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Using Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients, are you allowed to take 6 dreads in a SM army?  I see this one as a pretty clear 'no' since the codex is very specific about "elite *or* heavy" when every other entry concerning dev squads and assault marines reads "elite *and / or* heavy" (Emphasis mine of course).  This is how I read it, and how my area chose to play it.  Yet there are still a few threads discussing the 6 dread list and its viability, so the issue cannot be as clear cut as it seems in my local area.

I'd particularly like to hear from someone who believes it is allowed, and why?

Just as a thought, the entry only says 'dreadnoughts may be taken as elite or heavy choices'. Each individual dreadnought is still only one of these; it's either Elite, or Heavy. The trait doesn't say, for instance, 'you may take dreadnoughts as Heavy Support choices instead of Elite choices', which would more clearly say that it is one or the other.

There's nothing that precludes a certain entry in the army list from also having the ability to be taken in another FOC slot. Warriors and Carnifexes, for instance, are only in one slot, but can be taken as HQ or elites depending on your desires. The wording of Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients implies that it functions in a similar manner.

At the current moment it is all about where you play. As the rule it self is open to debate usualy the gaming store or tornament organizer. I for one believe that you can take 6 because the 'or' that is used is not an 'exclusive or' meaning that you can have one or the other or both at the same time. Just ask for the current house rules untill the FAQs come out for the new C:SM.

Ouch, I am damn depressed now, I happened to love my Dreadnaught army but I have to agree flat out its illegal. . .

I guess I will have to post the bad news on a rather large thread who have been helping someone with a 6 dread list. . .

This does make a bit more sense though, 6 dreads, and 9 speeders, is a bit to many ass cannons list. . .

Until the FAQ, I'm still using it. One word is no evidence of exclusivity.

Ouch, I am damn depressed now, I happened to love my Dreadnaught army but I have to agree flat out its illegal. . .

Having read it more closely, to me it looks as if a 6 dread army is 100% legal. From what I see, people who think it is not are reading too much into the fact that the wording is different from the other entries.

It says. "Dreadnoughts may be taken as Heavy Support or as Elites." Each dreadnought is still only one of these - either Heavy, or Elite. It does not say, 'dreads may be taken as Heavy Support instead of Elite', nor does it say 'you may take dreads as either Heavy Support or Elite'. The lack of the word 'either' implies that there is no exclusivity.

For further evidence, the next line is, "Any Dreadnoughts selected as Elites must be Venerable...". This strongly implies that not all Dreadnoughts in the army would have to be Elite.

You have a good point, however I have spoken with my local tournment head, and he has sat down and double checked it for himself and his descision is no you can not, the only codex that seems to allow you to is the Blood Angel Codex, 3 Dreads as heavy support, and 3 furioso as elite. . .

His tournament, his rules, I guess.

HOWDY! DaIronGob is back. I know you missed me.

In regards to this, the Trait "Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients" (as Relic said) states that the dread taken can be used as an Elite or a Heavy.

So each dread you choose, you choose which slot!

Now since there is no limit to the number of dreads you can take in the description of said entry in the SM dex (i.e no 0-1 or 0-2 limit) then you could fill each spot in the 2 force org sections with a dread! 3 Elite dreads being upgraded to Venerable and 3 other dreads as heavy support!

The argument against would then say you now have Elite *and* Heavy dreads which is not what the Heed the wisdom of the ancients allows. The crutch of the counterargument is the wording for the similar entries for Blessed be the Warriors, Honor your Wargear, and Swift as the Wind which specifically state 'and/or'.

I cannot say which is the correct interpretion. I would allow my opponent to take 6 dreads, but I would not however bring 6 dreads to a competetive non-local event without a backup list. As this is an issue that would be hard to argue with an event organizer.

The rule doesn't state "the Dread entry changes force org slots and cannot be changed" it says basically that if you use a dread you choose which slot to use it in. If you choose a second dread you would then choose which slot again etc etc.

Posted by Moz on 03/03/2006 10:38 AM
The argument against would then say you now have Elite *and* Heavy dreads which is not what the Heed the wisdom of the ancients allows. The

Yes, Heed The Wisdom Of The Ancients does allow it by allowing you to take dreadnoughts as Elites or Heavy Support There is no need to spell out what should be obvious.

You can buy apples or oranges.

You can buy apples and/or oranges.

Same result?  Obvious?

 

 

Its all about your state of mind when you read the rule.

Two camps, to ways of thinking:

1. Apply "Heed" to all Dreadnoughts at the same time, "or" applies to them all at once, limiting you to 3.

2. Apply "Heed" to each Dreadnought seperately, "or" applies to them each individually, allowing up to six 6.


There are no steps that tell us how to actually choose which units to take and at what point rules like "heed" are applied.


As a departure from the RAW with no bearing on the rules:
Why would it be called "Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients" and then give you the option to place Dreadnoughts, the Ancients, in a worse FOC position, forcing you to deploy then earlier, with no additional benefit? Shouldn't it then be called "Damn, the Ancients are Slow"?

Well it does let you take 3 venerable dreads anyway you slice it. Or 3 dreads and 3 termies? Or maybe even 6 dreads if interpreted in a certain way.

Again, I am not claiming that you cannot use 6 Dreads. I am making the case that if you bring your 6 dread army to my local gaming store, they are going to laugh at you, and you are not going to be able to convince them that *or* means *and/or*.

Your apples to oranges comment is cute but has no bearing.

It would make sense if you listed your apples and oranges example as this.

You can buy a grape and use it as an Apple or Orange.

In this case no matter what you choose you still have a grape. The same is true for "Heed". No matter which slot you use it in you still have a Dread.

Now that the silliness is done it states you use the dread as a Heavy or Elite choice. So each dread selected is then placed in one slot OR the other.  Next dread you select you do the same thing. If "and/or" were to be inserted where "or" is then it would imply that you can select the same dread as BOTH. But you cannot do so since any dread selected as an Elite does not have the same requirements as a Dread selected as a heavy.

or vs and/or is a moot arguement as it does NOT limit the number of dreads you can select. You make the selection for each dread.

I think if your interpretation allows a single dev squad or assault squad to take up 2 FOC slots under Blessed be the warriors and Honor your wargear, you just might be doing something wrong.

Loki is definitely onto something that the argument comes down to how you conceptualize roster rules during creation. If you see it as Army builder-ish: where each selection is checked for validity as you enter it into your roster, then yes it is obvious that Heed allows 6 dreads. If you see it as looking at a completed roster and determining if it is valid, then no Heed will not allow 6 dreads.

I am making the case that if you bring your 6 dread army to my local gaming store, they are going to laugh at you, and you are not going to be able to convince them that *or* means *and/or*.

Doesn't have to. As I said earlier, the actual wording of 'Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients' is quite clear. It says that dreadnoughts may be Elite or Heavy, and that any you take as Elite are Venerable. It's not a complicated rule. The only reason your local gamers are confused is that they are reading too much into a comparison with similar rules. If you look at the wording of 'Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients' in and of itself, it is not really ambiguous. There is at the very least a strong implication that Dreadnoughts can be both, and only someone who expected perfect consistency in a GW-written rulebook could argue otherwise.

I was merely presenting the arguement that to interpret the other rules and compare them to the "Heed" rule is the same as trying to interpret the wording "or" vs "and or".

Rather than spending all this effort into "comparing rules" maybe just read the one ya got!?

Ok let me try to follow along building a list with Heed the Wisdom. We'll say I've already picked my HQ and 2 Troops so now I select 3 Dreads, Heed tells me that I have to make any elite Dread Venerable. Well right now I don't want to make all three of these venerable so I make 2 Venerable which pushes the other over to HS. At this point I've used 1 HQ slot, 2 Troops slots 2 Elite slots and 1 HS slot from the FO chart, we're all agreed so far right ... good. At this point what stops me from suddenly deciding to add another Dread? There's no limit on the number of Dreadnoughts in the unit entry, my trait says I can put a Dreadnought in an Elite slot, if it's venerable, or a HS slot and I have open slots in both the Elite and HS sections of the FO chart. So what stops me from having more than 3 dreads? If it's not having the word "and" in the trait then that implies one fo 2 things either a) HS Dreads take up 2 FO slots (1 elite & 1HS) since that's the only way to limit the number of dreads I can take. Or b) my list is already invalid because I can't have HS AND Elite Dreads in the same list because the word "and" is missing from the trait.

You're following the: Pick a unit, check the validity, then write it down method. Which allows 6 dreads and is fine since the 'army construction phase' isn't really detailed in the rules. Note you could also do fun (read silly) stuff with this method and make a single Dev squad an elite *and* a heavy choice.

However, you will encounter someone, somewhere (probably near where I play) who follows the: Pick a unit, write it down, finish the list, and then check the validity. In which case your list would be illegal with elite *and* heavy dreads.

At least, that's what I see it coming down to.

However, you will encounter someone, somewhere (probably near where I play) who follows the: Pick a unit, write it down, finish the list, and then check the validity. In which case your list would be illegal with elite *and* heavy dreads.

Again, the group you play with is reading way too far into it and comparing rules to other rules needlessly.

I think people are really missing the meaning of the word "or"; allow me to diagram it using the theory of pick a full list and then validate (although there's nothing to say that way is any better than validating as you go) :

For simplity sake D=Dreadnought, V=Venerable, E=Elite & H=Heavy Support for the following example
Now the Heed the Wisdom trait says basically that a D is valid if D is E+V OR if D is H.
So now lets say that I have my army list and in it I have 2 D's (D1 & D2)that are H's and 2 D's(D3 & D4) that are E+V's. For this example we'll say that I have no other E or H choices in the army.
So now let's validate:
To prove an "or" expression is true we use the following:
If A or B is true then the expression is true only if both are false is the expression false
ie True True => True
True False => True
False True => True
False False => False
(this is basic math; look it up)
(D is valid) = (D is (E+V)) or (D is H)
(D1 is E+V) = False (0)
(D1 is H) = True (1)
so False or True => True; D1 is valid

(D2 is E+V) = False (0)
(D2 is H) = True (1)
so False or True => True; D2 is valid

(D3 is E+V) = True (1)
(D3 is H) = False (0)
so True or False => True; D3 is valid

(D4 is E+V) = True (1)
(D4 is H) = False (0)
so True or False => True; D4 is valid

So all 4 dread satisfy the condition in the Trait so therefore they are all valid. With some basic math concepts and a strict reading of the rule I think it's fairly obvious that you can in fact have between 1 and 6 Dreads with this trait.

Posted By wldside on 03/04/2006 8:46 PM

For simplity sake D=Dreadnought, V=Venerable, E=Elite & H=Heavy Support for the following example...

Wow, all that's for simplicity's sake? Remind me never to ask you to explain something complicated.

I can't justify it with the rules but I side with the 6-Dreads-are-legal people.
Dreads are cool. More Dreads are cooler. It's a great army concept and looks good on the field. Go for it.

Abuh? Wldside you just showed us an 'as you go' validation, which we all already agree allows 6 dreads no problem. Anytime you look at a specific single dread to label it True or False, you are doing the one at a time comparison. I applaud you wanting to put time into a logical theory, but more time in prep and less time in the validation eh?

Additionally we are dealing with 'Or' vs. 'And/Or' if you'd like to apply some 'simplified' logical theory to that.

Actually, no I took an example list as a whole and applied a specific rule too it. I could haev very easily written the whole thing as a single expression but the space limitations here would have made it difficult to read. Why don't you show me how you invalidate a similar example and then maybe we can have an intelligent debate as which is the correct way to validate a list.

As for the difference between "OR" and "AND/OR" in this case there isn't one since there is no possibility that a single dreadnought can take up both a HS slot AND an Elite slot. Without the possibility of both being true there is no logical difference between the two. The situation you, and others, seem fixated upon in an "exclusive or" where in order to be true only one portion of the equation can be true. However, in order for that to be the case the rule would need to worded like Dread's ARE (not may be) selected as EITHER HS or Elite, but not both. The use in the rule of "may be" and the lack of the word "either", or any similar wording, removes any exclusivity from the equation. Thus leaving you with a basic "OR" situation.

Posted By wldside on 03/06/2006 12:50 PM

As for the difference between "OR" and "AND/OR" in this case there isn't one since there is no possibility that a single dreadnought can take up both a HS slot AND an Elite slot. Without the possibility of both being true there is no logical difference between the two. The situation you, and others, seem fixated upon in an "exclusive or" where in order to be true only one portion of the equation can be true. However, in order for that to be the case the rule would need to worded like Dread's ARE (not may be) selected as EITHER HS or Elite, but not both. The use in the rule of "may be" and the lack of the word "either", or any similar wording, removes any exclusivity from the equation. Thus leaving you with a basic "OR" situation.

That's pretty solid, and I agree with your clarification on the exclusive 'OR'.  Even in a completed list validation check method, it would need to be exclusive to preclude 6 dreads.  You are missing the point of the completed list validation, but it really wont be important since we agree the OR isn't exclusive.

Completed list validation would look at the choices as a whole, so: Are there Elite dreads?  Yes. Are there Heavy dreads?  Yes.  - An exclusive 'OR' would make this illegal.  It's not specifically exclusive so it's legal afterall.   

Interestingly an exclusive 'OR' would have no bearing on the pick-validate-pick method. 

I pick a dread, it can be made either Elite or heavy but not both, I make it heavy

I pick a dread, it can be made either elite or heavy but not both, I make it elite

etc...

 

How is anyone having a problem interpreting this rule? Nowhere does it ever say a person can take a limited number of dreads, neither in the normal dread entry or in the Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients entry. The number one can take is never stated, what is stated is the number of Force Organization choices a person can take and what units can be taken in those areas.
A standard Force Organization allows three elite and three heavy choices. With Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients, you can place a dread in either an Elite or Heavy slot. As you have a total of six choices here. you can have six dreads.

You've ignored the thread entirely.  Next time just say BUMP.

 

Man, I hate getting involved in this debate, but I have a degree in English Literature where I specialized primarily in linguistics and the history of the English Language, and I see way too many misapprehensions concerning Standard Written English.

I see a lot of references to an "exclusive or." In all the reading and looking around in my grammar books, I can find no reference to an "exlusive or." The word "or" is a coordinating conjunction. It merely provides a linkage between words in a sentence. According to the Random House Dictionary of the English Langauge, or merely provides a linkage in a sentence between a list of options (being a conjunction, there is no true definition, just like there is no true definition for prepositions). There is nothing in any of the usage manuals that I have that indicates that "or" used by itself as a coordinating conjunction even implies that only one of the options may be selected from the list provided in the sentence. To quote James Fernald's English Grammar Simplified (pg 152-153) "A coordinate conjunction is a conjunction that joins two coordinate elements, that is, elements of equal order or rank, as two nouns, two verbs, two phrases, or two clauses, neither of which is dependent on the other." As you can read from this very example, "or" does not mean that only one of these options can be selected for use by a coordinate conjunction; all of these options can use a coordinate conjunction, ie., no "exclusivity."

However, there is such a thing as a correlative conjunction. There are two word combinations such as "both...and," not only...but also," neither...nor" and "either...or." In the case of "either...or," exclusivity exists. In this grammatical construct, it is implicit in the sentence that only one of the options is available to selection. From the rules of Standard Written English, if GW wanted us to only be able to select on of the two Force Org slots to use for Dreads, then the rule would have been more accurately written something along the lines of "Dreadnaughts may be taken as either Elite or Heavy Support...." In this construct, it would indicate that the Codex entry "Dreadnaught" should be placed in either Elite or HS, as selected by the user (though, this construct is still a little dodgy).

A more clear construct that GW probably should have used would have been "A dreadnaught may be taken as a heavy support or elite choice." This would more clearly and concisely indicate how to choose. Unfortunately, it appears that GW's editors and their rules writers aren't really on the same page.

Anyway, I have really only touched on the subject. I know not everyone is as interested in written grammar as I am, so I'll shut up now.

If you're interested in more, you can check out Strunk & White's Elements of Style, James Fernald's English Grammar Simplified,  and Warriner's English Grammar and Composition, Fourth Course. (Yeah, I still have my senior high school English Grammar book.)

Sal.