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Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Ok, I've always thought that, and argued for, every Librarian, no matter the type, being able to replace Storm with another power at the first cost listed, and that the second cost was only for an Epistolary's second power. The basis for which is that the second power is only ever mentioned in direct reference to additional Epistolary powers.

However, when I asked my local group how they play it, the response was "always use the second cost for any Epistolary power".

Now, I have to use the local ruling in my case. I have no problem with that, and it will mean a difference of only 6 points most of the time. But I was wondering, how do the rest of you play it?

I'd like to get the opinions of the serious Marine players here if at all possible, and if you don't mind, the proof behind your stance. My stance could be totally wrong, but what do the rest of you think.

 

Here is my original argument:

Premise 1: "Any Librarian ... may exchange it for another power at the points cost listed." pg 26 C:SM 
- Any Librarian pays the points cost listed, regardless of type.
 
Premise 2: "Fear of the Darkness ... Cost: +5 points (Epistolary +15 points)" pg 26 C:SM 
- Every purchaseable power has two distinct costs listed.
 
Premise 3: "An Epistolary may take an additional Psychic power at the second points cost listed." pg 26 C:SM and
- The second cost is only ever directly referenced when talking about the second power purchased.

Conclusion: An Epistolary is specifically told to use the second cost only in reference to the second power purchased. This is the only time we are told to use the second cost, therefore an Epistolary pays the first cost when replacing Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.
 
 
 
So, how do you play this locally, and what holes are in this argument?

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




You have it right.  The first cost is what you pay if you are swapping your first power with something else.  All other powers purchased are at the second cost.  Its very clear in the 'dex IMO, but you summed it up perfectly.  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Premise 1: "Any Librarian ... may exchange it for another power at the points cost listed." pg 26 C:SM
- Any Librarian pays the points cost listed, regardless of type.

Premise 2: "Fear of the Darkness ... Cost: +5 points (Epistolary +15 points)" pg 26 C:SM
- Every purchaseable power has two distinct costs listed.

Premise 3: "An Epistolary may take an additional Psychic power at the second points cost listed." pg 26 C:SM and
- The second cost is only ever directly referenced when talking about the second power purchased.

Conclusion: An Epistolary is specifically told to use the second cost only in reference to the second power purchased. This is the only time we are told to use the second cost, therefore an Epistolary pays the first cost when replacing Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.


I think you have it wrong, because even though it only specifically says to take the higher cost for the second power, it does not specifically say to take the lower cost for the first.

To whit:

"Any Librarian... may exchange it for another power at the points cost listed." The points cost listed for an Epistolary is the higher cost. It's there in black and white. It doesn't say, 'Epistolary 2nd Power 15 pts', for instance. It lists a cost for Epistolarys, and a cost for Codiciers. If you exchange the power, and you are an Epistolary, you pay the listed cost, which is the higher one.

Even if it does say, 'An Epistolary may take an additional psychic power at the second points cost listed', it does also say that you buy powers at the listed cost. If you are an Epistolary, there is a specific listed cost, so it must be that.

Furthermore, the Librarian entry on p28 does not reference the second cost specifically. It says "They[Librarians] may replace this power with an alternative Psychic power at the cost specified on page 21". The cost specified, for an Epistolary, is clearly the higher one. It also says 'In addition, an Epistolary may take a second psychic power at the listed cost". No mention of using one lower cost and one higher cost, just a listed cost.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Well those in my area always use the same rule as you an Apnu, we disagree with Relic. . .

However Relic does have a point, I would simply ask your local gaming guru. . . once the players involved make a descision stick with it until you see faq. . .
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Page 26 of the SM codex says and I quote ""An Epistolary may take an additonal psychic power at the second points cost listed." End of story. I think argurments that all Epistolaries have to take higher points on all powers (first and second) is splitting hairs.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Page 26 of the SM codex says and I quote ""An Epistolary may take an additonal psychic power at the second points cost listed." End of story. I think argurments that all Epistolaries have to take higher points on all powers (first and second) is splitting hairs.


And you are absolutely right - when an Epistolary takes an additional power, he uses the second points cost listed. That's without question. Unfortunately, we are now discussing what it should cost an Epistolary to exchange his first power, which is not covered by your quote.

For that, we look at this rules quote: "[Librarians] may replace this power with an alternative Psychic power at the cost listed on page 21". (p28) What is the cost listed on page 21? It reads, taking Fury as an example, "Cost: +3 pts (Epistolary +9 points)". That is not a grey area - it lists a separate cost for Epistolarys, which is therefore the listed cost.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

"Any Librarian... may exchange it for another power at the points cost listed." This means that this rule applies to ALL Librarians, not just Codicers. ("It", in this case, means Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.)

"An Epistolary may take an additional psychic power at the second points cost." This means that only the SECOND power is priced at the second cost.

Really, it's not hard... if you READ the RULES.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




"Any Librarian... may exchange it for another power at the points cost listed." This means that this rule applies to ALL Librarians, not just Codicers. ("It", in this case, means Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.)


Yes, but that's not the argument. Nobody is arguing that Epistolarys cannot exchange Storm for another power at the listed points cost. You appear to be confused as to what a listed points cost is.

Once again, on page 21, it lists costs. It says, very clearly, 'Cost: +3 points (Epistolary +9 points)'. Your argument appears to be that when it says 'listed cost', it actually is saying 'only the first listed cost for both Epistolarys and Codiciers', or perhaps you believe that when it says 'Epistolary +9 points', it doesn't actually mean Epistolary. This argument is totally baseless.

"An Epistolary may take an additional psychic power at the second points cost." This means that only the SECOND power is priced at the second cost.


For that to be true, it would have to use words like 'only the second power is at the second points cost' or something similar. You have, for some reason, inserted the word 'only' where there is no reason to have it. Perhaps your book says something different to mine.

Really, it's not hard... if you READ the RULES.


Exactly.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

The second cost is only for Epistolaries because only they can take a second power. Hence only an Epistolary will pay that points cost. It does not override the rules that lord_sutekh has quoted.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




The second cost is only for Epistolaries because only they can take a second power. Hence only an Epistolary will pay that points cost. It does not override the rules that lord_sutekh has quoted.


Nor does my argument - I am not in disagreement with the rules he has quoted. Both of you are, however, making the error of assuming that when it lists a cost for an Epistolary to buy a power, it really means that an Epistolary should disregard that cost in one instance and not in another. That is not supported by anything in the Codex or the rules.

The entry for Librarians only says, 'Librarians may exchange it for another power at the listed cost'. There are two listed costs on page 21. One has no modifier, the other says 'Epistolary'. For some reason, you believe that an Epistolary should disregard a cost listed specifically for it, despite the fact that there is nothing that tells him to disregard it.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

And you've yet to explain this:

An Epistolary may take an additional Psychic power at the second points cost listed.

Why specifically mention that the Epistolary uses the second point cost for an additional power if he always uses the second point cost anyway?

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Why specifically mention that the Epistolary uses the second point cost for an additional power if he always uses the second point cost anyway?


A sudden attack of clarity? An unnecessary overstatement?

It is quite possible that the intent was for the second points cost to be used only for an Epistolary's second power. That may be the case, but we are not mind readers. The fact remains that the rules are quite clear. The listed points cost, for an Epistolary, is very clearly the higher one whether it is his first, second, or only power. The rules say that you replace powers at the listed points cost. The specific mention you quote does not contradict or override that rule, nor does the rule for using the higher points cost contradict or override your quote. Since the rules are clear, and there are no contradictions, the points cost you use is also clear.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

Quote rules, not intent. Show where in the rules it says that an Epistolary uses the second points value at all times. So far, that has not been done.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Quote rules, not intent. Show where in the rules it says that an Epistolary uses the second points value at all times. So far, that has not been done.


Actually, I have shown it in every post I have made in this thread. Please read my posts. Particularly if you are going to make erroneous statements like assuming I am arguing from intent, when I am stating the rules in every single post I make.

For excessive clarity, I will do so once more. On page 28, it very clearly says '[Librarians] may replace this power with an alternative power at the cost listed on page 21.'

What is the cost listed on page 21? Using Fury as an example, it very clearly says, Cost: +3 points (Epistolary +9 points) .

Now, just in case you want to accuse me of arguing from intent again, let me go through the steps in as simple a way as I can.

Step 1. I buy an Epistolary Librarian.
Step 2. The Epistolary has Storm of the Emperor's Wrath for no extra cost.
Step 3. I want to replace this power with Fury of the Ancients.
Step 4. I read the entry on page 28. It says I may replace this power at the cost listed on page 21.
Step 5. I look at page 21.
Step 6. On page 21, it says, under the Fury entry, 'Cost: +3 points (Epistolary +9 points).
Step 7. I check once more that I have an Epistolary Librarian.
Step 8. The listed cost for an Epistolary is very clearly 9 points, so that is what I pay.

I don't think I can make it any more clear than this. Unless you actually read what I am writing and make the necessary effort to respond in some meaningful way to what I am actually saying, rather than accuse me of not responding to you, this discussion cannot continue. I don't really want to repeat myself in every single post I make here.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

It is quite possible that the intent was for the second points cost to be used only for an Epistolary's second power.


That's not arguing intent?

And he's still a Librarian, so he uses the first points. Also, it says that the only time you use the second price is when the Epistolary buys a second power. You're talking around the rules, which is why you have to repeat your erroneous position each time.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Actually it is the same as the split cost for wargear...Vet sgts pay one cost, IC's pay another. It makes sense that with the higher leadership, the power is more effective and thus costs more points.

Besides the fact that Relic appears to be correct on a RAW level. It gives a cost for an Epistolary. The cost isn't labeled 'second power', it is labeled 'Epistolary'.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I still contend that it says on page 21: "An Epistolary may take an additional psychic power at the second points cost listed." (emphisis mine)  So an additional power is at the second points listed.  The first Epistolary power cost is the first cost listed, and his second power is at the higher cost, due to the paragraph at the top of the page.

If the Epistolary's cost was always the same, then that sentance would say that the Epistolary must always pay the higher points. It does not, the statement as it is in the 'dex was put there for a specific reason.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




That's not arguing intent?


If you read carefully, you will see that when I theorise as to the intent of the rules, I theorise that the intent may be the case you argue. My actual argument, which I have iterated in every post and supported with rules, is the exact opposite. I theorise to intent only to answer Ghaz, who insists that I must explain a sentence that is not directly pertinent to the question. As it happens, an argument from intent is the only support your position has. So, in fact, it is you who is arguing intent.

And he's still a Librarian, so he uses the first points. ... You're talking around the rules, which is why you have to repeat your erroneous position each time.


I don't see how you can support this idea. The book very clearly says two costs. One has no modifier, one says 'Epistolary'. For some reason, you are saying that even though it says 'Cost: Epistolary', it doesn't mean that at all, and the Epistolary should disregard a cost listed specifically with its name.

I could say that when you have two rules and one is more specific, the more specific one applies. I shouldn't need to, though, because the quoted rules are very obvious. You are, in effect, saying that if a piece of wargear has two costs, one for Space Marines, and one for Chaplains, then the Chaplain should buy it at the first cost, because he is a Space Marine. Never mind that it specifically singles out a Chaplain for a higher cost - that part means nothing to you.

It is exactly the same here. There are two costs listed - one says, very specifically, Epistolary. It doesn't say, '2nd Power'. It doesn't say, 'Epistolary 2nd Power'. It says, 'Epistolary'. It is not a difficult task to see that when it says 'Cost: Epistolary', it means that that is the cost for an Epistolary. We are told, in the rules, "[Librarians] may replace this power with an alternative power at the cost specified on page 21". It doesn't say, 'at the cheaper listed cost'. It doesn't say, 'at the first listed cost'. It doesn't say 'disregard the Epistolary cost'. It says, 'listed cost'. If the 'listed cost' says 'Epistolary: +x points', and you have an Epistolary, what possible justification could you have for disregarding that listed cost?

This appears to be your only justification:

"An Epistolary may take an additional psychic power at the second points cost." This means that only the SECOND power is priced at the second cost.


You must have the Invisible Ink printing of the Codex, then, because in that rules quote, I don't see the word 'only' at all. I see a statement that tells us that an Epistolary's second power is at the second points cost. I don't see, 'only the second power is at the second points cost'. I don't see, 'an Epistolary buys his first power at a cheaper cost'. I see a statement that tells us what an Epistolary's second power costs. And if I disagreed with the cost of an Epistolary's second power, this quote might have relevance. As it happens, we are arguing what an Epistolary's first replacement power costs. And this quote does not mention this first replacement power at all - it only tells us something about his second power.

I still contend that it says on page 21: "An Epistolary may take an additional psychic power at the second points cost listed." (emphisis mine) So an additional power is at the second points listed.


100% correct. Again, though, this quote is not material to what the first replacement power costs.

The first Epistolary power cost is the first cost listed, and his second power is at the higher cost, due to the paragraph at the top of the page.


If that were true, there would be no argument. Unfortunately, this is a baseless assertion. The paragraph at the top of the page, just like the Librarian entry on page 28, says only that the Librarian replaces his power at the 'listed cost', or 'specified cost'. It does not say, 'cheaper listed cost', or 'first specified cost'. It says 'listed cost'. To assume that when it says 'listed cost', it really means 'cheaper cost', is not supported by the rules. There are two 'listed costs' - one is very clearly marked 'Epistolary'. I don't see how you can argue that when it lists a cost and mentions an Epistolary by name, he gets to ignore that cost without being told to ignore it.

In fact, in the vain hope that a very simple question will somehow elicit a meaningful argument in response, let me put this question to those that disagree with me.

The book says only that a Librarian may replace his first power at the listed cost on page 21.

The listed costs on page 21 have two values. One says, 'Epistolary'.

Why, then, do you assume that an Epistolary gets to disregard a cost that is designated specifically with its name, even though nothing at all tells him to disregard this cost for any reason?
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Why, then, do you assume that an Epistolary gets to disregard a cost that is designated specifically with its name, even though nothing at all tells him to disregard this cost for any reason?


Because the paragraph at the top of page 26 says "... additional ... at the second points cost." Looking at Fear of the Darkness. It has point listed in order "Cost: +5 points (Epistolary +15 points)." Notice an order there, first points is +5 and the second points is +15. In english we read left to right, so it is easy to figure out what the order of the costs are. For what its worth, the guys who maintain the AB file for 40K agree with me. Fear of the Darkness is +5 points if you take it as the first power of the Episoltary. Also, has it occured to anybody to give GW a call and ask them what they think?
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Because the paragraph at the top of page 26 says "... additional ... at the second points cost." Looking at Fear of the Darkness. It has point listed in order "Cost: +5 points (Epistolary +15 points)." Notice an order there, first points is +5 and the second points is +15. In english we read left to right, so it is easy to figure out what the order of the costs are.


But again, you are proving something that we can all agree on. We all agree that the additional power is bought at the second points cost. This discussion is about what it costs to replace the first power.

In response to that, you say that this line:

"An Epistolary may take an additional Psychic power at the second points cost listed."


actually says, "An Epistolary only has to pay a higher points cost when he takes a second power."

That's not what it says. It says what it costs for an Epistolary to take a second power.

So, once again, this discussion is only about what it costs for an Epistolary to replace his first power, not what his second power costs. The quote you and others keep bringing up is only about his additional power.

The relevant quotes when replacing a power are:

"[Librarians] may replace this power with an alternative Psychic power at the cost listed on page 21".


and

'Cost: +3 points (Epistolary +9 points)'


From here, your argument seems to be:

1. I have an Epistolary, who is replacing his power at the cost listed on page 21.
2. There are two costs listed on page 21, one of which refers specifically to an Epistolary.
3. My Epistolary doesn't pay the Epistolary cost, because they don't really mean that.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

Relic,

I think, perhaps, that you are mistaken. There are two separate points costs listed for a reason - and that reason is not so that the epistolary can pay the second cost both times. There are two separate actions that librarians can perform re purchasing psychic powers:

1. Exchange a power for the points listed

2.Purchase a second power for the points listed

What you get is one cost for exchange and one for outright purchase. Why do i think this? Because the variable points in the exchange listing imply that Storm has a point value, against which the other powers are measured. This is why the various powers have different costs to exchange.  On the other hand we have the second column where Epistolaries can purchase a second power outright.  This column has a higher points cost because you are not applying the value of Storm to an exchange.

Cheers, F


He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




What you get is one cost for exchange and one for outright purchase. Why do i think this? Because the variable points in the exchange listing imply that Storm has a point value, against which the other powers are measured. This is why the various powers have different costs to exchange. On the other hand we have the second column where Epistolaries can purchase a second power outright. This column has a higher points cost because you are not applying the value of Storm to an exchange.


That's an interesting theory, but it is just a theory. I could just as easily put forward the theory that an Epistolary pays more to exchange his power because he has a higher Leadership and more wounds, thus making the power more useful. That is, after all, the same reason a multiwound character pays more for his wargear versus a veteran sergeant.

Theories aside, the rules are not really ambiguous, and they are what we must accept as fact. They say that for any Librarian to exchange his power, he pays the listed point cost on page 21. There are two listed point costs on page 21, and one is very clearly denoted 'Epistolary'. To say that an Epistolary doesn't have to pay a listed cost that is very clearly marked out specifically for him is against the rules, particularly when the only reason that you have to say that is 'well, they didn't really mean it'. It would be like trying to take a Holy Relic on a Standard Bearer attached to your Librarian command squad. Your opponent would then say, but it says Holy Relics only go on Reclusiam Standard Bearers, to which you are saying, well, they didn't really mean it. Mean it or not, that's what the book says.

***

Let me try to illustrate this debate by an example. Maybe that will make things a little clearer.

You walk into a theatre. On the wall, it says, "You may purchase tickets at the listed price."

You look at the sign underneath. It says, "Tickets - $5. Tickets for males - $10."

Next to this, there is another sign. It says, "Males may purchase an additional ticket for $10."

Now, by your argument, you go to the counter and try to buy a ticket for $5. I assume that you are male, because girls do not argue about 40k rules on the internet. The guy at the counter says, "But you're male - you pay $10 for tickets."

By your argument, you then say, "No, that sign says that I only pay $10 for my second ticket."

The guy at the counter would then say, "No, it says that you can buy a second ticket for $10. That sign says that you buy them at the listed price, and the listed price for you, because you're a male, is $10."

I'm not sure what the opposing view might say to this, because all the counterarguments have essentially stated the words of the second sign over and over again. The fact is, both this example and the Codex list a specific price for a specific type of person. They tell you to pay the listed price. How can you then say that that specific type of person doesn't have to pay the price listed for him?

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

"You look at the sign underneath. It says, "Tickets - $5. Tickets for males - $10."

But this isn't what the sign says. It says "to exchange a ticket - rates variable, to purchase an additional ticket $10"

Your argument would work if the first rate actually said codicers, but it doesn't. There's no logical move that gets you from x/epistolary to codicer/epistolary without making an assumption. My interpretation adds nothing to the rules, two listings both with a reference in the rules - exchange and E secondary purchase are both specifically mentioned. Your interpretation takes the E mention and then has to add to the rule the word codicer in front of the second.

No amount straw manning, nor excess usage of the word 'fact', nor sarcastic examples will make your argument.

For example:

"There are two listed point costs on page 21, and one is very clearly denoted 'Epistolary'. To say that an Epistolary doesn't have to pay a listed cost that is very clearly marked out specifically for him is against the rules, particularly when the only reason that you have to say that is 'well, they didn't really mean it'."

I never said that the epistolary doesn't pay the listed points cost, he does for the second power.

"'well, they didn't really mean it'"

There's the straw man part. Bad Relic.

You fail to grasp that my argument fails to contradict either the letter or spirit of the rule in question, while yours actually does, at least the letter anyway.

The rule says:

Librarians pay to exchange/ Epistolaries pay to purchase

The Psychic Power page says:

(unlabled) + point cost/ epistolary + point cost

You want to change the word 'librarian' to the word 'codicer', and then further insert that new word into the listings for points cost, which you can't with out changing the RAW. If you simply add codicer to the point cost page (which is the crux of your argument) based on a flawed reading of 'epistolary's presence on the same page then the rule doesn't make any sense. Your argument further requires an actual editinig of the librarian entry to read 'codicer' instead of 'librarian' because you think "that's what they meant". As you said - the rules aren't ambiguos at all.

Cheers, F


He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




You fail to grasp that my argument fails to contradict either the letter or spirit of the rule in question, while yours actually does, at least the letter anyway.


In what way? The rules say that a Librarian exchanges his power for the listed points cost. You say that the listed points cost is always the cheaper cost, but it doesn't say that. It just says, listed points cost. I merely say that the listed points cost, for an Epistolary, is the points cost that uses the word 'Epistolary'.

The only way my position would contradict rules would be if there was a rule that said, 'Librarians pay the cheaper cost to exchange powers', or 'Librarians pay the first cost to exchange powers'. There is no such rule. There is only a rule that says, 'Librarians pay the listed cost to exchange powers'.

On the other hand, your position does, in fact, contradict the letter of the rule. You say that an Epistolary does not have to pay a cost that is labeled for Epistolarys, even though nothing tells him to disregard that cost.

I'm not adding any words like 'Codicier'. I am only saying this: an Epistolary pays the cost that clearly is denoted for Epistolarys. No more.

The rule says:

Librarians pay to exchange


Correct. What do they pay? They pay, as quoted, the 'listed cost on page 21'. What is the listed cost on page 21?

The Psychic Power page says:

(unlabled) + point cost/ epistolary + point cost


Again, correct. You say that I want to add the word 'Codicier'. I do not. This argument is not concerned with Codiciers. I am only concerned with what an Epistolary pays. You have stated yourself the two relevant parts - Librarians pay to exchange powers, and they pay the listed cost on the page you just quoted.

Now, here is where we disagree. You say, for some reason, that an Epistolary must pay to exchange his power, but he doesn't pay the cost that says 'Epistolary'. There is no logical reason for that.

It doesn't say anywhere that he pays the cheaper cost. It doesn't label the first cost as 'Exchange Cost' - you said it yourself, it is unlabeled. All we know for sure is that the second cost is labeled 'Epistolary'. So what does an Epistolary pay to exchange his power? The listed cost. What is the listed cost for an Epistolary? It must be the one marked 'Epistolary'. Why would you think otherwise?

Put in premise form:

P1. A Librarian pays the listed cost on page 21 to exchange his power. (p28)
P2. There are two listed costs on page 21 - one has no label, one is marked for Epistolarys.

Conclusion: An Epistolary pays the cost on page 21 that is marked for Epistolarys.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

"Put in premise form:

P1. A Librarian pays the listed cost on page 21 to exchange his power. (p28)
P2. There are two listed costs on page 21 - one has no label, one is marked for Epistolarys.

Conclusion: An Epistolary pays the cost on page 21 that is marked for Epistolarys."

Your argument is incomplete and misleading to boot.

The rule says

P1. librarians pay the listed cost on page 21 to exchange his power
P2. (missing premise) epistolarys pay the listed cost on page 21 to purchase and additional power
P3. there are two listed costs on page 21 - a) has no lable, b) is marked for epistolarys
P4. 'librarians' refers to both codicers and epistolarys
P5. the two seperate references to 'costs on page 21' refer to the two separate costs actually listed on page 21

Conclusion: Librarians pay the cost listed in a) for the action in P1 and epstolarys pay the cost listed in b) for the action in P2


He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




P5. the two seperate references to 'costs on page 21' refer to the two separate costs actually listed on page 21


This is an assumption. What we know for sure is that one of these costs is marked 'Epistolary'. When an Epistolary is trying to exchange his power, he has two costs to choose from - one is not labelled, and one is marked 'Epistolary'. You say that the first cost is for 'Librarians' - it's not labelled, but sure. You then say that an Epistolary can disregard the cost listed specifically for him, because he only has to pay the first cost, which is for Librarians in general.

This is false. When you have two rules, and one is more specific, you must follow the more specific rule. One cost is not labelled, one is labelled specifically for Epistolarys. You say that this first cost is the cost for all powers to be exchanged. We don't know that - it doesn't say that. It only says that powers are exchanged for the 'listed cost on page 21'. There are two listed costs. The second one doesn't say 'Second Power'. It only says 'Epistolary'. The only assumption I therefore make is that when a listed cost names a character specifically, that is the listed cost for that character.

We know these things for sure:
1) There are two costs on page 21 - one is unlabelled, one is marked 'Epistolary'.
2) A Librarian must pay the cost on page 21 to exchange his power.
3) When an Epistolary buys a second power, he pays the second listed cost.

That's it. We don't know that the first cost should actually be called 'Exchange Cost' - it doesn't say that. We don't know that the second cost is only marked 'Epistolary' as shorthand for 'Epistolary 2nd Power' - it doesn't say that. We don't know that there are two costs listed because they refer to the two actions, as you say - exchange and purchase. It doesn't say that - it only marks one cost as 'Epistolary'. We only know those three things.

So, then, when an Epistolary wants to exchange his first power, he knows from 2) that he must pay the cost on page 21. On page 21, there are two costs - one is marked 'Epistolary'; we know that from 1). Now, he cannot disregard the cost marked 'Epistolary' - nothing tells him to disregard this cost. He must therefore pay the cost that is marked specifically for him.

In summation,
P1. librarians pay the listed cost on page 21 to exchange his power
P2. (missing premise) epistolarys pay the listed cost on page 21 to purchase and additional power
P3. there are two listed costs on page 21 - a) has no lable, b) is marked for epistolarys
P4. 'librarians' refers to both codicers and epistolarys
P5. the two seperate references to 'costs on page 21' refer to the two separate costs actually listed on page 21

Conclusion: Librarians pay the cost listed in a) for the action in P1 and epstolarys pay the cost listed in b) for the action in P2


Your P5 is an assumption that is not directly supported by the rules. It does not say that. It only specifies that you pay the higher cost to buy a second power. It does not specify that you always pay the lower cost to exchange a power. Furthermore, your Conclusion does not follow from your premises - you are assuming that the unlabelled cost should read 'Exchange Cost for Librarians'.

Furthermore, I have posed this question, or some variant, in many of the posts I've made in this thread, and I'm getting somewhat surprised that the argument has gone on this long without anyone posing any sort of valid reply to it. Perhaps you would. The question is:

What does a Librarian pay to exchange his power? The listed cost on page 21. If you are an Epistolary, what is the listed cost on page 21? It must be the one marked 'Epistolary'. Why would you think otherwise?
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Philadelphia

I'm with Relic on this one.  The Epistolary Librarian pays the second cost at all times.  It seems fairly straightforward in the codex, I'm really not sure how people are interpreting this differently.

I won't try to make an argument for my position as Relic has said it way more eloquently than I could.


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"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




After reviewing this thread, I have to agree with Relic. And this is coming from a guy who used to play it the other way. Good gaming!

Clarence
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




OK Relic tell me if you think this legal.

I purchase an Epistolary @ 115 pts. I want him to have Veil of Time, under your Idea I would have to pay an additional +30 points for it. So his total is 145 points to swap Storm for Veil. I have one, and only one, power on the Epostilary.

So if that +30 is the cost for Veil, then what is the second cost mentioned in the books for Veil?

Another example, I buy an Epistolary @ 115 pts. I leave Storm on him, and as my second power I take Veil... which would be what? +10 points? Being that there are two points listings for the power, and by your argument, the first power is +30 (as you suppose is the Epostiolary's cost) so the additional power at the second points cost, as I'm instucted on the same page, must be +10 because its the only other points listed there.

Now I have an Epistolary that has two powers at 125 points instead of 145 if I have just one power. That makes no sense to me from a game design perspective. It would be cheaper to have a Epistolary w/ 2 powers than an Epistolary with one power other than Storm.

I believe what GW means is the higher cost is the one labled Epistolary's second power choice. And that the power for a Codicier as well as the Epostilary's first power is the lower cost listed. Otherwise its cheaper to have the Epistolary with two powers, one being Storm (which is included in the inital cost).

And I agree with Fenris-77 that the lower cost takes into consideration of the cost of Storm when swapping it out for another power. Think of it as the difference between the cost of Storm and whatever the other power is.

As for the idea that Epistolaries pay a higher cost for their powers just like multi-wound characters pay more for some wargear, I'd buy that idea. If, in every case, the psychic power wasn't 3x higher than a Codicier. A plasma pistol for a vet is 10 points, but for a Captian its 15 points. OK, that's a 1/3 increase (most of them are on that page, or they are 1/2 increase). Fury of the Ancients is 3 points and 3x higher (at 9 points) because the Epostilary has one extra wound?!?! That makes no sense and doesn't jive with the rest of the split cost items in the wargear sections which most confirm to the 1/x extra cost math. I don't think looking to the wargear section of the codex is of any help on this conversation.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




OK Relic tell me if you think this legal.

I purchase an Epistolary @ 115 pts. I want him to have Veil of Time, under your Idea I would have to pay an additional +30 points for it. So his total is 145 points to swap Storm for Veil. I have one, and only one, power on the Epostilary.

So if that +30 is the cost for Veil, then what is the second cost mentioned in the books for Veil?


30 points. It's the second cost out of the two.

Another example, I buy an Epistolary @ 115 pts. I leave Storm on him, and as my second power I take Veil... which would be what? +10 points? Being that there are two points listings for the power, and by your argument, the first power is +30 (as you suppose is the Epostiolary's cost) so the additional power at the second points cost, as I'm instucted on the same page, must be +10 because its the only other points listed there.

Now I have an Epistolary that has two powers at 125 points instead of 145 if I have just one power. That makes no sense to me from a game design perspective. It would be cheaper to have a Epistolary w/ 2 powers than an Epistolary with one power other than Storm.


But it wouldn't be legal. You would have paid the first cost for your power. As you painstakingly pointed out, in English we read left to right, so the second cost is the second one we read, which is the higher one. We all agree that when an Epistolary buys a second power, he pays the higher cost. So why would you now think otherwise?

I believe what GW means is the higher cost is the one labled Epistolary's second power choice. And that the power for a Codicier as well as the Epostilary's first power is the lower cost listed. Otherwise its cheaper to have the Epistolary with two powers, one being Storm (which is included in the inital cost).

And I agree with Fenris-77 that the lower cost takes into consideration of the cost of Storm when swapping it out for another power. Think of it as the difference between the cost of Storm and whatever the other power is.


That's fine, but the rules say different.
   
 
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