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So here's a shot at a 2000 point list for a tournament in october. Yes, I know it's a long time coming, but since I have almost none of these units, it'll give me time to purchase and paint them before the tournament.

Anyway, here's the list.

HQ
Reclusiarch; JP

ELITES
Sanguinary Priest; JP, PW (In Assault Squad 1)
Sanguinary Priest; JP, PW (In Assault Squad 2)
Sanguinary Priest, PW (In Assault Terminator Squad)

Assault Terminators; 4 TH/SS, Sarge with claws. With Land Raider Crusader; MultiMelta

Furioso Dreadnought; Blood Talons, Magna Grapple, HF, Drop Pod

TROOPS
Assault Squad 1; PF, 2x MG
Assault Squad 2; PF, 2x MG
Assault Squad 3; PF, 2x MG

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator
Predator
Predator

This comes out at 1980 points, so if anyone has a suggestion as to what I can pick up for the last 20, it'd be appreciated.

Just for clarification: I ran out of Elite spaces in the FoC, so the plan is to either bubblewrap Assault Squad 3 between the other two, or just run it next to one of the others the whole game. Preds are there as mobile cover for the Assault Squads and the Land Raider, and since they're fast, they can shoot while still being fast enough to keep ahead of the assault squads (If they live long enough.) The Furioso is intended to shake things up in the opponent's rear lines, and it'll be another thing for him to worry about for a round (or two if it survives that long).

PS:
I know that I don't have a librarian, so if you're about to yell at me because of that, then please don't. Until there's watertight evidence that the Emperor (Himself, not the Sigillite, not Dorn. The Emperor) rescinded the edict of Nikea, I won't have heretics in my Imperial armies. If that makes my lists less competitive, so be it. I'll manage.

do the preditors have heavy bolters? if not FIND A WAY TO GIVE THEM HEAVY BOLTERS!!

If you want so many jump packs why not go DoA

wpago wrote:If you want so many jump packs why not go DoA

reason bengs is that it deep strikes witch either works wonders or wokrs horrifilcy that everything dies

jbsnv wrote:do the preditors have heavy bolters? if not FIND A WAY TO GIVE THEM HEAVY BOLTERS!!

I could try to do that. I have 20p free already, but heavy bolters on all of them would be 90, all told. Is it really worth it?

wpago wrote:If you want so many jump packs why not go DoA

There are several reasons why I don't like deep striking as an overall strategy. I have tried it before, and it's always backfired. If I could have switched the 1d6 scatter for the ability to charge on the round they got on the board, I'd happily use the DoA tactic. As it is, I prefer the reliability of having them on the board from the start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jbsnv wrote:

wpago wrote:If you want so many jump packs why not go DoA

reason bengs is that it deep strikes witch either works wonders or wokrs horrifilcy that everything dies

That is the main reason I don't like it, yes. Thanks for bringing that up when I didn't.

Predator sponsons would be really nice. I'd definitely pick up extra armor the Land Raider first.

Hey reps0l, thanks for joining the conversation.

Here's a revised list, with considerations to what you guys recommended.

HQ
Reclusiarch; JP

ELITES
Sanguinary Priest; PW, JP (With Assault Squad 1)
Sanguinary Priest; PW,JP (With Assault Squad 2)
Sanguinary Priest; PW (With Terminator Assault Squad)

Terminator Assault Squad; 1x Lightning Claws, 4x TH/SS.
    Land Raider; MMelta, Extra Armor

Furioso Dreadnought; Blood Talons, Magna Grapple, Heavy Flamer
    Drop Pod

TROOPS
Assault Squad (1); PF, 2x Meltagun

Assault Squad (2); PF, 2x Meltagun

Assault Squad (3); PF, 1x Meltagun
   Rhino (for sitting on objectives)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator; Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Predator; Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Predator; Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Looking good. If want an objective squatter, scouts with camo cloaks are a cheaper way to get it. And if want to round out Assault Squad (3), you can drop one priest and the power weapons. Just some considerations but you should good either way.

Am I being crazy here, but you can dissolve Assault Squad 3 and get two squads of scouts for holding objectives, or maybe get a pinning shot. I don't know if scouts are competitive though.

scouts are competiive when they are in cover. and if you could get two for the one assault squad i would.

Personally i would change the furioso mag grapple to extra armour, str 6 talons arent the best against armour and i tend to use grapple only on furioso's with blood fist, also with the extra armour, if you take a hit on damage roll 1 or 2 you are still effective to kill if you get that drop pod in nice and close, drop pod, drop smoke or use ranged weaponry, (maybe take a few hits and hopefully the smoke and extra armour will help stop this), assault some poor infantry unit and ruin someones day.
also the priests with the pw's i would drop the pw's and use the points beef up the one with the termi squad to also run in termi armour, i really only take priests for their FnP and FC.

Regardless, 1 priest per 2 (full) Assault squads is adequate.

jbsnv wrote:do the preditors have heavy bolters? if not FIND A WAY TO GIVE THEM HEAVY BOLTERS!!

Heavy bolters are a complete waste unless you are fighting horde armies like Orks or Tyranids. They are expensive and the points are better placed in other units. I always run my preds lean and mean as the bolters only make up their points if you face masses without armor saves.

Unless you are running death company, the Reclusiarch is not a great HQ choice. Go with Mephiston for the best punch or go with a Librarian.

A Librarian is better than a Reclusiarch thanks to unleash rage, the power can be cast in either player's assault phase, unlike the Reclusiarch's power which only works when charging.

Priests do not need power weapons, you never want them in base contact as this is their weakness and you don't want them picked on in close combat.

A single Land Raider is a massive target and a easy one in at a points level this high. You should consider a pair for target saturation and redundancy.

Another unit with redundnacy problems is the Furioso. It's the only unit in a Drop Pod and will come down first turn and be unsupported. You really should drop this unit as it's a weak point in the list.

Hope that helps.

Ministry wrote:

jbsnv wrote:do the preditors have heavy bolters? if not FIND A WAY TO GIVE THEM HEAVY BOLTERS!!

Heavy bolters are a complete waste unless you are fighting horde armies like Orks or Tyranids. They are expensive and the points are better placed in other units. I always run my preds lean and mean as the bolters only make up their points if you face masses without armor saves.

Unless you are running death company, the Reclusiarch is not a great HQ choice. Go with Mephiston for the best punch or go with a Librarian.

Wrong anything that puts out 6 shots at s5 is worth it. More wound equals More deaths. There will be times where the dice go against you but s happens.

mercer wrote:

Another unit with redundnacy problems is the Furioso. It's the only unit in a Drop Pod and will come down first turn and be unsupported. You really should drop this unit as it's a weak point in the list.

If the drop pod has a locator beacon then the LR can deep strike without scattering. I use this with a Furioso to take fire and land the raider next to the drop pod.

That's a fair point, though you're missing my point that the Furioso is unsupported. Also the Land Raider could come down any turn and a smart opponent would destroy the Drop Pod so you would scatter, which is the best thing to do as a Land Raider has a massive foot print. Plus, holding a Land Raider in reserve and derp striking it has no significant benefit. Your big expensive unit is off the board for longer and doing the opponent a favour, plus when the tank drops in the unit inside cannot assault anyway.


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captain collius wrote:

Ministry wrote:

jbsnv wrote:do the preditors have heavy bolters? if not FIND A WAY TO GIVE THEM HEAVY BOLTERS!!

Heavy bolters are a complete waste unless you are fighting horde armies like Orks or Tyranids. They are expensive and the points are better placed in other units. I always run my preds lean and mean as the bolters only make up their points if you face masses without armor saves.

Unless you are running death company, the Reclusiarch is not a great HQ choice. Go with Mephiston for the best punch or go with a Librarian.

Wrong anything that puts out 6 shots at s5 is worth it. More wound equals More deaths. There will be times where the dice go against you but s happens.

He's actually right, heavy bolters will only hit 4 shots, wound wound 3 times and kill 3 Orks if they are not in cover or one if in cover or kill a single Space Marine. Hardly more deaths...:(

taopaipai18 wrote:Personally i would change the furioso mag grapple to extra armour, str 6 talons arent the best against armour and i tend to use grapple only on furioso's with blood fist, also with the extra armour, if you take a hit on damage roll 1 or 2 you are still effective to kill if you get that drop pod in nice and close, drop pod, drop smoke or use ranged weaponry, (maybe take a few hits and hopefully the smoke and extra armour will help stop this), assault some poor infantry unit and ruin someones day.
also the priests with the pw's i would drop the pw's and use the points beef up the one with the termi squad to also run in termi armour, i really only take priests for their FnP and FC.

I picked the Magna Grapple for the str 8 shot, not so much for pulling vehicles. I agree that it should have extra armor, and I suppose if I make some of the other changes suggested further down, I could afford both it and magna grapple.

It's my understanding that ICs MUST move into base contact with enemies when charging or getting charged, and with that in mind, I saw it as beneficent to get an additional few power weapon attacks to make it less likely that the priest is attacked back. And the WS5 S5 I5 on the charge isn't bad either.

reps0l wrote:Regardless, 1 priest per 2 (full) Assault squads is adequate.

In that case, both assault squads must move within 6", which I see as a major draw back. Plus, the priest is waaay too easily killed to only bring one.

Ministry wrote:

jbsnv wrote:do the preditors have heavy bolters? if not FIND A WAY TO GIVE THEM HEAVY BOLTERS!!

Heavy bolters are a complete waste unless you are fighting horde armies like Orks or Tyranids. They are expensive and the points are better placed in other units. I always run my preds lean and mean as the bolters only make up their points if you face masses without armor saves.

Unless you are running death company, the Reclusiarch is not a great HQ choice. Go with Mephiston for the best punch or go with a Librarian.

Like I said in my first post, Librarians (HEEEREEETIIIIICS!!!) won't see active duty in my armies until there's written evidence that the Emperor himself rescinded the edict of Nikea.

mercer wrote:(1)A Librarian is better than a Reclusiarch thanks to unleash rage, the power can be cast in either player's assault phase, unlike the Reclusiarch's power which only works when charging.

(2)Priests do not need power weapons, you never want them in base contact as this is their weakness and you don't want them picked on in close combat.

(3)A single Land Raider is a massive target and a easy one in at a points level this high. You should consider a pair for target saturation and redundancy.

(4)Another unit with redundnacy problems is the Furioso. It's the only unit in a Drop Pod and will come down first turn and be unsupported. You really should drop this unit as it's a weak point in the list.

Hope that helps.

Numbering added
(1)See above reply.
(2)See above reply.
(3/4)I see your point. I was told the same by my friend Glazgul. I dunno, though. I thought either the furioso would be a distraction from the LR or the other way around. Of course, the opponent could get a lucky shot and take out it's primary concern with one shot, and then focusing the rest of his shots on the secondary, but planning for luck has always seemed rather pointless to me. Two LR/terminator squads are extremely expensive, and would suffer the same problem as the LR/furioso combo. Once one is gone, the other will be the primary target. The opponent could just as well be lucky with it's first shot against the LR as with the furioso. Anyway, neither the LR or Furioso would be unsupported, as such. Once the furioso is on the board, the LR will be all up in yo grill, and once the LR is all up in yo grill, the furioso will be on the table. Plus, you'll have three preds blasting light transports or unsupported scoring units, AND two-and-a-half/three assault squads ready to pounce within the next round. I'm not saying I won't consider what you said, though. I already were. I'm just letting you know my rationale for taking the units that I did.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ
Reclusiarch; JP, Melta Bomb
  Honor Guard; JP, 2x PW, 2x Meltagun, 2x Melta Bomb

ELITE
Sanguinary Priest
Sanguinary Priest
Sanguinary Priest; JP

Terminator Assault Squad; 1 Lightning Claws, 4 TH/SS
  Land Raider Crusader; Extra Armor, MMelta

Terminator Assault Squad; 1 Lightning Claws, 4 TH/SS
  Land Raider Crusader; Extra Armor, MMelta

TROOPS
Assault Squad; PF, 2x Meltagun
Assault Squad; PF, 2x Meltagun

How about this? I do like the honor guard since it comes with a sanguinary "priest", and JPs are only 10 per model. I've ran them before and was pleasantly surprised at how they worked then. It's just how they're kitted out I'm not certain about.

SgtSixkilla wrote:I picked the Magna Grapple for the str 8 shot, not so much for pulling vehicles. I agree that it should have extra armor, and I suppose if I make some of the other changes suggested further down, I could afford both it and magna grapple.

I don't agree. S6 (7 on the charge if you're lucky and/or have a priest close) is actually pretty decent considering it hits rear armor on vehicles.

It's my understanding that ICs MUST move into base contact with enemies when charging or getting charged, and with that in mind, I saw it as beneficent to get an additional few power weapon attacks to make it less likely that the priest is attacked back. And the WS5 S5 I5 on the charge isn't bad either.

This is only if the priest is actually attached to the squad at the time of the assault. I personally never attach them to begin with, thus avoiding this issue entirely - but my approach differs to most here. Do whatever works for you, but keep them naked and as cheap as possible.

SgtSixkilla wrote:

reps0l wrote:Regardless, 1 priest per 2 (full) Assault squads is adequate.

In that case, both assault squads must move within 6", which I see as a major draw back. Plus, the priest is waaay too easily killed to only bring one.

12" actually. The 6" bubble isn't centered on the priest, it's a radius around the priest. So probably closer to 13" considering it's measured from the edge of the base. And yes, 1 priest per 2 assault squads is plenty - also, you can take 1-3 priests as a single elites choice. They all have the IC rule, so they don't have to remain in the same squad. That should free up two of your elites slots.

Ministry wrote:

jbsnv wrote:do the preditors have heavy bolters? if not FIND A WAY TO GIVE THEM HEAVY BOLTERS!!

Heavy bolters are a complete waste unless you are fighting horde armies like Orks or Tyranids. They are expensive and the points are better placed in other units. I always run my preds lean and mean as the bolters only make up their points if you face masses without armor saves.

This is soooo true. Heavy Bolters are crap weapons. They used to be decent, before 4+ became the default cover save, but between that and all the metal bawkses you face in the 5ed meta, that neuters their usefulness quite a bit. Save the points and/or grab some lascannon sponsons.

Unless you are running death company, the Reclusiarch is not a great HQ choice. Go with Mephiston for the best punch or go with a Librarian.
Like I said in my first post, Librarians (HEEEREEETIIIIICS!!!) won't see active duty in my armies until there's written evidence that the Emperor himself rescinded the edict of Nikea.

Librarians aren't heretics!

mercer wrote:(1)A Librarian is better than a Reclusiarch thanks to unleash rage, the power can be cast in either player's assault phase, unlike the Reclusiarch's power which only works when charging.

(2)Priests do not need power weapons, you never want them in base contact as this is their weakness and you don't want them picked on in close combat.

(3)A single Land Raider is a massive target and a easy one in at a points level this high. You should consider a pair for target saturation and redundancy.

(4)Another unit with redundnacy problems is the Furioso. It's the only unit in a Drop Pod and will come down first turn and be unsupported. You really should drop this unit as it's a weak point in the list.

Hope that helps.

I agree with points 1 and 2. Furioso can come down behind LoS blocking terrain and survive - it's all a matter of pregaming. Terrain placement and proper deployment will win you more games than not, especially in cases like this.

I don't agree with 3 either - single land raiders are just fine. Most of the "successful tournament lists" I've seen have run a terminator assault squad in a land raider and done quite well with them - and only having one LR.

SgtSixkilla wrote:
Numbering added
(1)See above reply.
(2)See above reply.
(3/4)I see your point. I was told the same by my friend Glazgul. I dunno, though. I thought either the furioso would be a distraction from the LR or the other way around. Of course, the opponent could get a lucky shot and take out it's primary concern with one shot, and then focusing the rest of his shots on the secondary, but planning for luck has always seemed rather pointless to me. Two LR/terminator squads are extremely expensive, and would suffer the same problem as the LR/furioso combo. Once one is gone, the other will be the primary target. The opponent could just as well be lucky with it's first shot against the LR as with the furioso. Anyway, neither the LR or Furioso would be unsupported, as such. Once the furioso is on the board, the LR will be all up in yo grill, and once the LR is all up in yo grill, the furioso will be on the table. Plus, you'll have three preds blasting light transports or unsupported scoring units, AND two-and-a-half/three assault squads ready to pounce within the next round. I'm not saying I won't consider what you said, though. I already were. I'm just letting you know my rationale for taking the units that I did.

Doesn't matter about the Priest having a power weapon, he's still going to get attacks allocated to him and will probably die. Best keep the Priest cheap. Plus, you can easily keep the Priest out of assault range with some clever positioning. Just place the Priest at the back of your unit and space out the models 2". The assault distance between a Priest and enemy unit will be 9", that's presuming full Assault Squad, Priest cannot pile in as cannot move 9" for pile in move .

The Furioso certainly would be a distraction, there's no doubt about that, but that's a expensive distraction. Plus, only need half the damage table to stop it. A single shot could own it and then it's onto the Land Raider.

The point with the dual Land Raiders is that you have two, for target saturation. It's pretty tough to take down av14, but now there's two of them coming at you. Where's a single Furioso and Land Raider the opponent can pick and chose his targets more easier.

Chesh wrote:

I agree with points 1 and 2. Furioso can come down behind LoS blocking terrain and survive - it's all a matter of pregaming. Terrain placement and proper deployment will win you more games than not, especially in cases like this.

I don't agree with 3 either - single land raiders are just fine. Most of the "successful tournament lists" I've seen have run a terminator assault squad in a land raider and done quite well with them - and only having one LR.

It depends on how much you terrain you use, also you forgot one thing; opponent's mobility, the opponent can still move and get past the LOS blocking issue.

Most tournament lists I see have two Land Raiders . With a single one you just have a big bullseye and everything will be going at it to stop it.

It seems that the issues with my list are so open to opinion that I just have to experience the differences for myself. Thanks for all the informative input, guys. It's really appreciated.

Chesh wrote:
Librarians aren't heretics!

Yes they are. At least according to the Horus Heresy novels. Until the time when a future Horus Heresy novel specifically states that the Emperor has personally rescinded the edict of Nikea, I will consider all psykers heretics by order of the Emperor. The Emperor is the master of mankind, so unless he goes back on his own word, the edict of Nikea still stands. It doesn't matter if the Sigillite or one of the lords of terra says it's okay to use psyker powers. They aren't the Emperor. Anyway. That's a discussion for another thread.

SgtSixkilla wrote:It seems that the issues with my list are so open to opinion that I just have to experience the differences for myself. Thanks for all the informative input, guys. It's really appreciated.

True for any army list! Good luck and have fun with yours.

Thanks. I will. I'll test it against my GK player friend in as many iterations as I can before October.