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Hey all, working on a tourney list for vanilla marines that maximizes firepower and number of scoring units. The list I have below is heavy on both AP3 weaponry and dakka while being low on vehicles, high on model count and number of units that can fire at targets. The weakness is in assault with only one real counter-assault element so I have to count on outshooting anything coming toward me and trying to assault.

As for composition - it is an unusual list but for the tourney involved it will score MAX possible composition as the comp is based on units chosen and avoiding multiples of units, etc. Rather cumbersome and confusing, but for argument's sake - it is not a great comp list for a tourney where you are rated by opponents, but for this tourney the comp is fine.

Here's the list for your perusal and critiques:

 

1850 Vanilla Marines

HQ

Master, BP/CCW with a Command Squad of 6 marines - 2 Lascannons, 4 bolters, all with tank hunters (could switch for infiltrate to set up last) - 258 points

Reclusiarch - Plasma Pistol, Crozius, Rosarius, Jump Pack, Frags, Master-Crafted weapon and Terminator Honors - 151 points (He flies with the assault squad - right now planning on MCing the pistol rather than the Crozius to avoid getting hot)

ELITE

Techmarine - BP/Power Weapon, Auspex, Signum, Servo-Arm, along with 4 Gun Servitors - 3 Heavy Bolter, 1 Plasma Cannon - 186 points

Veteran Squad - 6 Marines, Lascannon, Plasmagun, all with Tank hunters - 133 points

TROOPS

2 X Tactical Squads - 6 man, Las, Plas - 115 points each

2 X Tactical Squads - 6 Man, Heavy Bolter, Plasman - 105 points each

FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Squadron - 2 x Tornados with AC/Heavy Bolter - 160

Assault Squad - 6 Man, 2 plasma pistols, Vet Sgt with Plasma Pistol and Powerfist - 182 points

HEAVY SUPPORT

2 X Whirlwind - 85 points each

Devastator Squad - 6 man, 4 Missile Launchers - 170 points

 

Total is 1850 points, 59 models, 4 vehicles, 10 AP3 or better shots at 48", 21 Heavy Bolter shots, 2 Pie Plates, 10 Plasma Weapons and 2 assault cannons for an awful lot of shooting per turn.

Obvious things I can see are:

1) Command squads are overpriced if you are going to use them to hunt tanks, these points are better spent elsewhere on more ocst effective heavy weapons. the master is good though

2) I would drop the Chappy for a librarian and give him Fury, he can still counter attack and can add to the firepower of your army

3) I would drop the techmarine as you are not getting very cost-effective weapons in this squad. I.e. a gun servitor pays as much as a devastator for a HB.

4) I would also drop the veterans, an equivalent tactical squad can do their job just as well for less.

5) Troops look good

6) I would up the assault squad to 8-man and take the plasma pistol off the vet sarge. It is expensive and risky.

7) Why not split the tornadoes? This gives you an extra scoring unit and makes each of them less vulnerable as there is no carryover of hits

8) I usually go for 1 heavy for every 2 men i.e. your devs would have 3 missile launchers at their current size. But this is just personal preference

I wouldn't take anything away from his critique. In other words, he pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Only thing I might change is the Libby's power to FOD, but that's just me.

Thanks for the advice guys. I would normally agree with most of the points you raise, but this Tourney has comp rules that specifically penalize you for a) taking more than 4 troops and more than 2 of every other category, b)for taking multiples of heavies, elites, fast attack and or/HQ. That basically precludes taking much of the advice you give (which in a normal game or tourney I would probably do). I realize I have a third heavy and a multiple in the form of the second Whirlwind, but the comp rules allow you to basically add one more choice and one multiple to still get full comp points. So I could drop the WHirlwind to add a third elite or fast or more troops, but I LOVE whirlwinds - especially when fielding two or three of them. They piss the hell out of IG, Eldar, Tau, Orks and other low save armies.

1. Command Squads - I find that shooty command squads aren't all that bad. Basically I get tank-hunting lascannons (2 of them) and the abilities of the Master, and I don't get penalized by the comp rules by adding another Dev squad or more Tac squads. I actually might add to the squad by finding the points for a standard bearer. Nothing like allowing your gun line to reroll morale tests at a Master's leadership.

2. This I might do, even though I LOVE chaplains in 4th Edition. I like having my assault squad fearless and using the reroll attacks, plus chaplains are a lot more cost-effective than librarians. That said, I also love the idea of Fury in this army list as it adds to both my shooting and the chances to pin that the Whirlwinds give me.

3. The techmarine I might drop if I can think of something to replace his points with. As is, he and his gun bots give me a mini-dev squad, plus auspex and signum. If I drop him I could bump up my Dev squad and Assault squad as well as add a third tornado, but I lose out on 4 heavy weapons including one marine killer/anti-tank weapon. For elites, there's nothing else I can really add at these points as I don't want a Dread (my theme being to deny my opponents' the ability to use their own tank-hunting weapons/units for anything other than killing basic troops) and Termies are TOO pricey for this list.

4. I really LIKE that Vet squad. For less than the cost of two marines I get tank-hunting and I find that Str 10 lascannons are MUCH better at making Leman Russes, etc go away than your average lascannon. Plus since I can't add more Tac squads without affecting my composition.

6) I agree with this point and if I drop the Techmarine and servitors, they will def be bumped up. I like the plasma-toting Vet Sgt though, as I have found that the risk is worth it to field 4 plasma pistols in the squad (counting Sgt and Chap) - this has allowed me to take down Monstrous critters, Tanks, Demon Princes, Termies, Obliterators, etc or at least heavilly soften them up before I assault them. My assault squad kitted like this (but 10 man) was able to take out a Templar 8 man Lightning Claw Termie squad and attached Chaplain by killing three of them with shooting before assaulting and taking out a few more and thus allowing me to wipe them out by attrition. I know its a risk, but its one I like taking and that has paid off in the past on multiple occassions.

7) Can't split them up due to comp rules without losing the Whirlwind.

8) I agree and the Dev squad will get bumped up if I drop the Techmarine.


Flagg - I would normally prefer Fury over FOD in a shooting army like this as the main units I fear getting close enough to assault me will likely be fearless ones (demons, etc).

-Thanks again and I am off to tinker with the list.

-Iron Father

Here's a idea to consider. This version should score 100% on the comp - exactly four troops and two each of Fast, Heavy, and Elite with zero repetition outside of Troops.

Honor Your Wargear

HQ
Master ? Tank Hunter 78
5 Command Marines ? Tank Hunters, 2 Lascannon 160

Reclusiarch - Jump Pack 105

ELITE
8 Devastators ? Tank Hunters; Sergeant with bolt pistol and close combat weapon;
4 Missile Launcher 224

8 Devastators ? Tank Hunters, Sergeant with bolt gun; 4 Missile Launcher 224
(see? see? they're NOT duplicates...)

TROOPS
4 X Tactical Squads - 6 man, Las, Plas 4x115

FAST
3 Typhoon Squadron 210
(maybe looks weird, but consider that the rest of the list is loaded with AT shooting and their second weapon has twice the range of an assault cannon, which seems to me to lend them to squadronning a bit better. Think of them as another three miniature flying whirldwinds. Don't forget, within 36" they also get o use their heavy bolters)
...
(okay, the real reason is there was fifty points left over after tinkering with the rest of your units...you could just have your old squadron and put the plasma pistols back on the assault marines, etc.)

8 Assault Marines ? 2 flamers, Sergeant with Terminator Honours and power fist 218

HEAVY SUPPORT

Whirlwind 85

Whirlwind ? searchlight 86
(hey, its worth a point for perfect comp...)

The only way the list suffers is a lack of an effective pushback unit.

Hey looking at the comp rules you have shown us I can see where you are coming from and only have two thoughts.

1)wight_widow's proposed list is a definite improvement.

2)When going to a tournament with comp you should weigh up how important the comp is compared to bringing a very strong army. I am happy to only score 2-3 on comp, if I know the extra teeth my army has are gonna grab me another 2-3 points in each game. Just a thought..........

Hay guys. I am in the same tourny as Iron. The way the comp works is you get hurt for duplicate units. So he would still get hurt for the 2 whirlwinds, even if one has different equipment. It makes variety a key for comp.

So ummmm, my question is who came up with this system? And how much is comp worth as a whole?

its a system used in a major canadian tourni. Here are the comp rules for our little tourny.

Army Composition will be scored as follows: Start with a full 20 points and deduct from that total as indicated below. Maximum Comp score awarded will be 16 points.
ORGANIZATION
Note: Deductions are cumulative.
· -2 points for each selection outside the blue box.
ALTERNATIVE ORGANIZATION CHART
· Some armies may add an additional Organization slot for a category at the expense of one or more other categories. Any such army counts this additional Organization slot as being inside the blue box.

. Items inside the blue box are 2 HQ, 4 Troop, 2 Elite, 2 Heavy support, and 2 Fast Attack.

SWARMS
· Any swarms which can be selected as Troops always count as being inside of the blue box regardless of the number of Troop selections in an army.
SELECTION
· -1 point for each duplicate Elite or Fast Attack selection
· -1 point for each triplicate Elite or Fast Attack selection
· -2 points for each duplicate HQ or Heavy Support selection
· -2 points for each triplicate HQ or Heavy Support selection
SPECIAL CHARACTERS
· Special characters which count as a specific type of HQ choice will be subject to the duplicate HQ rule if another HQ choice of the same type is chosen for the army.
VEHICLES
· Any Vehicles with identical Characteristics are considered the 'same' for Selection regardless of where in the Force Organization chart they may be located. Apply the greater deduction when applicable. This does not apply to non vehicle units.
· Any dedicated transport Vehicle that counts as a Scoring Unit (Land Raider) is considered as if selected from the Vehicle's unit entry (Heavy Support) for the purposes of Selection.
ELDAR
· Eldar armies count the Avatar the 'same' as a Wraithlord.
NECRONS
· Necron armies count a C'Tan the 'same' as a Necron Lord

And here is the scoring.
Point Breakdown
1. Battle ? 52% of score. 72 pts
2. Sportsmanship ? 23% of score. 32 pts
3. Judge?s scoring Army Composition ? 12% of score. 16 pts
4. Judge?s scoring Appearance ? 13% of score. 18 pts
5. *Player scoring Theme - 14 pts
6. *Player scoring Appearance - 30 points
*Used only in determining Best Painted and Best Army

Awards:
Overall: 1-4 combined
Best General: 1-2 combined
Best Sport: 2
Best Army: 3-6
Best Appearance: 4, 6 combined

Got to echo Panurgle on the comp thing. Multiples with only differences in wargear are still multiples.

**EDITED because Panurgle beat me to posting the tourney specifics**

So you can see that comp isn't THAT important overall, compared to wins and sportsmanship whcih account for 75% of your score. However my painting is only so-so and so I want to max Comp, feel pretty solid about getting close to max for sportsmanship and I tend to do ok with Battle.

My aim is to outshoot just about any army I face. At 1850 points my AP3 weaponry and high strength AT coupled with the speeders, whirlwinds and heavy bolters sprinkled throughout means I should be able to put out a LOT of dakka at 36"-48".

I like the idea of Typhoons but don't have the models att. And since my minis are Iron Hands, I can only really field them as either using IH traits or straight codex (which I prefer to the IH rules).

Still toying with dropping the Techmarine to add 2 assault marines, 2 Dev marines, another Tornado and a Standard bearer to allow me to reroll morale/leadership checks. But if I do I lose 3 heavy bolters and a plasma cannon (with rerolling to hit) for an assault cannon, heavy bolter and 4 ablative wounds. Not to mention I lose a scoring unit and a unit that can fire at another target if needed.

Sigh... I am torn.

-Iron Father