Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

But I feel that he has been pretty maligned and I didn't see him respond around here and felt that he deserved to have his voice heard over here (disclaimer, I don't know either of the guys, didn't go to Adepticon, and have no dog in this fight - it just seemed fair).

he posted the following over at the Adepticon forums:

TimSchmidt

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: Sunday Championship Yellow Error Reply with quote
It has come to my attention that people have become upset with me. I must apologize for making a mistake in the championship tournament , after playing 8 games with four missile launchers in each the gladiator and team tournament, I mistakenly played with 4 missile launcher instead of 3 in the championship yellow division. It’s a long week end and by no means did I mean to cheat anybody. For this reason I will be forfeiting my spot to the Vegas GT. Again I apologize to all my opponents and to the staff at Adepticon.

http://www.adeptuswindycity.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5079&sid=4b9f96f376a82a22caf24216f07fef77

Is it overly-cynical of me to read that as "I wasn't planning to go to Vegas anyways?"

To be fair, at least he acknowledged it. Kudos to him for that.

I would say it is overly cynical, yes. He apologized for his mistake and stepped down.

I admire his honesty and intestional fortitude.

Good for him. I'm sure it was an honest mistake, especially after 2 full days of gaming!

Based on the previous videos - it would seem that there was 'possibly' more than the army list model addition.

But by then it can be subjective.. or unintentional... maybe? idk.

saucy!

I can tell you that after too little sleep and 10+ games, you get a little fuzzy about what your models have.

I kept on thinking that my HQs had Winds of Chaos, and I think I dropped it on all of my models.

If it was accidental it's an extremely honorable, admirable thing to do. I think it's best to assume that that was the case, so well done, Tim.

No matter what you believe good on his part.

Bravo to the guy for stepping down over the mistake... shows he's a stand-up guy

On second thought, forget it.

The hypocracy of some people here is just beyond words.

OK, here is what I don't get. Irregardless of who he is or whether or not it was an accident by using a model not in his list he cheated by breaking the rules with the ML. That cannot be disputed - right? It is no different to a golfer taking an extra club left in his bag after practice. So why wasn't he DQ'ed and stripped of the result as soon as it became apparent post tournement?

cheating is all to common at tournies. It is one of the reasons I stopped going. NW area has a few notorious cheaters who when they play at a GW tournie they end up playing staff and/or are watched like a hawk.

I don't even get it really, if you're the type who has the cash to travel to an event like this then do you really need the prize that badly? If you're that desperate to win that you're cheating and screwing people over then you're going to the tournament for the wrong reasons.

Kudos for having the integrity to admit his mistake.

whitedragon wrote:Kudos for having the integrity to admit his mistake.

ummmm, disagree here. If he had that integrity wouldn't he have forfeited when it became apparent he had cheated during the game (even if accidently)? Isn't an illegal list (i.e what is on the table not matching the written list) cause for DQ . The BoK and Adepticon posts couldn't be more opposite but the simple fact is it wasn't until it became wildly know that he cheated that he withdrew from the prize.

fullheadofhair wrote:

whitedragon wrote:Kudos for having the integrity to admit his mistake.

ummmm, disagree here. If he had that integrity wouldn't he have forfeited when it became apparent he had cheated during the game (even if accidently)? Isn't an illegal list (i.e what is on the table not matching the written list) cause for DQ . The BoK and Adepticon posts couldn't be more opposite but the simple fact is it wasn't until it became wildly know that he cheated that he withdrew from the prize.

I disagree with you completely. Regardless of what you believe happened during the event, Tim had the integrity to take the high road and forfeit his Vegas GT ticket. No one was forcing him to do anything, and he could have kept his ticket and gone to the tourney. This shows amazing character on his part, and shame on those that were blatantly trying to slander/defame him across the internet.

whitedragon wrote:Regardless of what you believe happened during the event, Tim had the integrity to take the high road and forfeit his Vegas GT ticket.

Just an OT (sort of) question here. When people talk about the "Vegas Ticket", what are they referring to. Is it an actual ticket to play in the Vegas GT for free, or is it a ticket that allows you to buy a ticket to the GT?

If the former, then its a big deal to forfeit it (assuming you were going). If the latter, meh, and I don't see what all the drama is about a tourny where you "win" the right to buy a ticket to another tourny

whitedragon wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:

whitedragon wrote:Kudos for having the integrity to admit his mistake.

ummmm, disagree here. If he had that integrity wouldn't he have forfeited when it became apparent he had cheated during the game (even if accidently)? Isn't an illegal list (i.e what is on the table not matching the written list) cause for DQ . The BoK and Adepticon posts couldn't be more opposite but the simple fact is it wasn't until it became wildly know that he cheated that he withdrew from the prize.

I disagree with you completely. Regardless of what you believe happened during the event, Tim had the integrity to take the high road and forfeit his Vegas GT ticket. No one was forcing him to do anything, and he could have kept his ticket and gone to the tourney. This shows amazing character on his part, and shame on those that were blatantly trying to slander/defame him across the internet.

Mainly libel (as in written) just to be picky. and no-one is libelling him as he used 4 ML's instead of 3 which is cheating (be it accidental or intentional) unless you are disputing that fact. The ticket shouldn't have been given up it should have been taken away. He was aware he was cheating during the game and if he had the integrity the Adepticon forums are trying to laud him with he would have forfeited the game instead of waiting days for the internet overreaction and ritual tarring and feathering to happen.

Headfull

It would appear that nasty things have been said about the guy. You say he "knew" he has 4 instead of 3 ML's.
What the guy says in his statement is that he did not notice the mistake due to tiredness.

He didn't forfeit during the tourney as he did not realise the error until after the game.

To call someone under those circumstances a cheat is a defamatory statement.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Headfull



To call someone under those circumstances a cheat is a defamatory statement.

No it isn't. He cheated - be it accidental or intentional. He broke the rules and gained an unfair disadvantage - i.e he cheated.

So maybe he's a great guy in real life, maybe he was super duper tired, got his lists mixed up, truly feels super bad about making it through a big hobby competition with an illegal list, and wants to do right by the world.

Does any of this change the fact, yes fact at this point, that he cheated, and the natural response from the tournament organizers and 'community' would be his retroactive elimination from the event and any prizes or gains that he was awarded as a result of his wins?

Does this actually seem unreasonable to anyone?

He only cheated if he deliberately and knowingly broke the rules.

If he made a simply made a mistake - yes he broke the rules, but that is not the same as cheating. There is a difference.

cheat (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v.tr.
1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.
v.intr.
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.
n.
1. An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
2. One who cheats; a swindler.
3. A computer application, password, or disallowed technique used to advance to a higher skill level in a computer video game.
4. Law Fraudulent acquisition of another's property.
5. Botany An annual European species of brome grass (Bromus secalinus) widely naturalized in temperate regions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Middle English cheten, to confiscate, short for acheten, variant of escheten, from eschete, escheat; see escheat.]

Doesn't say anything about making a mistake. Sorry for including all the drfinitions but don't want to be accussed of falsification or cheating

Okay, so if it makes you feel better, replace 'he cheated' with 'he broke the rules'.

Does the logical result of losing all prizes/awards/status as a result of breaking the rules not make sense to anybody?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:He only cheated if he deliberately and knowingly broke the rules.


Doesn't say anything about making a mistake. Sorry for including all the drfinitions but don't want to be accussed of falsification or cheating

Those definitions appear to be ok. I don't agree with it - partly because I ring up people after I have played and apologize for "accidentally cheating". Anyhoo - still should not benefit from it and the organizers should have stripped everything off him.

I applaud this guy for playing the gladiator, team tournament, and then showing up Sunday and ALL he forgot was a single missle launcher difference in his lists.

fullheadofhair wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:He only cheated if he deliberately and knowingly broke the rules.


Doesn't say anything about making a mistake. Sorry for including all the drfinitions but don't want to be accussed of falsification or cheating

Those definitions appear to be ok. I don't agree with it - partly because I ring up people after I have played and apologize for "accidentally cheating". Anyhoo - still should not benefit from it and the organizers should have stripped everything off him.

Well they didn't, and he took it upon himself to forfeit. So how is he a douchebag again?

whitedragon wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:He only cheated if he deliberately and knowingly broke the rules.


Doesn't say anything about making a mistake. Sorry for including all the drfinitions but don't want to be accussed of falsification or cheating

Those definitions appear to be ok. I don't agree with it - partly because I ring up people after I have played and apologize for "accidentally cheating". Anyhoo - still should not benefit from it and the organizers should have stripped everything off him.

Well they didn't, and he took it upon himself to forfeit. So how is he a douchebag again?

oi, doofus - I didn't call him a douchebag. Learn to read. I mainly object that the post in Adepticon forums laud him like the second coming of christ (and just incase you don't get it, that is hyperbole for effect and not literal).

fullheadofhair wrote:oi, doofus - I didn't call him a douchebag. Learn to read. I mainly object that the post in Adepticon forums laud him like the second coming of christ (and just incase you don't get it, that is hyperbole for effect and not literal).

You called him a cheat, and in a manner that seemed synonymous with douchebag. Pardon me for not quoting your directly, since you are comfortable with not being literal (see above). So, if you mainly object to the post in the AWC forums, and not the fact that he's a good sport for forfeiting his ticket voluntarily, then what exactly are you trying to say? Sure, he may have done things in the game that were shady, but he manned up, admitted his mistake and forfeited his spot at the Vegas GT. What else does the guy need to do before you'll be satisfied?

As for the TO's doing something, they have pretty much said they aren't doing anything, so how is that still Tim's fault in your eyes? I don't understand where you are coming from.

I missed the first thread
would someone inform me why it got locked down?

You may not have called him a douchebag. But interestingly Wiki defines the term as:

Douchebag, or simply douche, is considered to be a pejorative term. The slang usage of the term dates back to the 1960s.[6] The term refers to a person with a variety of negative qualities, specifically arrogance and engaging in obnoxious and/or irritating actions [italics]without malicious intent[/italics].

(my emphasis)

The point is the organisers failed to act for whatever reason, so he took it upon himself.

If he did actually knowingly deceive, then he has at least forfeited any benefits gained from it. This may not make him the Messiah but he has tried to make amends. Wasn't there someone who advocated forgiveness btw and also some stuff about casting the first stone?

Honestly, it seems like some people play flawless games every time. I am not one of those players nor have I ever played one. Sometimes someone forgets to move a model or shoot with a unit or whatever. I let them to it, which apparently makes me a cheater and deserving of internet vitriol. It must be awesome to never make a mistake.