Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

O.k....before I start on this, I think its pretty safe to say I'm pretty good at 40k. This of course isnt to toot my own horn, instead, it gives me a little "room to talk" as I dont go around the internet talking tons of trash (anymore) and essentially bashing GW/players/judges for things they do. I'd also like to point out that this post is in no way me bashing on ARD BOYZ. It's not the tournament's fault that people dont know how to behave like adults.

So, what I've observed is on sites like dakka, warseer, BOLS, B&C, YTTH and other blogs/forums is that the subject of Ard Boys really tends to bring out the worst in some people, or rather, those people that typically badmouth people/lists/scenarios....well, the cream really rises to the top so-to-speak.

I was reading one attendee's list breakdown of opponents this morning on a site, and the peanut gallery that responded to the post had nothing to say about the opponents but things like...."Was he drunk when he made that list?" "Those armies are full of fail" "f&*kinc stupid" ect, you get the idea. How nice.

...and dont even get me started on all the greif leveled at GW for these missions that "Werent thought out in the least.", "totally unfair", or "the most slowed missions I've ever seen, do they even play this game?" (key word there is GAME).

At the risk of sounding like some Casual Gaming Mafioso, these guys have REALLY lost sight of what this game is all about. I'm actually one of the more competetive gamers out there mentally, and even I find myself wincing at these comments I see everywhere. My first reaction is to feel like I want to pit my toughest list on the board and tell these guys to "nut up or shut up", then after a little thought I just shake my head at these "experts".

People SERIOUSLY need to calm down. If someone feilds 10 firedragons in a waveserpent at Ard Boys, that doesnt make him a slow, it simply means that he wanted to use 10 firedragons. Nothing more, nothing less. I suspect that whoever wrote the 3rd mission for Ard Boys knows "just a little" about 40k. He probably actually plays it too. However, some of the people out there that really hate the missions this year would probably tell you otherwise in their infinate wisdom.

Hey guys...GAME...you see, thats the word. Noones life is dependant on the rules for mission three. No families are going to go hungry because so-and-so thinks vanguard vets are the coolest thing ever so "why not bring 3 full squads?" Can we calm down and let people have FUN with the GAME? PLEASE?

off....I just felt something like this needed to be said. Some of the teenyboppers on the intarwebz need a wake-up.

Some gamers can be dramaqueens. Combine with internet anonymity and that's what I think you're reading.

I think you also see a lot of 'arm-chair quarterbacking' from people who rarely, if ever, actually play the game. Its easier to sit at your computer, listhammer and theoryhammer everything, and deposit pearls of wisdom upon the great unwashed masses of interwebdom.

Shane well said man well said!

I like to think that I'm an elitist jerk who spews caustic yet funny comments, not vitriol.

I just dont get it.

I love playing 40k, I happen to be pretty good at it, but if I saw someone using a unit of 10 firedragons in a Serpent...I wouldnt call him "slowed" I may talk to him about building a tighter list and make suggestions however.

Bad Scenario at a Tournament, meh. Talk to your opponent and make the best of it. It's a game, have fun with it. I think in my 10-13 years of playing in tournaments, I've complained about ONE mission...ONE. (prolly because it caused me to miss out on the 'best general' trophy in Canada that year. Thanx Shaun K....I hate your orks!)

Perhaps I'm an exception to whats normal. Heck, I'm still playing COD: Modern Warfare 2 despite the huge amount of Noob-Toobers, Commando's and Exploiters playing the game, and strangely enough...I STILL HAVE FUN PLAYING!

Deadshane, I'm still playing MW2 as well - Dashofpepper on Steam, look me up so we can go grief some people. =p

And it is a very unfortunate trend - the litany of garbage being spewed out in the form of advice or "pearls of wisdom" seem to now outweigh useful thoughts, leaving an incredible amount of garbage to be sifted through. >< I generally only post in ork threads, and I'm getting really tired of seeing ork players post for advice, and receive a bunch of drivel about getting more looted wagons and filling battlewagons with shoota boys, and crap, and I have to argue to inject common sense (the whole reason for my signature - so I can say, "Look at my signature and decide if you want to believe my advice or the guy who's title is 'spawn of chaos'."

I think every website starts as a small and wholesome community; anyone else remember Slashdot of yesteryear? As it grows in popularity and becomes mainstream, it attracts mainstream players. The best we can do is scream "GET OFF MY DAMN LAWN!" (or in forum words, "Please don't post if you have nothing useful to contribute" to feel like you're trying to combat this.

Deadshane1 wrote:O.k....before I start on this, I think its pretty safe to say I'm pretty good at 40k. This of course isnt to toot my own horn, instead, it gives me a little "room to talk" as I dont go around the internet talking tons of trash (anymore) and essentially bashing GW/players/judges for things they do. I'd also like to point out that this post is in no way me bashing on ARD BOYZ. It's not the tournament's fault that people dont know how to behave like adults.

I was reading one attendee's list breakdown of opponents this morning on a site, and the peanut gallery that responded to the post had nothing to say about the opponents but things like...."Was he drunk when he made that list?" "Those armies are full of fail" "f&*kinc stupid" ect, you get the idea. How nice.

Oddly enough, I spent about half the afternoon yesterday writing a battle report from last weeks game at my local gaming club and that was pretty much the only responses that I got. Talk about the report, goshdarnit!

I agree with Deadshane.

There's no reason to bag on a free tournament. Could GW have done better? Yes. Could the gamers around the world have tighter lists? Yes. But there's a choice you can make: be a critic or be a mentor. You can complain or you can teach. The internet 40k Mafia all want to bleat the same song to their patron saint of d-baggery. It's an echo chamber, really.

Scenario:

Deadshane posts army list
Internet 'expert' states, "You're an idiot, that list is full of fail!"
Deadshane gets annoyed with 13yo who only plays his brother.

NOW CHECK OUT THE DIFFERENCE

Deadshane organises army on Tournament Table
Passer-by walks up and states, "You're an idiot, that list is full of fail!"
Deadshane takes a deep breath and proceeds to make passer-by "Food for the Immortals". (picture Brad Pitt lifting Christian Slater off his feet by the throat in 'Interveiw with the Vampire')

....quite the difference, eh?

When some people make a list, all they see is what can be the best unit in that particular FOC, and disregard any other factors.

When some other people make a list, they realize that better selection may be available in that particular FOC, yet they have modeling/fluff motivation to play the sub-par unit anyway.

There's a continuum between those two extremes that most people fall in. Unfortunately, the first gamer listed is usually the most vocal.

IT all depends on where you go. I used to play at a spot in Dallas that was full of young jerk offs that ran uber cheesy lists.

I went to ard boys yesterday at a spot with much older players, and we all had a great time. People were honestly more concerned with how I was able to do my conversion work then whether or not the doom of Malantai affected their troops in transports.

If you don't like where you are, then find a new spot. Its not all like that.

But I will tell you that if you are in the tournament scene like me, most tournaments have sportmanship scores, and composition scores, so it does make a difference.

Also people in Texas are just plain nicer.

gannam wrote:IT all depends on where you go. I used to play at a spot in Dallas that was full of young jerk offs that ran uber cheesy lists.
.

Where would that be so I can avoid it? (or go there to show them how to play ;P) I'm moving back home (irving) in about 3 months.

Thanks for giving me yet another reason for never playing at a tournament. The last one I attended was in 1997, and I thought it was ruined by all the people who were either drunk or high and didn't know the rules. I guess that the internet is not always the savior of civilization that some people claim it is. I know I've played against some people who have put together really stupid lists, but even under cover of a screen name I wouldn't use it as an excuse to insult them. Now, posting a picture of what looks like a model that was eaten by your dog, pooped out and THEN painted, that calls for bringing the hammer down. (And, yes it was worth getting suspended for, thank you very much!!!) People need to get into the mindset of playing the game for fun again, so many have lost sight of that.

AgeOfEgos wrote:When some people make a list, all they see is what can be the best unit in that particular FOC, and disregard any other factors.

When some other people make a list, they realize that better selection may be available in that particular FOC, yet they have modeling/fluff motivation to play the sub-par unit anyway.

There's a continuum between those two extremes that most people fall in. Unfortunately, the first gamer listed is usually the most vocal.

More vocal is one thing.

Self righteous douche is another!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warpcrafter wrote:Thanks for giving me yet another reason for never playing at a tournament.

Actually, this post is more of a reason not to be on the internet.

As my "Scenario" above illustrates, when in person at a Tournament...people dont dare act that self righteous and abusive toward others. Theres this little thing called "physicality" that internet Rambo's try HARD to avoid.

warpcrafter wrote: The last one I attended was in 1997, and I thought it was ruined by all the people who were either drunk or high

Hey now! :(

I take great joy in getting plastered at tournaments! I'm a giddy drunk, so it makes the whole thing a big hoot.



*EDIT* Deadshane, I just read your signature and a little piece of me died. :(

Wow, I just had to post this Gem of a post that I just saw.

Concerning the Scenarios, heres one from a person that got first place at his locale of all things...

"GWUS, suck a bag of d!cks--seriously, you have NO f$%king clue what the players want. So on behalf of all the players whose weekend you ruined with your stupidity--f$%k you."

Wow, take the game too seriously much? I guess thats the gratitude one should give after winning some free swag (That GW enables the stores in question to supply). Not "Thanks for the free box set but you guys should really look at the missions and think about what you want to accomplish" but instead dropping the F-bomb....TWICE!

Classy.

I won 6 straight 'ard boyz games last year which got me 1st in prelims and semis using the supposed "garbage fire dragons in wave serpents " although i only used 8 man squads..

The internet is amusing cause the fully optimized lists are often not the ones that win because you're optimizing against stuff you see.. ON THE INTERNET not in your local meta a lot of the time.. Matchups also play a huge role in who wins

I agree with Shane, people need to calm down and just play what they enjoy..

A good player with a list he knows inside and out >> random net player with a list he found on some blog

Eh, it all feeds off of each other. Anybody with half a brain could see how poorly the S3 rules were written, evidenced by the clarification that GW felt was (rightly) necessary to release.

For every reasonable post saying 'hey, this is terribly worded', there was at least one more unreasonable post from, I guess, a 'non-elitist jerk' screaming about how the intent was 'obvious' and anybody who played the game could 'clearly see the intent'.

Then more responses in kind. Elitest hardcore jerks and elitist casual jerks are just as bad. GW does have a rule set that's so loose you could drive trucks through the gaping holes. I recently picked up the Warmachine mk2 book just to check out the new game set with my friends and the first thing we all noticed, and amazed at, were how clear and comprehensive the rules were.

Kirasu wrote:I won 6 straight 'ard boyz games last year which got me 1st in prelims and semis using the supposed "garbage fire dragons in wave serpents " although i only used 8 man squads..

Fire dragons in wave serpents 'garbage'? WTF?!?

I would have only taken 5 man squads, is that what the complaint was? I know this is a bit off topic, but really. Fire Dragons in wave serpents are 'garbage'?

80pts FOR FIVE (5) MELTA GUNS is crap? I admit the transport is a little pricey, but it's a damn solid transport.

Garbage? Really?

Kirasu wrote:
The internet is amusing cause the fully optimized lists are often not the ones that win because you're optimizing against stuff you see.. ON THE INTERNET not in your local meta a lot of the time.. Matchups also play a huge role in who wins

I agree with Shane, people need to calm down and just play what they enjoy..

A good player with a list he knows inside and out >> random net player with a list he found on some blog

It's a lot easier to build a hard list than list than it is to effectively play it.

Skill> Optimized lists: A hard list is useless in the hands of a noob
Match ups > Optimized lists: The more a list spams the same thing over and over again and the more a list specializes in doing something the more it becomes vulnerable to another specific type of list.

A person should just stick with the types of list a they enjoys playing. If they change anything for ard boys it should only be a few minor tweaks to their list to try to make it a bit more competitive.

Thanks Shane.

In response to the list bashing people do, my non-competative vanilla marine bikes scored 2 massacares at 'ard boyz (i took seventh out of 23). I am not saying that that is a good finish, but against all the "competative" armies, I think it shows some important things.

1) Its sometimes not the list, its the general. Dash's Orks are fairly non traditional, I want to see someone that is not Dash post his ork army for review and see how people react (I'm guessing more lootas would be in short order). Furthermore, in a conversation I was having with some Dakkaites (or Dakkatians?) they said, "put hulksmash against any army with any list and I will bet on hulk every time." Sounds to me that lists are about the general, not the optimization of the interwebs.

2) Regarding the scenarios, I was so happy to actually play missions for a week (in practice) that weren't standard missions. Honestly I get a little bored sometimes with the standard missions that are in the book. Even if people whine because it hurts them, its fun to play off the wall missions sometimes. Especially in bigger point games.

But ya good idea bringing this to light.

imweasel wrote:

Kirasu wrote:I won 6 straight 'ard boyz games last year which got me 1st in prelims and semis using the supposed "garbage fire dragons in wave serpents " although i only used 8 man squads..

Fire dragons in wave serpents 'garbage'? WTF?!?

I would have only taken 5 man squads, is that what the complaint was? I know this is a bit off topic, but really. Fire Dragons in wave serpents are 'garbage'?

80pts FOR FIVE (5) MELTA GUNS is crap? I admit the transport is a little pricey, but it's a damn solid transport.

Garbage? Really?

No idea really.. I used 8 with tank hunter cause for 'ard boyz I dont like leaving things up to chance.. 5 vs a land raider is a good chance but not an amazing chance since my warlocks needed to assault whatever is inside

I've rolled more than my fair share of BS4 melta shots that fail to penetrate. Or glance. Or hit at all. If they were Gets Hot! then I'd probably be better off not shooting, period. At 2500, the difference between 180 points and 225 points to make sure that a unit performs a critical role is worth the extra cost.

But I think posts like Kirasu's are where the title of this thread becomes misleading: 'elitist' has at least some connotations of competence. Many times the internet gnashing of teeth isn't from elitist jerks, it's clueless jerks.

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.I do hate the loudmouths, I have to admit. The thing is, theoryhammer and Mathhammer are all well and good, but they are worth sod all when you get down to actually playing the game. It's no good simply saying "that unit is crap because my calculator said so" because unfortunately, the dice don't care about your damn averages. I don't care if, according to the stats, my Lootas are utter garbage at hitting. They're MY ladz and I'll be damned if I don't take them just because some punk says they're no good.

Dashofpepper wrote:

warpcrafter wrote: The last one I attended was in 1997, and I thought it was ruined by all the people who were either drunk or high

Hey now! :(

I take great joy in getting plastered at tournaments! I'm a giddy drunk, so it makes the whole thing a big hoot.



*EDIT* Deadshane, I just read your signature and a little piece of me died. :(

I won the only tournament Ive ever won while very buzzed and borderline drunk. I still remembered what I needed from my simple but effective list (drop pod salamanders). Yay for boozeahol. As for the people who go waaaay the feth overboard with taking to seriously I want to play against them with my pink Orks to see if they keep a straight face. My Orks have no lootas btw. :3

AgeOfEgos wrote:When some people make a list, all they see is what can be the best unit in that particular FOC, and disregard any other factors.

When some other people make a list, they realize that better selection may be available in that particular FOC, yet they have modeling/fluff motivation to play the sub-par unit anyway.

There's a continuum between those two extremes that most people fall in. Unfortunately, the first gamer listed is usually the most vocal.

Not locally. Around here, the other players are the more vocal/holier-than-thou...

It basically comes down to people thinking that they have the only 'right' way to play and feeling the need to be derogatory towards the people that don't play thier way. This happens on both sides of the court so to speak. (I've seen more complaints abotu powergamers, ruleslawyers, and abuse online than complaints about lists not being hard enough to tell you the truth. Both are complaints that the other person doesn't play 'right'.)

these guys have REALLY lost sight of what this game is all about.

Guess what, bro? There are a lot of valid interpretations of what the game is "all about." I've met a lot of elitist hobbyists trashing new players' paint jobs, or the fact that they didn't understand the command structure of a standard Codex Astartes-adhering Marine chapter.

The fact is, a lot of people are gaks.

Good man Shane. You hit the nail on the head. I love missions that make you think beyond the norm. And if some kid brought a list that was less than 'internet optimum,' it could just be that he likes those units. More power to him. This is a HOBBY, not life saving medicine, or rocket science. Take it down a notch WAAC folks!

Again, Shane, you hit it perfect. good call.