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Yet again, I beseech thee for thy guidance.

I'm planning my modeling budget for next summer, and planing on stepping up the 1000 point list of Space Marines I'm building THIS summer by either 500 or 1000 points, depending on what other expenses college may bring. So, my question? Forge World LRs. Mainly, I'm looking at the Helios and the Achillies, since my current list is severely lacking in heavy support, I believe. It looks a little something like this.

HQ:
Pedro Kantor

Elites:
9 Sternguard Vets, 4 with combi-weapons, with Pedro, riding in a Rhino.

Dreadnaught with TL-LC and ML.

Troops:

10 Tactical Marines, ML, Flamer, Sarge with PF, Rhino

10 Tactical Marines, ML, Flamer, Sarge with PF, Rhino.

As you can see, the Dread is the closest thing to a support unit that the list has, so I was told to stock up on HS choices the next time I bought models. So, I ask you fine gentlemen. Which would fit better? And are either worth it?

Your better off with standard support vehicles, particularly the ones I recommended in your last thread.

A Land Raider really doesn't add much to your list, particularly either of the FW variants. That and most people have aneurysms when they see a FW unit across the table.

Blacksails wrote:Your better off with standard support vehicles, particularly the ones I recommended in your last thread.

A Land Raider really doesn't add much to your list, particularly either of the FW variants. That and most people have aneurysms when they see a FW unit across the table.

Noted with thanks. I was simply asking because a lot of people suggested TFCs, and I was largely looking at that LRA and wondering if it added anything besides making that TFC more mobile. And, with the Helios, I noticed that Whirlwinds never came up, period. So I guess I should ask about that too?

On an off note, why the FW hate?

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Your better off with standard support vehicles, particularly the ones I recommended in your last thread.

A Land Raider really doesn't add much to your list, particularly either of the FW variants. That and most people have aneurysms when they see a FW unit across the table.

Noted with thanks. I was simply asking because a lot of people suggested TFCs, and I was largely looking at that LRA and wondering if it added anything besides making that TFC more mobile. And, with the Helios, I noticed that Whirlwinds never came up, period. So I guess I should ask about that too?

On an off note, why the FW hate?

Its a knee jerk reaction by many who seem to believe that everything FW is horribly broken and OP. The reality is quite the opposite, almost laughably so. Frankly, most current codices (SW, GK) have more broken units than the overwhelming majority of FW units.

It also stems from the fact that many of their models are larger and their skimmers are also fliers in apoc games. Some people looked at the dreadclaw drop pod (drop pod you can assault out of) and Caestus Assault Ram and suddenly decided everything FW was OP.

The Achilles is not that good of a tank, but its not bad either. The Helios is also underwhelming, having played against it. They're fun I guess, but if you're looking for fun and better choices, stick with preds and dreds.

Blacksails wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Blacksails wrote:Your better off with standard support vehicles, particularly the ones I recommended in your last thread.

A Land Raider really doesn't add much to your list, particularly either of the FW variants. That and most people have aneurysms when they see a FW unit across the table.

Noted with thanks. I was simply asking because a lot of people suggested TFCs, and I was largely looking at that LRA and wondering if it added anything besides making that TFC more mobile. And, with the Helios, I noticed that Whirlwinds never came up, period. So I guess I should ask about that too?

On an off note, why the FW hate?

Its a knee jerk reaction by many who seem to believe that everything FW is horribly broken and OP. The reality is quite the opposite, almost laughably so. Frankly, most current codices (SW, GK) have more broken units than the overwhelming majority of FW units.

It also stems from the fact that many of their models are larger and their skimmers are also fliers in apoc games. Some people looked at the dreadclaw drop pod (drop pod you can assault out of) and Caestus Assault Ram and suddenly decided everything FW was OP.

The Achilles is not that good of a tank, but its not bad either. The Helios is also underwhelming, having played against it. They're fun I guess, but if you're looking for fun and better choices, stick with preds and dreds.

Noted. That does seem rather silly, but not surprising, considering the average intelligence of your standard GW-hobbies mook.

Also noted. They sound like something I may buy if I have extra money, but if that budget is tight, I'll probably just stick with the preds, dreds, and vindies that were suggested. And on the Whirlwind? What do you think about that?

TermiesInARaider wrote:

And on the Whirlwind? What do you think about that?

Problem is, for 85pts, I can get a dakka pred. While the Whirlwind's cover ignoring blast may seem alright, it just simply won't put out enough winds and is pigeon-holed to that role only. The Dakka pred will still hurt hordes as much as a whirlwind, but can also deal with transports and MCs.

Not to mention the AV13 vs. AV11.

Blacksails wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

And on the Whirlwind? What do you think about that?

Problem is, for 85pts, I can get a dakka pred. While the Whirlwind's cover ignoring blast may seem alright, it just simply won't put out enough winds and is pigeon-holed to that role only. The Dakka pred will still hurt hordes as much as a whirlwind, but can also deal with transports and MCs.

Not to mention the AV13 vs. AV11.

Hm... 85 points isn't much, though. I can include one, and still get plenty of dakka in there to compensate, especially if I'm jumping up by 1000 points instead of 500.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

And on the Whirlwind? What do you think about that?

Problem is, for 85pts, I can get a dakka pred. While the Whirlwind's cover ignoring blast may seem alright, it just simply won't put out enough winds and is pigeon-holed to that role only. The Dakka pred will still hurt hordes as much as a whirlwind, but can also deal with transports and MCs.

Not to mention the AV13 vs. AV11.

Hm... 85 points isn't much, though. I can include one, and still get plenty of dakka in there to compensate, especially if I'm jumping up by 1000 points instead of 500.

The point is, if you're going to spend 85pts on a heavy support unit, always pick the dakka pred over the whirlwind. C:SM heavy support slots are at a premium, and you don't want to fill one up with a whirlwind when you can a dakka pred instead.

Blacksails wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Blacksails wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

And on the Whirlwind? What do you think about that?

Problem is, for 85pts, I can get a dakka pred. While the Whirlwind's cover ignoring blast may seem alright, it just simply won't put out enough winds and is pigeon-holed to that role only. The Dakka pred will still hurt hordes as much as a whirlwind, but can also deal with transports and MCs.

Not to mention the AV13 vs. AV11.

Hm... 85 points isn't much, though. I can include one, and still get plenty of dakka in there to compensate, especially if I'm jumping up by 1000 points instead of 500.

The point is, if you're going to spend 85pts on a heavy support unit, always pick the dakka pred over the whirlwind. C:SM heavy support slots are at a premium, and you don't want to fill one up with a whirlwind when you can a dakka pred instead.

That's exactly my point. Why take the dakka pred when I can get dakka from other places, like a rifleman dred? Or bolterbacks? If my HS slots are at a premium, I wanna be spending them on things I can't get from my other choices. At least, in my opinion.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

That's exactly my point. Why take the dakka pred when I can get dakka from other places, like a rifleman dred? Or bolterbacks?

Sorry, yes, I misunderstand your earlier point. Personally, I'll be building my heavy support choices as 2x Vindis/1x Combi pred, or 2x Combi-pred/1x Dakka pred. Then I use my elites for dreads for riflemen patterns or ML-LC variants.

Blacksails wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

That's exactly my point. Why take the dakka pred when I can get dakka from other places, like a rifleman dred? Or bolterbacks?

Sorry, yes, I misunderstand your earlier point. Personally, I'll be building my heavy support choices as 2x Vindis/1x Combi pred, or 2x Combi-pred/1x Dakka pred. Then I use my elites for dreads for riflemen patterns or ML-LC variants.

Hm. Alright, alright, but, no offense, I'm going to wanna get another opinion. For 85 points, I don't see why I can't find room for long range templates that ignore cover in at least 500 points of new units.

Because honestly, the whirlwind is only useful against horde armies, and barely at that. Anything with 3+ armor giggle at the whirlwind

I play horde orks, if i see a whirlwind I just spread out the boyz, the max you are going to get in 4. Pro horde play use 2" like a boss.

The pred will almost always hit and useful against all