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Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander







Now that great coat guard are out from another company, and given that all tournies but the Vegas GT are independently sponsored, what should be the policy towards non-GW figures???

The only negative I can see would be not getting to play in Vegas. But it would be great to see armies made with all the other great figures out there. I'd love to face a Praetorian army or Great Coat guard etc.

Everyone is viewing Vegas as the Super Bowl....I say pfooey....make Adepticon the Super Bowl of Warhammer. And give people the freedom to use what figures they want.

.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. 
   
Made in us
Hunter with Harpoon Laucher




Castle Clarkenstein

You've pretty much got that right now. If you want to play in Vegas, you know the restrictions, and if you want to play anywhere else, you know they are probably relaxed. Checking the rules for any idividual tournament is probably advised though. Some won't care, some will. The events on the GT circuit are getting support from GW, and that can influence the individual TO's as to what restrictions they have on models.

Me personally, I feel if GW is providing a huge amount of support, it's inappropriate to throw open the tournament to non-gw armies. At the same time, most people make most or all of their armies from GW models. So in my case, I have a rule at the GT's I run that the majority of an army should be GW figures. Players can contact me and send pictures if they have questions.

For many people, Adepticon is the biggest event. The first Vegas event isn't for another year even.

As to what policy should be? There doesn't need to be any overriding policy. Each tournament is currently free to set their own rules. Trying to fix a policy for all tournaments would be the opposite of giving people freedom.

....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
Made in us
Ruthless Rafkin






Glen Burnie, MD

I, too, am looking foward to those particular miniatures. I plan on adding them into my guard army.

I'll still support GW, though other purchases of vehicles and such, and other lines. GW just hasn't made these types of figures available in plastic. IF they had, I'd likely be spending my money there.



-Loki- wrote:
40k is about slamming two slegdehammers together and hoping the other breaks first. Malifaux is about fighting with scalpels trying to hit select areas and hoping you connect more. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






London UK

yeah,
I'm starting to come around to see that sometimes non-GW is ok. especially if the army is done nice inkeeping with 40k.
Like you say 'greatcoat guard' with lasguns and chimeras etc then I'd have no problem and still enjoy myself...
For example when my friend ArbitorIan told me he was planning a penal legion guard army made out of 'i-Kore's Void Junkers' with lasguns I balked at the concept... I even protested 'if your going to spend all that time painting them why not buy the proper figures to start with!'... but now it's done I like it, It looks 40k in everyway, it's great.Ian's Penal Legion Blog & a BattleReport

ArbitorIan took his new army to the DakkaDakka tournament in CanterBury, and it got a great reception. But ArbitorIan can't take them to the next DakkaDakka Tournament in August because it's being held at WarHammer World... but knowing ArbitorIan this won't bother him, he'll probabily finish another 3 armies before then anyway!

So yeah you have to decide will it bother you that you can't play your nice new grimdark greatcoat army at GW stores or at a some Tournaments...

But heres the rub IMO, Like most 40K fans/players I'd like to see 40k retain the GW grimdark flavour, I'd hate to go to a tourney and play a guard army made out of AT43 figures or tanks. Most 40k players don't attend a tournament to play a proxy army... And the easiest way to prevent this is to block non-gw figures.
When you allow non-GW figures in a 40k tourney where do you draw the line?
When a dude pops open a box of green army men?

Panic...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/04/16 18:23:40


   
Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





Colorado

I allow non GW models at my tournies withing reason. As in Infantry and the like is almost always ok, but Vehicles Im a bit more restrictive on.

NoTurtlesAllowed.blogspot.com 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I have no issue with non-GW models. To me, the modelling and conversion possibilities are one of the key attractions of 40K.

Obviously it will be different at GW events.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

GW-run and -sponsored events are always going to have a GW-only approach.

For independant events, it's really down to the TO as to how they want the event to be.

Personally, I have no issue whatsoever with non-GW models, so long as they fit in stylewise, and are clear as what they're intended to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/18 00:12:54


 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Norfolk, Va

But heres the rub IMO, Like most 40K fans/players I'd like to see 40k retain the GW grimdark flavour, I'd hate to go to a tourney and play a guard army made out of AT43 figures or tanks. Most 40k players don't attend a tournament to play a proxy army... And the easiest way to prevent this is to block non-gw figures.
When you allow non-GW figures in a 40k tourney where do you draw the line?
When a dude pops open a box of green army men?


I agree completely with this. I wouldn't want to see someone trying to pass off an army made entirely of warmachine minis because they don't want to buy 40k minis.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

This aggression will not stand, man.

   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

As long as theres an effort to make it match the army its representing, the source of the figs shouldnt matter if they fit the theme.

And at the tourney level we're talking about- they should also have a decent paint job.

All too often theres this sense of GW elitism, like if you dont have all GW or FW figs your minis arent good enough to play the same game. If you're honestly saying you dont spend the money for a GW army to play a 'proxy' army, you're amking this game about who has the biggest wallet.

For me- I hate putting in hundreds of hours of conversion and paint into an army- only to go to a tourney and play against a guy who spray paints a soda cup silver in the parking lot- poked some guns in it and called it a Monolith O.o (yes- this really did happen)

And hell, if some guy popped out a box or army men, that he actually painted to a decent standard- I'd probly play just for giggles.

GW kinda opened the door for this when they adopted the 'counts as rule' in favor of WYSIWYG

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/18 04:46:59


 
   
Made in us
Beast Lord





I couldn't care less about it personally. Truth be told, for WHFB there are some models that just don't look as good and getting them from somewhere else for cheaper as long as they aren't ridiculous. And, If I was playing a casual game to est an army. I would use army men. because I can get a tub of those guys for about $5.00. If they aren't GW minis for a Tournament you can near about guaran-damn-tee that your opponent is going to try and get you disqualified for it. Same thing happens with magic. There are Gold Bordered Lands that are from old tournament decks from world (IIRC) that some people will get bent out of shape if you use them. If they are unsleeved, it is a valid reason, otherwise though, they are just as random as regular lands.

Death be not proud,
Though some may call thee mighty and dreadful,
For thou art not so...
DT:80+S++GMB++IPwhfb09#-D+A+/hWD-R+T(M)DM+ 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

In 40K, the model is merely an aesthetically attractive counter which gives a physical presence on the tabletop referring to an abstract set of stats in a book.

There is an easy solution to this issue.

If someone has a nice looking army, converted from non-GW figures, and you don't want to play him, don't play him.

If someone has a crappy looking 100% official GW army, assembled by a monkey and unpainted, and you want to play him, play him.

If it is a tournament, the TO will publish the acceptable limits of models in the rules package.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

Panic wrote:
But heres the rub IMO, Like most 40K fans/players I'd like to see 40k retain the GW grimdark flavour, I'd hate to go to a tourney and play a guard army made out of AT43 figures or tanks. Most 40k players don't attend a tournament to play a proxy army... And the easiest way to prevent this is to block non-gw figures.
When you allow non-GW figures in a 40k tourney where do you draw the line?
When a dude pops open a box of green army men?


Well thankyou Mr Panic

I think the line can easily be drawn by insisting on WYSIWIG. If you want to field your AT-43 army in a tournament, then it has to be instantly recognisable what each model is. This is going to take a lot of weapon swaps - you can't just say 'all the regular guys have lasguns', you have to actually model them that way. EVERY model needs to be suitably converted to keep with WYSIWIG, otherwise it's just a proxy army, which isn't allowed...

   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

I find it a bit ironic that this thread appeared just the day after I was musing about how many times I see people on Dakka specifically comment about non-GeeDub models being nice but a no-go for 'Official GW' events. For one, what GeeDub events are everyone so concerned about being able to attend?? As noted, it looks like you've got Vegas and ... I guess in-store GW events, if those still exist (the stores, as well as the events). In either case, I can give out a resounding MEH - though props to those who $$$-down and take Vegas on, I'm sure it's a hell of a trip.

For two, I would probably score you higher for using non-GW models. The Dub makes a lot of nice things, but the rest of the gaming world combined with your own powers of creativity can come up with a whole lot of innovative and interesting things (for less $ in some cases, but not necessarily). As far as WYSIWYG, I've got at least one full 'counts as' army and am often working on other such unit swaps, and I stick to a rule of being as less confusing as possible. This does not mean replacing X weapon on a model with a GW-produced version - I think I am correct in assuming a level of intelligence from my opponent that can understand that grunt AT-43 trooper = grunt IG trooper, when they are given a quick 1 minute breeze through what everything is. I will not use them differently from the generic 40k unit you know, and they will die the same when you shoot them. Game on.

@ The Poster Who Mentioned Disallowing Vehicle Subs -- With the way vehicle modeling works in 40k, as far as hull vs weapon tip and all that, this isn't a terrible ruling. Modeling to advantage happens with the actual kits as is, not to mention swaps that utterly change the footprint, weapon placement, etc. If clear effort goes in to approximate the size, shape, footprint, weapons of the 'official' model, I would be happy to accept it though. And since Ian posted, I actually do take issue with his soulgrinders from his demon army, not because there are a few non-Dub bits in there, but because they are SO much smaller than the actual 'grinder is. As a guy who's had his defiler killed because its leg spike was sticking out of cover, that's a moment of 'counts as' swapping I would not be as willing to embrace / forgive.

^A lot of this is also me coming from fantasy, where the nature of the abstraction involved (i.e. there are 2 levels of height and only the base matters) means that counting in different models is very very easy to do. We squarebasers could pretty easily run blank bases (and not Citadel ones at that ) and not have problems.

- Salvage

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/04/18 16:02:14


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

Boss_Salvage wrote:This does not mean replacing X weapon on a model with a GW-produced version - I think I am correct in assuming a level of intelligence from my opponent that can understand that grunt AT-43 trooper = grunt IG trooper, when they are given a quick 1 minute breeze through what everything is. I will not use them differently from the generic 40k unit you know, and they will die the same when you shoot them. Game on.


I think PaniC's point was more about the 'feel' of 40k and not wanting to lose that. I'm sure it's easy to consistently sub weapons in an AT-43 army that makes it easy to play against. My feeling is rather that, to use it in a game of 40k, i'd want the army to be converted in some way that makes it part of the 40k universe and not the AT-43 one. Insisting on the correct weapons in a tournament environment is not an over-the-top rule, and it hopefully would encourage players to do more conversions to 40k-ise their army and add more grimdarks...

I wouldn't refuse to play against an AT-43 'counts as' army, it's not a big enough deal to throw away a game, but I'd be concerned that it would feel like playing a 'proxy' army. I'd be much happier if the walkers had the correct weapons for the Armoured Sentinels they count as, and the guard look like they're in an Imperial army, and there are Commissars around, and meltaguns look like meltaguns etc. This is what I aimed for with the Drade (Junker) army - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/257179.page

Boss_Salvage wrote:And since Ian posted, I actually do take issue with his soulgrinders from his demon army, not because there are a few non-Dub bits in there, but because they are SO much smaller than the actual 'grinder is. As a guy who's had his defiler killed because its leg spike was sticking out of cover, that's a moment of 'counts as' swapping I would not be as willing to embrace / forgive.


The soulgrinders in question are indeed rather small - http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/84386-.html?m=2 and http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/81536-SG1%201.html?m=2 - I was building a daemon army, hated the current SG model, and had some bits lying around, and thought i might as well stick something together. In my defense, they have just as many in-game disadvantages as advantages, but they're not the sort of model I'd take to a tournament or event anyway. Too many potential arguments.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







If the company provides stuff, let it be a company minis event.

If the store provides stuff, let it be up to the store.

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
 
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