is the shear volume of play .. over 1250 individual games of 40K played during the weekend. On the WFB side over 500 games.. . Add to the mix LOTR, FOW, PP, WAB, BFG, Pickup games, etc..

That is a TON of gaming taking place under one roof.

Just got to keep it all in perspective.

For the most part I saw everyone having a good time. My brother played a complete jerk in the Championships but it did not in any ruin his first Adepticon expirience. It is jsut that you have one person here who obviously saw some real shady stuff and did nothing. I pray the kid that I played was not a victim of any of that. I took the time to teach and educate. Giving him some things to think about.

I know the judges, everytime they read some this are banging their heads going "why did people not say something." I know I would.

Agreed. People talking about the negative is human nature. It’s like what they teach you in sales, or customer service, that a person is ten times as likely to tell a friend about a negative experience than they are to tell them about a positive one.

But focusing on the good is what we need to try to remember to do. Adepticon is a phenomenal event. It runs amazingly smoothly considering the scale. Out of 15 opponents I had this weekend, only 2 had attitude issues (and those pretty minor), and a couple had tape measure issues (but I’m a measurement nazi, and those guys weren’t the truly horrible sort). Almost everyone I played was totally cool, and every single game I played was fun. 11 games in 3 days is a heck of a time, and always leaves me both exhausted and craving more. I must be insane, but it’s a darn fun kind of insane.

Hey Bikeninja, you’re in Nashville- are you one of the Blade & Bolter Boyz? I played three of them at Adepticon, and they were all high-quality players.

I haven't had much trouble with "kids" per say - I usually have issues with the 17-23 range of kids.

I think we can all agree that old 40k gamers should just be put on an iceberg and floated away.

Fearspect wrote:I think we can all agree that old 40k gamers should just be put on an iceberg and floated away.

I don't think we all agree on that at all.

And to go a bit further with your analogy...

Careful, you're on thin ice now.

zeronyne wrote:This was my first con, so I don't know if this is a normal thing or not, but I'd be curious to know:

Example one: I was sitting outside of the FoW/WHFB room, and there was part of one of the tournaments spilled over onto tables outside of the main room. I started watching (from afar) a game between an adult, probably in his early 30s, and a kid that could not possibly be over 13. Halfway into turn one, this guy's cell phone rings, and he proceeds to take a call for over 5 minutes. The kid tries to say something, and he is pretty roughly admonished by this dude.

Example 2: Again, WHFB. Kid, maybe 14-15, and a guy who hasn't seen 40 in at least a few years (I'm 42 myself). Every time the kid is in his movement phase, the older guy is quietly sliding out his tape measure under the table and is clearly making rough estimates with it. By turn three, he's blatant enough that the kid looks under the table.

So let me ask the youngsters here on Dakka...do you guys notice more disrespect from older players, or did I just observe some anomalies? It really bummed me out to see that.

It is normal, and is amongst us, even at our FLGS's. TFG's, both examples.

I hate cell phones in my game area. absolutly have a hate-train on for the interruptions and the distractions that they inflict on a game. The kid was given his first lession that will go on from there in making that hate for him, as well. I happens more often the people want to admit, and is a bane to a game like 40K.

From your example, this is also an example of a neckbeard that has an inferiority complex, and doesn't want to play a outright battle, he wants to win at all costs, and be a douche while doing it. At the end of the game, you ignore this clown and give the kid an extra attaboy for something, either hey, that was a pretty good game , kid. or a Hey, your army looks pretty cool, what colors did you use on so and so... Generally give the kid some grown up positive comments, especailly when some assjack takes advantage of them.
The kid was given another example of HOW NOT TO BE, and a good lession of How to spot the TFG.

I'm going to have to say that we need a little more inhouse policing if we see this sort of thing, especially in this kinder and happy-happy joy-joy age of peachskin egos, and eggshell machismo. The players need to make it a point to evolve the old school unwritten rules that used to be commonplace, and are almost now lost to the ages.

Sportsmanship, trashtalk, and competition are all the norm in a tourney, and these little tykes these days need to be set right in the ways of the world and warned beforehand BEFORE they go to a major turnament that these sorts of pantywastes exist, and in large numbers, wherever gaming is hard and fast in the great United States. Big boy rules.

Keep the kids in the game and make sure they know that by the very nature of wargaming that they are going to meet a few of these chowderheads in the game before they take a broadside from a TFG...


Reality bites, it bites harder when you are uninitiated into these sorts of putz actions.

Alpharius wrote:

Fearspect wrote:I think we can all agree that old 40k gamers should just be put on an iceberg and floated away.

I don't think we all agree on that at all.

And to go a bit further with your analogy...

Careful, you're on thin ice now.

Quiet, old people should speak when they are spoken too.

Just to be sure

Define "old"

any one over 30.

skkipper wrote:any one over 30.

Hey now!

Empchild wrote:I have been at Grand tournements and such and delt with "kids". Personally I remember my uncle taking me to the old emporers HQ on irving park in chicago when I was but the age of 11(gadds almost 2 decades ago) and playing in my first wargame/historical. Since then when I encounter kids I take it for what it is. They are trying to get into a hobby and if it means a loss at a grand tournement so be it for me. At that age a win is far more important then it is for me. Now that said I don't just give them the win, and it has happened were I steam roll over(but usually I find something to give the kid to make them walk away with something cool). I remember in seattle I steamed over this kids IG with my nids, and I gave him some Sabertooth( I think) pendants and stuff. His mother came up to me later and told me how that made his weekend, and I found out from her he had worked on peoples lawns for almost a year to pay for the trip from alaska to seattle just to compete.

I have some great friends really nice guys in general, but they hate playing with kids, so this goes either way really. It saddens me to think that some adults have to cheat, but hey I just think to the youngest slayer sword winner in the states Dylan Gauker. This kid paints better then most adults ever will, and from what I saw he is a very level headed kid(total babbling at this point sorry).

Hardly a kid anymore, he's in college now... Funny you should mention him though, because don't you know it, he goes to the same game store I do. He keeps his Slayer Sword in one of the display cases. Sumb*tch has the same 1st name as me too...

But yeah, I've seen this issue from both ends. I started playing at like 15 or 16, and almost all my opponents at the time were in their 20's at least. I must admit I was a bit intimidated playing against them because 1, I was new, and 2, I was the youngest (typically) player there by a decent margin. Now I'm 18, and my main play group is half guys my age, and half a bunch of teens ranging from around 13-16. A couple of them get incredibly hyper sometimes, which can be a bit annoying. In general though they aren't bad, and they know the rules of the game (as much as a good majority of the player base anyway; I have yet to play a single game that I can remember where there hasn't been at least 1 rules debate. Roughly 70% of the time it's my opponent who has it twisted. True story.)

I love the younger players. If we play in an event I will probably beat them, but never through cheating. If I need to cheat a 12 year old to win i should probably rethink a lot of my life.

Speaking up when seeing cheating is important. But often people dont know whats going on. Ive been cheated twice at events out of placings, both times i didnt realize until later.

Sometimes the older gamer makes me more angry than any 10 year old can possibly do.

They seem to have the mentality of " well you kids are here in the tournament , be happy and content with that ,
i dont need to treat you nicely as baby sitter for your parents "

Mannahnin wrote:Agreed. People talking about the negative is human nature. It’s like what they teach you in sales, or customer service, that a person is ten times as likely to tell a friend about a negative experience than they are to tell them about a positive one.

But focusing on the good is what we need to try to remember to do. Adepticon is a phenomenal event. It runs amazingly smoothly considering the scale. Out of 15 opponents I had this weekend, only 2 had attitude issues (and those pretty minor), and a couple had tape measure issues (but I’m a measurement nazi, and those guys weren’t the truly horrible sort). Almost everyone I played was totally cool, and every single game I played was fun. 11 games in 3 days is a heck of a time, and always leaves me both exhausted and craving more. I must be insane, but it’s a darn fun kind of insane.

Hey Bikeninja, you’re in Nashville- are you one of the Blade & Bolter Boyz? I played three of them at Adepticon, and they were all high-quality players.

Yes Bikeninja is part of the Blade & Bolter Boyz.

To be honest, the first one doesnt bother me as much- you had no idea what was going on at the other end. COuld have been something important- work on call, wife, kid....whatever. I'm almost always on call at work even on my day off, so when the [hone rings I answer.

As to the second one, why did YOU get a judge? Thats just blanatant cheating- kid as an opponent or no.