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Right, a guy I know has been getting all "uppety" about how mighty and unbeatable the Snakebites are. He was going on about he utterly crushed the guy he was playing (who was helping him as well - telling him not to move inot the open as squads a, b, c...etc. Then this guy won, and bragged. He also beat an UTTER 40K New guy - and bragegd about how badly the guy sucked, and needed re-schooling, and should just give up for being so =][purged=][=ed.

Our gaming group has had enough, and is out for revenge. I have been given the task of smashing him IN PUBLIC. I tihnk this is a good anti-Ork list, but it needs to be aa tight army.

He runs Snakebite orks, with lots of Huntas and the Batlewagon of Doom - 5 Bolt On Big Shootas, 3 big shootas, mob with Big Shootas inside... He also loves his warboss (which my grunts have killed in combat), now in Mega Armour, and Tankbusting units. He also is addicted with Big Shootas, and a looted basilisk (note: he is going off this, and may not inclue one - last game it killed NOTHING, but I still want to be sure).

This is what I have come up with, but I feel it needs refinement from the pros. It needs to smash this guy once and for all.


Doctrines    
Techpreist Enginseers
Iron Discipline
Close Order Drill    
                            
HQ

Command Platoon:
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Honorifica Imperialis, Bolter & Iron Discipline. 3 Guardsmen w/ 3 Lasguns. Veteran w/ Company Standard & Lasgun.        
                    82        
                            
Anti-Tank Squad: 6 Guardsmen w/ 3 Missile Launchers.        
                    95        
                            
Elites    

Techpreist Enginseers:
Techpriest 1: Techpreist w/ Laspistol & Power Weapon. 4 Gun Servitors w/ 4 Heavy Bolters.    
                    145        
                            
Techpriest 2: Techpriest w/ Laspistol & Power Weapon. 4 Gun Servitors w/ 4 Heavy Bolters.    
                    145        
                            
Troops    

Infantry Platoon 1:    
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Bolter. 4 Guardsmen w/ 4 Flamers.        
                    65        
                            
Infantry Squad 1: 10 Men w/ Heavy Bolter & Grenade Launcher.        
                    78        
                            
Infantry Squad 2: 10 Men w/ Heavy Bolter & Grenade Launcher.        
                    78        
                            
Infantry Platoon 2:
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Bolter. 4 Guardsmen w/ 4 Flamers.        
                    65        
                            
Infantry Squad 1: 10 Men w/ Heavy Bolter & Grenade Launcher.        
                    78        
                            
Infantry Squad 2: 10 Men w/ Heavy Bolter & Grenade Launcher.        
                    78        
                            
Fast Attack    

Sentinel Squadron: 1 Sentinel w/ Multi Laser.        
                    45        
                            
Sentinel Squadron: 1 Sentinel w/ Multi Laser.
                    45        
                            
                    999    1    
                            
                            
Techpreists: These are devastator Squads. I think they are a no-brainer.

Sentinels: He HATES nobz, so I can lock him in combat (IF I get close enough).

Anti-Tank is to take out the BW, and I couldn't afford Lascannons.

Platoon commands: counter-charge. Orks don't like Flamers, so why not have 8 of them?

Now, I know I severely lack anti-AP2, but i think that the "torrent of fire" approach should down that Warboss. I am also unsure of how to deal with the Bassie. I am thinking replacing Sentinels with Meltagun Remnants with Drop Troops.

So, any advice on how to smash THE most annoying gamer our group has ever met (if I fail, we will set the Iron warriors on him, but he tries to brag against me enough already - cos I lost to him once, and it is irrelevant I ahve beaten him 3 times, naturally.)?

This guy ONLY learns the hard way. We ahve tried talking tohim about it, but he is ALWAYS right.

Please help, I will be very grateful! You will help do the hobby proud - he doesn't deserve to play with his current attitude, and it is lowering the tone of the hobby (in our area) as a whole!

I don't run IG so take these comments with a grain of salt. I am mainly basing them off of what I think of as common sense 40K.

1.) Why have power weapons on the enginseers. They should be shooting, not fighting in hth. If it gets to that point its too late, you're just giving away more pts than you have to.

2.) Flamers. Way too many of them. I could see if you were just using a few on a suicide squad, but if they are close enough for you to use flamers then once again, its too late.

3.) Sentinels. Your mileage may vary. I've never had good luck with them as they are too lightly armored. Especially only taking 2 of them. However, a lot will depend on if you can get them in hth to tie up a mob with.

Anyway, just a few basic thoughts after taking a quick look at your list.

Rygoth: Enginseers get them as standard.

I sort of agree on the Flamers. If they are that close, something is up. But, to stop 20+ Madboyz, I can see them as worth it - "Hey, like promethium, Xeno scum? FWOOOSH"

I am thinking of holding them behind my lines, and shooting the you-know-what out of the Orks as they approach. Then, in my turn, I move up and flame the remnants. However, you are right. The short range may mean I never get to fire (in which case i sacrifice an Infantry squad, and flame the Orks as they break through, I guess...but its a massive cost to my firepower).

Not too sure on the Sentinels. last game, it ALMOST took out a lotoed bassie (darn Armour Plates), and caused an ardboyz mob to shoot it for 2 turns. But, infantry squads my have both more survivablity, and firepower.

Uhhh...if he likes big shootas (S5 36" range) then why are you taking AV10 open-topped vehicles with 36" range weapons?

If he's skimping on his rokkits, then mech up (ie take mechanized doctrine)! Take lots of Chimeras with Multilaser, HHB, and Stubbers. Present him with a wall of AV12 that his shootas will bounce off of. Hell, take a Hellhound or two (with heavy stubbers) for fun as well. After you burn a unit down to <8, go tank shock them and run them off of the board.

You could even stick your line squads (with LCs) inside your Chimeras and shoot the LCs out the top hatches, to take out the battlewagon at very low risk to yourself. Again, if he brings rokkits then you can just deploy outside of the Chimeras in cover as usual for mech guard. If he brings the Bassie, just deploy your Chimeras farther than 7" apart. It's pretty hard to hit a single vehicle with indirect ordnance these days.

Well, Iwas thinking of that, but a Mega Armoured Warboss, and Tankbustas are annoying.

I might try out Remnants with Meltas, come to think of it...get the BW from behind..hehe

Edit: Missed Foil's post.Drop Troops and Sentinels....mmm...I can smell the burning wrecks from here!

Keep the sentinals, take drop troops and drop them. Str 6 is just fine against av10 open topped. Then you have a nice distraction in his backfield. Also I would keep the flamers, and hold one in reserve and drop him just for the fun of it, sure you will die the next turn, but if you hit with it, burnation. All in all not bad, even though I genrally hate GL's against orks you should do all right.

Agreed, though try to fit some hell hounds in there, they will kill more orks than even your modified devistator squads.

Now, where to crack the points for those Hellhounds then?

I tihnk AT MOST I can fit 1 in. 1 Armoured Target on the board is asking for trouble. I REALLY love Hellhounds, so some would be cool...but I am thinking infantry is the way to go. Tanks, its 1 hit and you're out.

Hellhounds, hellhounds, hellhounds. 2 Hellhounds with heavy bolters and stubbers will absolutely murder Orks - especially when those Orks aren't packing Rokkits. Take some lascannons to deal with that battlewagon, too.

So, 2 hellhounds > 8 BS4 heavy Bolters?

I almost feel bad giving advice on how to beat an Ork, but it sounds like this weedy git deserves a krumpin.

He has one hell of an effective combo there though with the Battlewagon, using the maximum bolt-on-bigshootas and BS3 huntas to fire them, talk about cost effective and nasty. This is doubly true against guard since the Big Shootas are deadly against IG and statistically if he runs it right it will kill 10 guardsman a turn easily.

Your Missile Launchers should do the trick for the battlewagon, but Lascannons would do better if you can sprinkle them around. You want to crush that BW early.

You have enough Heavy Bolters to out range him and take down the Boyz from 36" and with that load out you should be able to out shoot him, making him come to you. Keep the flamers handy for when he's almost ready to charge your lines.

Personally I'd say throw in a Russ and make him eat the pieplate for turns on end if he doesn't have a zaap gun on that Battlewagon. Tankbusta Boy mobs are fragile as anything with only 10 boyz in the mob. Pour your Heavy Bolter fire into that and pound his lines with a Russ and it's new AV14 impunity. I don't have experience with Sentinals so I'd say drop them for the Russ.

Oh yeah, he IS putting the Zzapper on the BW, hence my lack of vehicles.

He is converting an old land Raider into a BW, anfter seeing my conversion...of a Chaos Land Raider into a battlewagon.

THe 2 Sentinels still only come to 70 points, so I need another 75 for a Russ. How do I free that up without SERIOUSLY numbing my firepower, or, do I get more infantry?

Just realised: that Zzap will eat my Hellhounds. I feel really bad about engineering a list to beat him - but to be honest, he deserves it. He deliberately picks fights he can win, and always deploys terrain to his advantage "is it OK if Itake this hill? good. *Bassie out of LOS*"

He also refuses to play IG at anything over 750. He KNOWS they get good at higher points, so refuses to fight.

It occurs to me that Big Shootas are AP5, unless I'm mistaken. Carapace Armour might be worth a shot - halves the damage you take, 'cept from that basi. Trouble is, it would make that AT squad a lot less useful
Do you have the Imperial Armour Book, and are Griffons still roughly the same as they were in the previous IG book? S6 AP4 ordnance for circa 75 points isn't too bad against T4 6+ save 'skins. They can also stay out of range/los - even possibly play the incredibly dirty trick of getting inside 36" of that basilisk and blasting it to (warp). They can also hide out of LOS from that zzap gun.
As far as that AT squad goes...eh...they'll certainly draw that basi's fire. I'm guessing what you mean by "can't afford" is "don't have" - we're talking 15 points here! I'd keep them in hard cover so they'd absorb twice as many basilisk shells.
Another idea, given his penchant for huntas, how about taking an allied squad (or two) of GK Termies? Teleport in and just rampage your way through his line. Give one guy a thunderhammer so the battlewagon will go down like a house of cards once they contact it. If he complains, say something like "your snakebites have feral ork allies, so my IG have DH allies." It would be a hilarious irony for IG to beat Orks in hand-to-hand. edit - Grandmaster with holocaust! Watch'em burn!

A final idea - this is five points over, and that's assuming they left Griffons at 75 points:

Command Squad 40

2x10 Grenadiers ? 2 grenade launcher 116 116

2x4 GK Termies ? 2 Psycannon, 1 thunderhammer 254 254

3xGriffon Heavy Mortar 75 75 75

I'd stick with all infantry as at 1000 points vehicles are going to be eating too many points.
Also ignore the Basilisk for the first few turns until you have taken care of the important things. Pie plates earn their points back in kills from killing Meqs, not guard or orks.
Take out the BW turn 1 and pin the mob which will be near half strength after it dies. Then you can turn your attention to the boyz. If you ignore the BW then you will not have enough fire power in later turns to take care of the boyz.
Try to make him make as many leadership tests as possible by peppering lots of squads. Those who do break might mob up but you may have bought yourself enough time to then shoot the nearest squads.

Right, that DOES it.

After seeing my Land Raider I am converting into a Battlewagon...he is converting his old Land Raider into a batlewagon too, with the same armament.

He has also been heard talking about taking a Batlewagon with zzap gun, 2 BS, 5 bolt-on BS, fired by Huntas, backed up by a Land Raider Crusader (I might be mean and not let him have it - I think I can refuse - but apparently this have been FAQed). He then takes a Mek with KFF (in the BW) and LOADS of Madboyz and Huntas.

I have no Griffons, or IA books, althought they sound killy for their points.

I quite like that GK idea, but again it looks pricey for just one unit.

Given that I know basically what he is fielding, what should I do to take him down?

Well, that battle wagon should be dead by turn one, so no worry on the zapp guns as they will not be in range. Your two devistator squads should kill about 5 orks a turn not counting any cover saves. A hell hound can do much better. I would throw in a few more lascannons so that battle wagon dies turn one. Dropping your devisators will give the points for both the hell hounds and the lascannons. After his "god unit" is blown to smitherines, it is just a matter of mopping up.

Ok - so I take :

2 Hellhounds, my current Platoons and Lascannon anti-tank. That any good?

First off: he can't take a LRC as a looted vehicle, no FAQ's say he can. 

Secondly, are you still talking about 1k points here?  A LRC (if he were allowed) and then a BW will eat up so many points at 1k it should be rediculously easy to beat.

A successful Snakebite list should be more assault based than anything else really because of the Mad and Boar Boyz, toys like what you're talking about should be easily dealt with at this points level. 

Orks die to shooting, even lasguns should put the hurt on them at range.  Take out his two tanks and he's toast.

It's up to you, 3 lascannons vs av 13??? = 1.5 hits = .75 rolls on the damage table. If you are comforable with that ok... I would take a couple more just in case.

Doctrienes

Iron Discipline
Close Order Drill

HQ   

Command Platoon
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Honorifica Imperialis, Bolter & Iron Discipline. 3 Guardsmen w/ 3 Lasguns. Veteran w/ Company Standard & Lasgun.
                    82
                   
Anti-Tank Squad: 6 Guardsmen w/ 3 Lascannons.    75
                    110
                   
Sentinel Squadron: 1 Sentinel w/ Lascannon.   
                    55   
                       
Troops   

Infantry Platoon 1
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Bolter. 4 Guardsmen w/ 4 Flamers.   
                    65   
                       
Infantry Squad 1: 10 Men w/ Heavy Bolter & Grenade Launcher.   
                    78   
                       
Infantry Squad 2: 10 Men w/ Heavy Bolter & Grenade Launcher.   
                    78   
                       
Infantry Platoon 2
Command Squad: Junior Officer w/ Bolter. 4 Guardsmen w/ 4 Flamers.   
                    65   
                       
Infantry Squad 1: 10 Men w/ Heavy Bolter & Grenade Launcher.   
                    78   
                       
Infantry Squad 2: 10 Men w/ Heavy Bolter & Grenade Launcher.   
                    78   
                       
Fast Attack   

Hellhound 1: Pintle Heavy Stubber.   
                    127   
                       
Hellhound 2: Pintle Heavy Stubber.   
                    127   
                       
Sentinel Squadron: 1 Sentinel w/ Lascannon.   
                    55   
                       
                    998    2

Now, what I am concerned about is him "doing the dirty" and actually using Troops with Rokkits. I suppose they only have limited range, so can (at worst) sacrifice the Sentinels to stop him killing the Hellhounds.

With the extra points, I might put a bolter on the Vet, as a "just in case" - its only 1 point after all.

So, what do you recon now then?

I lied. That wasn't my final thought:

Storm Troopers, Grenadiers, Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline, Carapace Armour

Command Squad ? Junior Officer with Iron Discipline and bolt gun; Veteran with Company standard and bolt gun; lascannon team 103

3x5 Storm Troopers ? two melta guns, deep strike 3x75

5 Grenadiers ? 50

Command Squad ? Junior Officer with Honorifica Imperialis, Iron Discipline, Medallion Crimson and bolt gun; lascannon team 131
5xInfantry Squad ? heavy bolter and grenade launcher 5x98

Zero armoured targets and twice as resilient against big shootas. Medallion Crimson in case of lucky basi shot, COD only for use by platoon command so you have the option of getting LD 10, Grenadiers are push-back, Storm Troopers hunt basilisk and battle wagon. If he plays dirty you laugh.

edit - a slightly different version if you don't like to rely on deep strikers for anti-tank. It loses the grenade launchers and one body as compared to the above list, but works roughly the same way - just switch out storm troopers for veterans. Vox-caster units deploy outside the 12" LD 10 bubble.

Command Squad ? Junior Officer with Iron Discipline and bolt gun; Veteran with Company standard and bolt gun; lascannon team 103

3x8 Veterans ?vox-caster, lascannon team 3x120

5 Grenadiers ? 50

Command Squad ? Junior Officer with Honorifica Imperialis, Iron Discipline, Medallion Crimson; heavy bolter team, vox-caster 121
3xInfantry Squad ? heavy bolter 90<?

1x Infantry Squad ? heavy bolter, vox caster 96

Light Infantry and Iron Discipline
0 Command Platoon (HQ) @ 86 Pts

3 Command Squad @ [86] Pts
Lasguns (x3); Light Infantry

1 Junior Officer @ [65] Pts
Honorifica Imperialis [25]

1 Veteran @ [11] Pts
Lasgun; Standard Bearer

0 Infantry Platoon (Troops) @ 265 Pts

4 Command Squad @ [55] Pts
Lasguns (x4); Iron Discipline; Light Infantry

1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts

9 Infantry Squad @ [105] Pts
Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Light Infantry

1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Lasgun

9 Infantry Squad @ [105] Pts
Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Light Infantry

1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Lasgun

0 Infantry Platoon (Troops) @ 265 Pts

4 Command Squad @ [55] Pts
Lasguns (x4); Iron Discipline; Light Infantry

1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts

9 Infantry Squad @ [105] Pts
Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Light Infantry

1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Lasgun

9 Infantry Squad @ [105] Pts
Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Light Infantry

1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Lasgun

1 Hellhound (Fast Attack) @ 127 Pts
Inferno Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter
Pintle Heavy Stubber [12]

1 Hellhound (Fast Attack) @ 127 Pts
Inferno Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter
Pintle Heavy Stubber [12]

1 Hellhound (Fast Attack) @ 127 Pts
Inferno Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter
Pintle Heavy Stubber [12]


Total Army Cost: 997

Thats pretty nasty, if killing orks is the issue. however, if you care about comp, or dont have the models, what you are running looks pretty good, though I might drop the sentinals, they really aren't points effective.

I really, Really like the professors list.

Thinking about it, that is really good.

The platoons can deal with any of the bigger/Marine threats (Battelwagon, other armies), whilst the Hellhounds roast the horde types - Orks, Nids (Tau?).

I might give that list a spin, if its all right with you, "The Professor"?

Oh, and I am also considering a Chaos army - but that may be another thread. I always love the Gaurd, and this really would law the smack down and teach this weasel a lesson once and for all.

Had a thought today - how about swapping out the Lascannons for Autocannons?

Infiltrate should mean that I can hit the side armour, wich is AV12 at most. Autocannons and Plasma should kill that. I also then gain a little bit more anti-horde firepower to boot.

i can use the 40 left over points to get 2 Meltaguns in the Paltoon Commands, either as anti-deepstrike/counter charge, or to go after hidden enemies (IE Basilisk).

So, do you rekon that Autocannons in the place of Lascannons in "the Proffessor"'s list is a goo idea? Or should i stik with the Lascannons for more sure-penetration (IF they hit)?

Why would you want to get closer to orks? This whole game hinges on the battlewagon. If you blow it first turn your hell hounds can chomp his army with impunity. Besides why infiltrate? Who wants to get closer to orks with guard?

What i meant was infiltrate to get onto the weaker side armour - whilst staying at long range, and to set up fire lanes. I know that the Battlewagon is the key unit, and needs to DIE first turn.

What I am trying to say, is would Autocannons on the side armour be better than Lascannons on the frontal armour? I get more shots, but less AP. I could then hurt his Boyz more easily on the way over, before the 'Hounds roast him. But, if he turns the BW, I stand less chance of hitting the frontal armour.

And i suppose infiltrating Lascannons is ok - I can get them side armour values too. however, 2 of the lascannons are expected to miss per turn, so its a little more risky, no? And then I can't kill as many Orks.

So, the question is, Lascannons or Autocannons at long range (having used Infiltrate to get onto side armour, and good fire lanes)?

The only think that would (possibly) be getting close to the orks would be Melta commands - and then only to take out a Basilisk (this worked in my last game against his old army, using Deepstrike. And if he turns his attentiono on the 5 models, then the 'Hounds and line squads are OK).

Oh, and my current tactic would be to use infiltrate to deploy after his army (but in my Zone still). Squads sit in a line, and take down the Battlewagon. The 'Hounds are kept back, to support whatever part of the line is hurt. Once the BW is dead, I assault the Orks with the tanks. Would this work well?


I found out what he is going to run (although this may change with playtesting):

Warboss, Mega Armour, Trukk. (goes tank hunting).

Mek with KFF (Joins Madboys)

2 units of 16 Huntas, Big Shootas.

1 unit of 10 Huntas, Big Shootas.

18 Madboyz, Pigdok (so likelys5)

Looted Bassie

BW - Zzap, 2 Big Shootas, Plates, Red Paint, Riggers.

So - will my army be able to deal with that, with just Autocannons and Meltas? ( I would ahve to deepsrike a Command with Meltas to take out the Bassie, and hoping Autocannons on side armout 12 will be sufficient).

Hellhounds will roast the Boyz easy enough, but its the Warboss and BW that are the threats, not to mention the Bassie raining fire (or will cover basically negate that)

Well, he has "Army List" syndrome, but for now has changed to this:

basically; S5 madboyz in wagon with KFF and speeed capability (turbo boosta, red Pain), 2 large mobs of huntas with big shootas, a leman russ with plates, and the warboss in a trukk to take out tanks.

I tihnk the inclusion of a Russ merrits AT LEAST 2 lascannons in the army now. Autocannons need 5s to glance on it's, and the BW's side armour. Lascannons need 3s.

I am thinking of 2 squads with Lascannon and Plasma, and 2 Squads of Autocannons and...either Plasma or Grenade Launchers. I then have 1 Command Section with 2 Meltaguns, and the other for Ld. What do you rekon?

Madboyz in a bwagon? Urgh, you're looking at some fun potential rules debates from the Madboy Crazy Test. Good luck with that. Honestly, he has prolly close to half of his army in open-topped transports and you're IG, why don't you load up on Ordnance and go for some Annihilated results?