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Made in au
Drone without a Controller




Perth, Australia

Tuesday, March 07, 2006
11:06:30

Have found some potential probs with drones in the new codex.

1) Sniper team:

Do the the drones in this team survive if the target designator is destroyed? In the general rules for drones, if the model with the controller dies, all count as destroyed?

The problem with this is this rule relates to the drones being attached to an independent character. The sniper leader is NOT an independant character. So, does that mean that the drones can function without him?

2) Drones in Piranha Squadrons:

Squadron of 3 piranha. One goes down to enemy fire. Normal drone rules have not changed here. Drones detach from piranha like disembarking troops, rolling for wounds as normal.

BUT under gun drone rules in the new codex. All gun drones in squadron must detach at the same time.

So, 1 vehicle takes a hit and ALL drones in squadron detach? - including drones that were not even on the vehicle that was hit??

Does not make sense but it IS what the new codex says....

On another forum it was suggested to me that the drones on the downed Piranha would be the only one's to detach as each vehicle has it's own drone controller. I am willing to accept this as a viable solution. BUT opponents could argue that this is not as written?

Interesting points:

a) There is no mention of drones going to leadership 4 when going below 4 models anymore. So, they are now much more likely to hang around when things get tough....All of a sudden, gun drone squadron's are starting to look more useful?

b) Shield drones now have an "X" on toughness and save stats. Meaning they now take there attached units stats....Attached to broadsides for a 2+ save - very nice.....




"Tau - the close combat army"
 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


You haven't provided enough quotes for someone without the codex to contribute to this discussion, and for most of us on this board (living in the US) the codex is not available. . .



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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




St. George, UT

I don't have the codex yet, but the piranha issue seems like its being a lot harder on people than it is. If by the rules that all drones have to disembark at the same time and become a unit, then any disembarking by a drone (forced or not) triggers all of the drones to detach and form up into a unit.

Why is this so hard to grasp? In the event that the Piranha is destroyed and the drones become entangled, then I'd assume that the entangled status happens to all the drones as you are forced to move at the rate of the slowest model, in this case (0). Not sure about who could possibly shoot (if any).

A more interesting issue would be if niether drone survives the explosion.

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Made in au
Drone without a Controller




Perth, Australia

Sorry, codex landed Australia on the 1st March. Still reading it, so I may have missed something....

But to quote:

page30: drones are treated as passengers if the vehicle is damaged....

page31: All Gun Drones on a vehicle or in a Piranha squadron must disembark at the same time, counting as a single unit.

As to the sniper team, I think I have worked it out....the codex uses the phrases "independent character" and "character" in the same paragraph. I believe that my original interpretation was incorrect. The sniper drone leader IS a character and so if he dies, then the drones are removed at the end of the shooting or assault phase in which he died....It would be the same if a stealth team leader with a drone controller died......

"Tau - the close combat army"
 
   
Made in au
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




Australia

While all the drones must diembark at the same time, forming a single unit, the rule doesn't disallow the unit of drones forming multiple units due to drones "disembarking" due to a piranha being destroyed. If 1 is destroyed in a unit of 3, and the 2 drones survive, you can disembark the other 4 drones later and have 2 seperate units.

109/20/22 w/d/l
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Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA



Remember Onlainari, rules are permissive. They don't have to say that the drones aren't all allowed to form separate units, the rules would have to specifically allow them to do so.

Without seeing the codex its hard to say, but unless stated otherwise the drones are part of a single unit (the Piranha unit), and assuming that the rules are similar to the current codex, the only reason they may detach and form their own unit at all is because the rules allow them to.

That said, if the wording is similar to the current codex (or what snippets have been posted here already) there would be nothing allowing the individual drones from each vehicle to form their own seperate units from each other.

If one set of drones were forced to detach, then in order for the drone unit to maintain coherency the player would be compelled to detach them all right there.


Although again, this is all complete speculation on my part at this time.




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I agree with Yak's assessment on this. If the rule states that all must disembark at the same time and one of the Pirahna go down then all of the drones are forced to disembark. The rule does not define a reason for the drones disembarking... meaning there isn't a list of reasons as to why the drones are disembarking and how those reasons relate to the rule, they either disembark or they don't.

If one does then they all do.

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





One of the things that I have seen people say it that since one of the pirahna is down it is now a wreck and is not part of the pirahna squadron anymore.  Since it is not part of the squadron the drones on the other pirahna do not have to disembark because they are not part of the same unit.

I don't have the rulebook in front of me but does the rule of destruction of vehicle talk about passenger or model in the unit.  I hope it is not the last one because it can cause another problem if one pirahna is destroyed and we have to wound 10 drones
   
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Certainly a squadron does not have to maintain unit coherence with a wrecked vehicle.

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One of the things that I have seen people say it that since one of the pirahna is down it is now a wreck and is not part of the pirahna squadron anymore. Since it is not part of the squadron the drones on the other pirahna do not have to disembark because they are not part of the same unit.


True... plus, who's to say that the rule doesn't relate strictly to the movement phase when it says "Disembark" since that is the only phase you can voluntarily "disembark".

Certainly a squadron does not have to maintain unit coherence with a wrecked vehicle.


Of course not, though, that is not the issue. The issue here involves the drones attached to the vehicle(s). Normally when destroyed a Tau skimmer with drones releases it's drones as if they were crew. The problem here is the main rules for the drones (that they all must disembark simultaneously) and how it relates to the enemy shooting or assault phases in which one vehicle in the squadron is destroyed and is forced to release it's drones.

This is another fine mess GW has gotten us into, I mean when have we ever had to worry about "transported" crew in a vehicle squadron!?!? Imagine if there was such a thing as a Squadron of Rhinos with Tactical marines!!! As a squadron they had to stay in coherency and they also had the rule for disembarking all at once... imagine if one gets destroyed and then what do you do? Interesting...

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in au
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




Australia

Posted By yakface on 03/07/2006 6:02 AM

Remember Onlainari, rules are permissive. They don't have to say that the drones aren't all allowed to form separate units, the rules would have to specifically allow them to do so.


Sorry I could have been more clear. What I was trying to say doesn't matter anyway, I was wrong. I've just read the drone rule.

Page 30 TE: are treated as passengers if the vehicle is damaged.

Page 31 TE: All Gun Drones on a vehicle or in a Piranha squadron must disembark at the same time, counting as a single unit.

Page 68 BGB: Passengers carried aboard a vehicle that is destroyed or suffers a penetrating hit... must make an immediate disembarkation move.

P1: Drones make a disembarkation move when a single piranha is destroyed in a squadron.

P2: All drones in a piranha squadron must disembark at the same time.

C1: When a piranha is destroyed in a squadron, all drones must disembark from their respective piranhas and form a single unit.

C2: A destroyed piranha no longer counts as part of the piranha squadron, its drones are not subject to the rule on page 31 TE, they form a unit and no other drones must disembark.

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I don't think C2 is supported by either P1 or P2....

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Posted By scramasax on 03/07/2006 12:12 PM
One of the things that I have seen people say it that since one of the pirahna is down it is now a wreck and is not part of the pirahna squadron anymore.  Since it is not part of the squadron the drones on the other pirahna do not have to disembark because they are not part of the same unit.

I don't have the rulebook in front of me but does the rule of destruction of vehicle talk about passenger or model in the unit.  I hope it is not the last one because it can cause another problem if one pirahna is destroyed and we have to wound 10 drones


I don't buy into this argument, I fear. Simple problem: a vehicle squadron counts casualties like any other unit, e.g., > 50% destroyed for 1/2 VPs. If the destroyed Pirahna is no longer part of the unit, it wouldn't count against the unit for casualty purposes.

You don't have to keep coherency with a destroyed vehicle.

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Made in au
Horrific Howling Banshee





Tau Empires, 'Drones', Page 31
"Drones must maintain coherency with the unit there controller is in. If he is an independent character then the drones and character may form a unit but the character and drones may still join another unit. If the character with the drone controller is killed then all of his drones are removed at the end of the Shooting or Assault phase in which he died"

BGB, Page 50
"There are two types of character; upgrade characters.... (and) Independant Characters.

A Sniper Drone Spotter is neither, as he is not an upgrade character or an IC. Therefore if you kill the spotter, and since he is not a character the drones are not killed.

That said, ICs that have drones, just model the character to be female, then you can get around that rule as well

----------------------------
Tau Empires, 'Gun Drone', Page 31
"Unit Type: As owner or Jump Infantry (jet pack) if independant

All Gun Drones on a vehicle or in a Piranha squadron must disembark at the same time, counting as a single unit."

So if any Gune Drones in a Piranha Squadron must disembark for any reason (penetrating hit, blown up, etc) then all drones in the Piranha squadron must disembark and form a single Drone unit (so from 1 to 10 Gun drones could form a unit.

As for scoring unit purposes however, the rulebook answers this as well...

Tau Empires, Vehicle Upgrades - 'Gun Drones', Page 30
"During any Tau Movement phase, the drones may disengage in the same way as infantry dismount from a transport and form a independant unit. From then on, the drones function as a Drone Squadron. The Drones may not rejoin the vehicle during the game and will never count as a scoring unit."

However it doesnt explain how many VPs they are worth (going as since the rules dont specify, Ill go on 0VPs)

Intresting to note that since the piranhas are open topped the drones will be able to assault enemy units... if they wanted to that is

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
C2: A destroyed piranha no longer counts as part of the piranha squadron, its drones are not subject to the rule on page 31 TE, they form a unit and no other drones must disembark.


BGB, 'Damage to Passangers', Page 68
"Passengers carried aboard a vehicle that is destroyed or suffers a Penetrating hit (no matter the result) will try to get out of the steel coffin as fast as possible.The passangers must make an immediate disembarkation move."

Now, as the passangers have to make a disembarktion move, according to Page 62 these moves have to be from the vehicles access points. This means that the vehicles is not destroyed yet and as such is still part of the unit and so forces the rest of the drones in the other Piranhas to disembark as they are still part of the unit.

   
Made in ca
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I read the rules and they have wrote passenger pretty much everyhwere except in the entangled rule. So at least if one vehicle is touch it is not all the drone unit that will have to receive wounds

the way they wrote the rules it looks like they must make in immediate disembark move and/or make a pinning check when the vehicle is penetrate or destroyed

Now if the 2 drones are killed Does the pinning test also apply to the other drones that just disembark from untouched vehicles. It looks like it may apply because of the and/or of the rules. They must take casualties and make the pinning test/entangled. The "or"  in the rules is there in case they are entangled then it is only casualties and they don't have a pinning test.  The pinning rules only talk about the unit and cannot help.

This means that if the complete unit disembark we have the scenario where one vehicle die, all the drones disembark with some possibly out of coherency , the 2 drones die, the unafffected drones must take a pinning test or be entangled, they spent one round doing nothing because they are entangled , they spent another round coming back in coherency, they can now act the next round

If the pirahna are 4 inches away somebody may assault the drone unit where some drones are 30 inches away from the drones assaulted.
   
Made in au
Drone without a Controller




Perth, Australia

Hey Aeon

you make some interesting points. BUT....

Posted By Aeon on 03/07/2006 8:53 PM

BGB, Page 50
"There are two types of character; upgrade characters.... (and) Independant Characters.

A Sniper Drone Spotter is neither, as he is not an upgrade character or an IC. Therefore if you kill the spotter, and since he is not a character the drones are not killed.

The Spotter IS a character. He has his own entry in the stats table at the back of the codex and these stats are identical to a firewarrior squad leader (shas sui).
What is unfortunate is that GW neglected to put a rank on the entry for the drone spotter. This would have left no room for mis-interpretation.
It would be the same as saying that a sgt from a marine squad was not a character.... (I am not a marine player) But I believe he is allowed upgrades from marine wargear list. He is therefore considered a character for that reason. (marine players, correct me if I am wrong?)
The only difference is, that in the case of the spotter, his wargear is compulsory.
So, I believe that my interpretation is correct. If the spotter is killed, the drones count as destroyed and are removed from play.
The only drones that function without direct Tau control are gun drones and the codex also states this fact. Sniper drones have their own entry and are not counted as gun drones, nor can they be taken in a squadron....(Sorry dont have codex to hand but will give page number if you require - think it is page 31 under drones?)

----------------------------
Tau Empires, 'Gun Drone', Page 31
"Unit Type: As owner or Jump Infantry (jet pack) if independant

All Gun Drones on a vehicle or in a Piranha squadron must disembark at the same time, counting as a single unit."

Tau Empires, Vehicle Upgrades - 'Gun Drones', Page 30
"During any Tau Movement phase, the drones may disengage in the same way as infantry dismount from a transport and form a independant unit. From then on, the drones function as a Drone Squadron. The Drones may not rejoin the vehicle during the game and will never count as a scoring unit."

However it doesnt explain how many VPs they are worth (going as since the rules dont specify, Ill go on 0VPs)

Intresting to note that since the piranhas are open topped the drones will be able to assault enemy units... if they wanted to that is

Here, I am inclined to concur with your interpretation.....
It is not ideal, but I believe it is a close as we are going to get.

However, while talking with a fellow games player today, we came across another possible problem. Do you have to test for casulties on all gun drones detaching OR just the ones detaching from the piranha that went boom??

Logically, you would think that only the drones on the downed Piranha would test?? But logic does not always come into it...

I like your observation about "open topped". Potentially, 10 gun drones disembarking, firing twin linked assault weapons and then assaulting with initiative 4.... I can think of a lot of armies not liking that !! At the same time, this is also an oddity. We have gundrones able to assualt immediately after disemabarking from 1 type of vehicle in the tau armoury and NO others? Even though they detach from every vehicle in exactly the same way? interesting?





"Tau - the close combat army"
 
   
Made in au
Drone without a Controller




Perth, Australia

"At the same time, this is also an oddity. We have gundrones able to assualt immediately after disemabarking from 1 type of vehicle in the tau armoury and NO others? Even though they detach from every vehicle in exactly the same way? interesting?"

Just realised that my last statement is not entirely true.....
On any other vehicle, the drones actually detach and have to be placed within 2" of an exit hatch...I always found this a little odd. Probably should detach and remain within 2" of the receptacle. But this is not within the rules of disembarkation.
Now we have drones detaching and deploying ANYWHERE within 2" of the wrecked vehicle - it is open topped.
Much more flexible for assualting, yes?

"Tau - the close combat army"
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





To add to the problem:

There is a model with a drone controller and a target lock. Does the drones fire to the same target as their controller or the target of the unit.

The target lock rules only say that the target lock enable a model to target a separate ennemy unit to that engaged by the rest of its own unit.

the drone controller say that that it act as a hub between the operator and a number of drones.

the drone rules say that they require regular order from a tau.

So the drones rules may make you think that they must follow their controller order when they shoot but they are not clear enough to support it. Since it is not clear I think they must follow the general rules that they target the same thing as the unit but not what their controller want them to target.

the sniper drones are different because they have themselves a target lock.


The rules for morale are still written in the same old way.  So there will still be a lot of question about if they count for 50% of the unit for the -1  morale penalty, if a unit may regroup when enough drones are killed to lower the number of model under 50% of the unit or if a man-alone must be rolled when a one suit unit  with drones are killed and only the controller remain


   
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Now we have drones detaching and deploying ANYWHERE within 2" of the wrecked vehicle - it is open topped.
Much more flexible for assualting, yes?


Unless you are crashing due to a failed terrain test this wouldn't be an issue as if you got shot down it would be in your opponent's turn and therefore they would not be able to assault.

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in au
Drone without a Controller




Perth, Australia

Posted By DaIronGob on 03/09/2006 9:28 AM
Now we have drones detaching and deploying ANYWHERE within 2" of the wrecked vehicle - it is open topped.
Much more flexible for assualting, yes?


Unless you are crashing due to a failed terrain test this wouldn't be an issue as if you got shot down it would be in your opponent's turn and therefore they would not be able to assault.


Yep, sorry - take out the word "wrecked" from that sentence and it makes sense again.....



"Tau - the close combat army"
 
   
Made in us
Drone without a Controller




Yet another question that falls into this topic.
If I have a squadron of multiple Piranah and one is stunned or shaken (not destroyed) I have the option of moving the rest of the squadron off amd allowing that vehicle to count as destroyed (p73).

Would the drones in that Piranah fall under the vehicle destroyed rules on p68?

Would I be required to dismount the drones from the entire squadron if any of the drones on the vehicle survive the crash (it seems that all drones in a squadron form one squad when dismounted)?

Could i just declare the drones lost and leave the vehicle and drones as a smoking wreckage on the battlefield?

I would love to hear others opinions on this.

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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

My opinion is that it's another GW rules editing muck-up.

Without reading the RAW I will not give an opinion on exactly what should happen in your situation.

From a fluff viewpoint, when an immobilised vehicle is left behind, the crew and passangers presumably get out as best they can and try to walk home or dig in to wait for pickup. Drones would do the same as the live crew, as they must have artificial instincts of self-preservation. OTOH they are the slaves of the Tau and can be ordered to self-destruct if it is convenient, as easily as a crewman can decide to throw away a machine gun if it's too heavy to carry. However there are no game rules for this.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in au
Drone without a Controller




Perth, Australia

Posted By thelosttau on 03/09/2006 11:34 PM
Yet another question that falls into this topic.
If I have a squadron of multiple Piranah and one is stunned or shaken (not destroyed) I have the option of moving the rest of the squadron off amd allowing that vehicle to count as destroyed (p73).

Would the drones in that Piranah fall under the vehicle destroyed rules on p68?

Would I be required to dismount the drones from the entire squadron if any of the drones on the vehicle survive the crash (it seems that all drones in a squadron form one squad when dismounted)?

Could i just declare the drones lost and leave the vehicle and drones as a smoking wreckage on the battlefield?

I would love to hear others opinions on this.



The drones on the downed piranha are treated as passengers. They would make an emergency disemabarkation move. As we have observed in the new codex, ALL drones in the squadron would disembark and become an independent unit (though not a scoring one).

 So, in answer to your question....
No, you could not claim them as part of the downed piranha and just fly away.....

It will be very interesting to play a few games with the piranhas when the plastics become available.....the more I think about it, the more I dont think it is going to be a big issue. The drones once detached still move 12" a turn, so they still have the potential to keep up with the piranha squadron. They could also be used to draw fire and add another distraction to the opposing player.....Are they going to stay with the squadron or are they going elsewhere?

Could actually work in the Tau's favour....just a shame that the codex does not lay it out better....



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GavDorro
The drones once detached still move 12" a turn, so they still have the potential to keep up with the piranha squadron.

Do Drones become entangled? If the do they won't be "keeping up" with the Piranhas, they will be "lagging 12 inches behind".
Or more, are Tau skimmers fast? I would think so.

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Made in au
Drone without a Controller




Perth, Australia

Posted By Odd the Quiet on 03/12/2006 11:11 AM

Do Drones become entangled? If the do they won't be "keeping up" with the Piranhas, they will be "lagging 12 inches behind".
Or more, are Tau skimmers fast? I would think so.


Of Course this all depends on if they detach on their own accord or are forced to detach.....The gun drones could detach during the owners movement phase with no penalty. So, yes this would mean the drones have the potential of keeping up with the piranha squadron...the unit IS fast attack.



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I saw someone mention that the shield drones now use the unit's toughness and save in the new codex. Can anyone expand on this. Does this only apply to shield drones? Do they not have an invulnerable save anymore? Do the gun drones still work with their normal toughness, ie if they outnumber the crisis suits you use the gun drones toughness for shooting? Just a few issues I have that I am wondering how they are resolved in the new dex.
   
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Does this only apply to shield drones? Yes

Do they still have an invulnerable save? Yes

Do gun drones still work with their normal toughness? Yes

It appears they want you to take gun drones if you want extra firepower, and shield drones if you want protection.

   
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<div class="NTForums_Quote">Posted By nobody on 03/22/2006 12:59 PM<br>Does this only apply to shield drones? Yes

Do they still have an invulnerable save? Yes

Do gun drones still work with their normal toughness? Yes

It appears they want you to take gun drones if you want extra firepower, and shield drones if you want protection.

</div><br><br>

Perfect. I am glad that was fixed, the 4th rules really irritated me with the shield drones
   
 
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