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So I have a bunch of orks. I also want to play IG. Would it be out side the bounds of "counts as" to use orks as IG?

For example, shoota boys representing lasguns. Big shoota,kannons, zapp guns etc. representing heavy weapons squads. If you wanted to mech up, using "looted" leman russ or chimeras?

As long as you followed all of the basing guidelines, such as two models on a correct sized heavyweapon base, what's the general consensus about this?



GG

I wouldn't mind playing against it, but I'd like to see some sort of theme other than 'they look like orks but are actually IG'.

Maybe you go with the stormboyz fluff and model them in uniform, using old Kommando models or something. Or make them look weedier, like Guard.

Weapons are also a contentious area. Lascannons, Missile Launchers etc should all be easily recognisable..

Hi

For a tournament - as a tournament organizer myself - I would say no.* I demand WYSIWYG at my events. I have found that players, myself included, hate fighting against stuff where you don't know what it is at a glance.

* Unless heavily, heavily converted... to the point where there is no doubt about which weapons are which and which vehicle is which. Your examples simply wouldn't fly. Each boy would have to havea lasgun, each chimera-trukk would have to have the multi-laser heavy bolter.

That being said, in a pick-up/playtesting atmosphere - no problem.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Are we really talking about "counts-as" here, or proxying an entire army as another one?

If it's something like using the IG codex to represent an Armored Krumpany of Orks then that would be kinda cool, but I'd personally frown at someone using what's clearly an non-themed Ork army as IG stand-ins.

Yeah, I think if you wanna go this route, you'll have to convert. Blood Axes are known to trade with humans for equipment and weapons and even for fighting alongside humans, so Orks using Imperial/human equipment isn't unheard of.

Convert them to have IG(or equivalent) weapons, give them a bit more armor, and convert the vehicles and I don't see most people having a problem with it.

I have heard of the Mysterious "Squat" count as "IG" army at Adepticon. I'd like to see pictures of that one, since there was apparently big debate about LOS issues and such due to what I've heard was modeling for an advantage.

I'm good with using whatever as long as LOS issues and cover stay the same.

I was hoping to be able to use my orks as two armies, instead of having to paint up an entirely new one.

So unless I use actual lasguns,lascannons,autocannons, heavybolters, etc.etc. It wouldn't fly I guess.

Obviously nontourney, my friends wouldn't care, but was thinking I could kill two birds with one army, so to speak.

GG

I run an ork-nurgle daemon army with lots of "plagueboyz" and fantasy night goblins as cultists (nurglings). It's taking forever to paint because I'm detailing the hell out of it though (oozing pustules, exposed bones, each with one horn/one eye, whatev). Basically what everyone else has said, be sure to take your time and make it "look right." If you put effort into something then even the most hard-nosed people become open-minded fairly quickly.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I run an ork-nurgle daemon army with lots of "plagueboyz" and fantasy night goblins as cultists (nurglings). It's taking forever to paint because I'm detailing the hell out of it though (oozing pustules, exposed bones, each with one horn/one eye, whatev). Basically what everyone else has said, be sure to take your time and make it "look right." If you put effort into something then even the most hard-nosed people become open-minded fairly quickly.

That sounds cool!

I guess I'll go with my original idea then. (non ork themed)

GG

Uriels_Flame wrote:I have heard of the Mysterious "Squat" count as "IG" army at Adepticon. I'd like to see pictures of that one, since there was apparently big debate about LOS issues and such due to what I've heard was modeling for an advantage.

I'm good with using whatever as long as LOS issues and cover stay the same.

I was part of that team and the models had the same footprint and height of what it was counting as.

I think some malnourished orks that counted as T3 guard models would be alright lol.

generalgrog wrote:So I have a bunch of orks. I also want to play IG. Would it be out side the bounds of "counts as" to use orks as IG?

For example, shoota boys representing lasguns. Big shoota,kannons, zapp guns etc. representing heavy weapons squads. If you wanted to mech up, using "looted" leman russ or chimeras?

As long as you followed all of the basing guidelines, such as two models on a correct sized heavyweapon base, what's the general consensus about this?



GG

Why not just get IG and call it a day? You have orks, there, if no one told you, they only need to be "Counted as" orks.

Uriels_Flame wrote:I have heard of the Mysterious "Squat" count as "IG" army at Adepticon. I'd like to see pictures of that one, since there was apparently big debate about LOS issues and such due to what I've heard was modeling for an advantage.

I'm good with using whatever as long as LOS issues and cover stay the same.

Off topic, but I play a Squat IG army too. Yes, there's a cover bonus, but I find that the height of my models is much more often as DISadvantage due to their terrible LOS. The vast majority of model size arguments are swings and roundabouts - there's no clear advantage either way...

generalgrog wrote:So I have a bunch of orks. I also want to play IG. Would it be out side the bounds of "counts as" to use orks as IG?

Generally, no, not with the current Orks being so big and buff. And having their own specific rules.

OTOH, if you were to use weedy IG-sized greenskins (i.e. Goblins, Gnoblars, & Grots) and use them as an organized force, that would be much better.

I think a Rebellin' Grotz army with Looted IG vehicles would work very well.

If you modelled them as blood axes, it would probably look pretty cool and no one would be confused. No one had a problem with my beastmen IG.

whitedragon wrote:No one had a problem with my beastmen IG.

Of course:
1. There are currently no official Beastmen army Codices in 40k
2. Beastmen in IG go back to Rogue Trader

i think the main gist of what people are saying is that "counts as" armies are acceptable in formal settings like tournies if you put the work into the modelling and the backstory of the army. just bringing orks and saying they're IG won't fly with a lot of players; while they may not refuse to play against you, they'll dock you hefty points on theme/painting and possibly sportmanship depending on how bad your consistency is about the "counts as". (i.e. in this unit, the big shoota is a heavy bolter but in this one it's an autocannon and in this one... etc)

JohnHwangDD wrote:

whitedragon wrote:No one had a problem with my beastmen IG.

Of course:
1. There are currently no official Beastmen army Codices in 40k
2. Beastmen in IG go back to Rogue Trader

Replace beastmen with Blood Axes.

Proxies army - no. Heavily converted to properly count as IG - yes. Take a look at Rob Baer's IG army as a good example of orks count as IG.

G

I want to see the Wierdboy Battle Squadron!

If your friends don't care, then there is no problem, and why bother asking us?

If I were to play against you, and you told me that your orks were doubling as an IG army, I would think that is a bit off. Proxy armies are less fun to play against than normal armies, unless your army is clearly designed to be an IG army, not just going ork by day and IG by night.

Talk to individual tourney organizers, IMO. Some will allow it, some won't, and all will want to know more than just "I have sum orkses." It is neither automatically "OK" nor automatically "out of the question."

Hardly anything gets undies in wads faster than what you suggested (using one army with another's rules without the arts-iness piece). Ironically, it's often the guy who sprayed his entire army black and then dabbed 2-3 other color splotches on 'em to meet the standard for painting who will object the loudest. Sure you can't see his las/Tau shooty thing/bolter-ma-callit in that blob of oncoming barely non-monochrome guys but that's your fault

ph34r wrote:If your friends don't care, then there is no problem, and why bother asking us?

Because this is a tournament forum, and I was curious what the consensus of tourney players were about using this in a tourney environment?

GG


Automatically Appended Next Post:

privateer4hire wrote:Hardly anything gets undies in wads faster than what you suggested (using one army with another's rules without the arts-iness piece).

I'm not sure if this was addressed at me, but what you suggested(using one army with another's rules without the arts-iness piece). is not what I suggested. :-)

if you look at what I typed I clearly suggested that the ork IG should have the models modedeled with a theme. For example: shootas = lasguns, big shooats = heavy bolters, lobbas = mortars, kannons = lascannons, zapp guns = autocannons, rokkit launchas = missile launchers, wierd boys = psykers.

The whole point was to keep from having to build a whole nother horde. I.E. if I allready have 100 ork shoota boys it would be nice if I could use them for more than just orks in a tournament. But I completely understand why people would object.

GG

Story time. Way back in the day, right after Dark Eldar were released, a player emailed the GW GT staff and asked if he could use his WHFB Empire army as DE in the upcoming Baltimore GT. They, thinking he meant appropriately modified and converted models, said yes. So he shows up and puts out his stock Empire army, this warcart counts as this, etc etc, army. Fits were pitched, emails discussed, etc. Upshot, he was allowed to play it, with cards on every unit to say what they were but barred from winning anything. So if you're going to do it, it needs to be converted so your opponent doesn't think he's playing Orks.

Follow-on, while getting drunk that night I was teasing him about it and he challenged me to do a WHFB army as a 40K army. I accepted his drunken wager. Hence my lizardmen IG army that I fielded at the next year's US GTs:
http://s418.photobucket.com/albums/pp266/don_mondo_bucket/1st%20Lustrian%20IG/

don_mondo wrote:Follow-on, while getting drunk that night I was teasing him about it and he challenged me to do a WHFB army as a 40K army. I accepted his drunken wager. Hence my lizardmen IG army that I fielded at the next year's US GTs:
http://s418.photobucket.com/albums/pp266/don_mondo_bucket/1st%20Lustrian%20IG/

The LM infantry are good, but the wanna-be Tanks just don't work so well to my eyes.

I think you'd have had an easier time converting Lizards as Nids, or Skaven / Undead as Guard...

generalgrog wrote:if you look at what I typed I clearly suggested that the ork IG should have the models modedeled with a theme. For example: shootas = lasguns, big shooats = heavy bolters, lobbas = mortars, kannons = lascannons, zapp guns = autocannons, rokkit launchas = missile launchers, wierd boys = psykers.

The whole point was to keep from having to build a whole nother horde. I.E. if I allready have 100 ork shoota boys it would be nice if I could use them for more than just orks in a tournament. But I completely understand why people would object.

GG

sorry, but that's not a "theme"; that's just consistent use of "counts as". a theme would be an ork army that took over a relatively empty weapons planet like vraks and was using the imperial equipment. the orks would be modelled with bits of IMPERIAL weaponry like lasguns, misslelaunchers, cadian armor plates, etc. just being consistent and using common sense with your "counts as" is not enough to prevent most of the complaints; it's the BARE MINIMUM you should do to have any hope of running the army in a tournament.

I don't know...
I think that, if you said it was an Ork Warboss who was impressed with the might of the Imperial Guard when he last fought them (BTW, they didn't BEAT him. He tactically withdrew in favor of a better approach!), and decided he wanted his Boyz to fight the way they did... That would be a good theme in my eyes.
Even if you only used Ork weaponry, provided you followed IG structure, I'd be okay with it.
There are a few things i'd expect, though:
Big Shootas could represent (for example) heavy Stubbas but, in that case, shoule ALWAYS represent Heavy Stubbers. "These" Big Shootas being one thing and "those" Big Shootas being something else... that wouldn't work.
Also, the more you went for aesthetics and character, as opposed to a "Dead Hard" list, the better accepted I'd think it would be, too. Take a huge mob of grots as Penal legion. Maybe a unit of grots all in a certain (shooting) pose could represent Ratlings.
Don't forget that Wierdboy Battle Choir! LOL

Eric

warboss wrote:......sorry, but that's not a "theme"; .....

In your opinion anyway.

GG