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Exactly what it says on the tin. We miss the days of more complicated multi dice games. We miss multiple location damage tables and combat you need advanced artithmetic to deduce., we miss small games and having a hand of psychic cards (bear with us kids) we miss strategy cards (except maybe virus outbreak) and we miss those kind of games where a character, a tank and a few squads can make a difference.

We miss 2nd edition 40k.

So myself and a few mates have grabbed copies of the first edition we ever played and will be mounting an ongoing project to update 2nd edition with current 40k armies and wargear whilst staying true to the game that got us into the hobby in the first place.

Naturally this is quite an undertaking so keep checking back and feel free to add suggestions and comments as we continue work on 40k 2.1 (yes that includes Squats!!)

Does that mean a return to sustained fire dice too? You can keep those, although I'd love to be able to throw grenades again!

yup sustained fire dice. hallucinogen grenades.... aahhh the memories.... we've had a few ideas around current wargear and there's at least three whole armies to sort out and balance so there's plenty of work to do! for starters i think it will be a case of playing a few games, getting a feel for the mechanics again (its been a good 10 years since i played 2nd) and working out what is going to work and what isnt..

Looking forward to it!

Hehehe, you're insane...but good for you! It's better than just complaining about how much you hate the current rules!

excellent idea,I have been toying with the idea myself with my small gaming group

I wish you luck. Feel free to check out my own project, in which I adapted most of the current 40k factions and much of their wargear to Necromunda rules. Could be a useful springboard. Feel free to use anything you like.

(link in sig)

DiabolicAl wrote:Exactly what it says on the tin. We miss the days of more complicated multi dice games. We miss multiple location damage tables and combat you need advanced artithmetic to deduce., we miss small games and having a hand of psychic cards (bear with us kids) we miss strategy cards (except maybe virus outbreak) and we miss those kind of games where a character, a tank and a few squads can make a difference.

We miss 2nd edition 40k.

So myself and a few mates have grabbed copies of the first edition we ever played and will be mounting an ongoing project to update 2nd edition with current 40k armies and wargear whilst staying true to the game that got us into the hobby in the first place.

Naturally this is quite an undertaking so keep checking back and feel free to add suggestions and comments as we continue work on 40k 2.1 (yes that includes Squats!!)

Hi Guys,

We decided to do a revivial as Allen says, because its what we grew up with. When we first saw 3rd edition we were shocked, the game was so radically different from what had come before we weren't sure whether we wanted to play it. It didn't take long to grow on us and with 6th edition on the horizon we are still playing.

We don't want to revive 2nd edition because we dislike 5th or believe we won't like 6th. We will still be playing the current editions at our local clubs. Just because a rule set has been superceded dosn't mean it has to die out. Sure, if it was bad to begin with then consign it to history but if it is being put aside just because something new has replaced it then there is no good reason why it has to stay dead and buried. The 2nd edition rules are unique enough from the current editions that they can stand on their own and it is one of the reasons we feel it deserves the amount of effort being put into it.

Let's be clear from the beginning, we are all a little guilty of viewing 2nd edition through rose tinted glasses. It had its flaws. On my scrutiny list are many things that may need proper revision and I am not ruling out taking cues from later editions in order to streamline larger games. Close combat especially was a very laboriuos process with large units. But nothing is set for an immediate change. We need to play games and get some feedback on what we like, don't like, what works and what dosn't. That means sticking to the existing lists to begin with and certainly no Forge World or Apocalype anytime in the near to medium future of the project. That being said I am looking forward to the time when we can start adding in the newer unit types, updated wargear and psychic powers.

I welcome any input that you would like to put forward.

PS to lord_blackfang I will definately take a look at what you have done.

Regards,

Lee.

This sounds like a lot of fun!

I never played 2nd, but the more RPG like aspect of it has always been a draw for me to try it.

I'd love to see this pan out! Good luck, gents!

2nd Edition was the first edition I played and probably my favourite!

The biggest downsides were (in my opinion) the vast amount of cards you needed - especially if you ended up losing the important ones (like the Space Marine bike!).

I take it you guys have access to the Battle Bible / Grey Codex as that helps out for 'proxying' some units (i.e. new style Storm Troopers = Adeptus Arbites + Bolters).

As an old 2nd ed player, I think save modifiers are a key area to focus on. With almost every weapon being at least -1 Sv, power armor was weak, and lesser armor was almost useless. Of course, if you adjust modifiers then you have to look at Terminators too, lest you make them even tougher.

I'll be watching this thread with interest.

Sounds like a project with potential, though there are pitfalls....

I own every 2nd edition codex and Dark Millenium and have great affinity for that game even though I only played it a few times.

A few months ago I made ran a nostalgia-fueled attempt at playing 2nd edition 40k. It was not a success.

Maybe I'll try again someday, but it's just too crunchy without adding to gameplay, and it has far to many detailed rules that are more suited to small warband gameplay than to the squad-based platoon level engagement that it attempts to accommodate.

I hope you've figured out something to make transports a bit more usable/survivable - they were rolling coffins in 2nd!

But I for one welcome the return of armor save modifiers and Terminators saving on 3+ on 2d6!

And a psychic phase that was a lot of fun!

I would do away with grenades other than as special wargear for characters. Working out the results of a unit of 10 orks throwing frag grenades about was so tedious we just used to avoid it anyway. I'm cool on datafaxes for vehicles other than Bikes. Every bike having a separate datafax is just unmanageable especially if you play Ravenwing.

A little while back I made a Baneblade Datafax for 2nd edition to match all the others. I think I used rules published in the CItadel Journal tweaked using some fan rules (in the Battlebook?) in order to get something more usable. Linked below...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/305018-2nd%20Edition%2C%20Baneblade%2C%20Datafax.html

Think I might still have sustained fire dice in a box somewhere.

Great idea! I'll be following this with much interest, and I also still have some sustained fire dice. They fall out of my dice jar every time I play, and my son always asks what they're for, of course I tell him, but he's probably a little young for 2nd ed yet.

Our group was working on 2nd edition v2.5 rules when 3rd edition came out. 3rd was so bad we quit playing, but 5th was a huge improvement and I'm hoping that 6th will be better (assuming most of the leaked rules are used).

These are our notes and include our planned changes and entries for stuff that needed changing but had not done any work on.
There are also points cost notes for some over and undercosted units. We also have the formula that GW used for figuring non-vehicle point costs and have a 4D database that includes this formula. Will need to dig for those files...

Tim DuPertuis
Publisher of Inquisitor magazine

Revised Second Edition 40K
Rules
Setup/ deploy
Setup: Roll D6, add general's SR. High number sets up first (in SR order if there are troops with differing SRs) and moves first. Person who moves second picks table side
Ork SR=6 for setup order.

Infiltrators set up first?

VP fix= point values/tournament rules
Strategy cards: Throw out for now. Redo as PURCHASABLE tactical options

Unit coherencey/close combat/charge

Declare charges/overwatch any time during movement phase on squad that has not moved

Movement
Charging closest model? Trooper/tank?
Throw out 'within 8"' run limitation

HIding-move, hide shoot, return overwatch
Overwatch: Can go on overwatch after moving (a similar action to hiding)?


Shooting
LOS
Woods : Use 3rd edition rules
Choosing a Target
Monsterous targets

Rapid move mod applies at 10" or faster
Sustained fire: roll number of shots first , then roll to hit
Jams
Any weapon that rolls one Susutained fire die only spends the remainder of the current turn clearing the jam and may fire normally next turn.

Shooting on overwatch (SUSTAINED FIRE aND BLAST WEAPONS)

HTH

Multiple combat: break up into one on one combats
Parry
1 Give up one attack per parry
2 Pay for parry ability-user skill, not weapon characterisitic (Point cost = WS?) Two parrys cost double the amount of a single parry (model must have two parry weapon s)

Followup: eliminate?

Morale checks are made at the END of the HTH phase

Breaking and Rallying

Must be capable of hiding in terrain to be able to rally

running away direction: towards nearest cover or table edge. broken figures leaving the tble can't come back

Psychology


Characters
All characters must remain with squads. If a character is not in unit coherency with a squad, he may not charge or shoot, but must move towards the nearest squad. May move freely from squad to squad.

Exceptions: Techmarine?
Monsterous creatures?
Greater demons
Avatar

Psionics
Only cast spells on your own turn?

Pick all powers fist Then exchange them. Must exchange from same set of powers.

Reflection can only reflect a shooting type attack.

draw a straight line.....

change nullify rolls
Roll off and add level-ties are rerolled

Vortex
Purge psyker
Iron Arm
All power 3 spells?

Vehicles

Needs to be some chance of surviving vehicle destruction. Use new rule unles result is "destroyed.

No you can not charge from a vehicle?

Shooting from transport vehicle-no heavy weapon troops can fire heavy weapons from a moving vehicle.

Balst markers on vehilces. Roll hit location, place template on hit location, roll to catch other logations. Other locations roll penetration without the D6.


HTH vs moving vehicles (including all skimmers)
Up to 10":3+
Up to 20" : 4+
over 20 " : 6

Pop up ability costs 20 points



Buildings =dificult ground? see tims 40K rulesbook

Weapons
Power Sword S5, -3 save?
Power Axe ( a power weapon will have the same strength whether used one handed or two handed!
1 hand S6, -4 save

Flamers flames go out on 5+

Assault cannon: Damage = D6
Old ass cn more points
Autocannon: D10 Point change (Add X points)

Mole mortar Roll to hit
D cannon vs vehicles

Jump Packs- no turn restrictions 5" max height for no move short
D-cannon

Vehicle squadrons smoe small advantage

vehicle ans support wepons squadrons-rules out





Army Lists
General
Force ratios
Characters 25% max , troops minimum 50%
Marine
Eldar
Ork
Guard
Reserve rule
Abilities Dead eye
Tactical squad 80 plus optional frags
Storm troopers 90 plus optional frags

Tyranids
Chaos

Space Wolves
troop types too low
One wolfguard pack
Terminator weapons choices


Wargear Cards


Vehicle cards
Limit to 2 per vehicle?
ONE PER 100 POINTS of basic point cost

Points costs
Low (Underpointed)
stealer
banshee
warp spider 50
Wraithguard
Hormagants 11-15
Vyper
Pulsa rokkit: points and Limits
Psychic Hood Librarians only? 40 points No Chaos! fixes tzeench psycher problem
shock attack guns
Vet space marines add points for infiltrate ability
Marine dread


High (Overcosted)
Ork dred
eldar dreds
Vyper
Lictor
HARLIE DEATH JESTER
Hive Tyrant
Ogryns
Greater demons
Chimera

?
Boars, Cyboars
Mega armor
Avatar 250?


Additions from 3rd edition
Missions

There is a lot of good stuff going up here, keep it coming.

Stage one is to read the rules, most of us have managed that.

Stage two is to play games with the un-molested rule set. Our first games will be simple.

750pts.
No vehicles including bikes and walkers.
Support weapons are permissable.
Psykers capped at level 2.
Wargear cards capped at 25pts.

timd wrote:Our group was working on 2nd edition v2.5 rules when 3rd edition came out. 3rd was so bad we quit playing, but 5th was a huge improvement and I'm hoping that 6th will be better (assuming most of the leaked rules are used).

These are our notes and include our planned changes and entries for stuff that needed changing but had not done any work on.
snip>

#

some great ideas there (particularly the work on vehicles) . not sure just how many changes we are looking to make yet. Just going to enjoy 2nd edition for what it is and try to shoehorn the newer stuff in. (I fancy 2nd edding the Dark Eldar) But for the meantime i ill be using my marine army. Time for the Emperors Blades first outing in 2nd Edition!!

*Dives into Ultramarine Codex*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok scratching my head here.. Force Weapons anyone? cant see them in the 2nd ed smurf codex. Damn being at work and not having access to everything!!....

If they're not in the codex, they'll probably be a Wargear Card. I think there's Force Sword, Force Axe and Force Rod. Rules something like you add your mastery level to the strength and save modifier of the weapon (so mastery level 2 = +2 S, -2 Sv) - but don't quote me on it. Force Rods can also store a Force Card I believe

Hi all.
It may be of interest /help to know there is a great rule stet that is similar to 2nd ed 40k,( but has had some issues adressed.)

Its called No Limits.http://wargamesunlimited.net/nolimits/index.html

Its rules are free to download, and they have stats for a wide range of minatures , from all sorts of manufactureres.It may be useful as reference material for you?

No Limits is an awesome rule set, but it is not really similar to any version of the 40K rules.

It was based off of VOR.

It plays very smoothly for anyone interested, and most of the 40K armies have been written up by someone.

~Eric

ah second edition, when tactical dreadnought armour actually worked !!

good luck to you !

Something I have noticed whilst putting an army together which also caused something of a flashback is the huge amount of specialist weapons you could fit in a regular squad.

My Space Wolves, being geared to 5th, are all armed with fairly mundane weapons. With enough points my Grey Hunters could all take plasma pistols and power weapons. It will be interesting to see how this unintended neutering of models will effect the game.

Oh god, the memories

I remember the joy of having an opponents assault cannon jam, and of a single group of guardsmen outrolling a hive tyrant in CC. Those were the rose-tinted days.

Please tell me you'll be keeping the old armor-penetration value for Chainfists (iirc, it was 1d20+1d10/12+1d6/8+3/4 or something along those lines. All i remember was it literally could chop through any vehicle in the game )

You're going to have to do something to tone down Overwatch though.

Something along the lines of how Infinity does it might work.

DeSade wrote:Something I have noticed whilst putting an army together which also caused something of a flashback is the huge amount of specialist weapons you could fit in a regular squad.

My Space Wolves, being geared to 5th, are all armed with fairly mundane weapons. With enough points my Grey Hunters could all take plasma pistols and power weapons. It will be interesting to see how this unintended neutering of models will effect the game.

Honestly, as long as you're tweaking things, you may want to audit all the codexes and get units' weapon options more in line with later editions. I have a few reasons for this:

1) Nobody's models are going to be equipped properly to represent some of the ridiculous options in 2nd edition, so it will rarely be used, and

2) The guys who do decide to proxy the crazy weapon loadouts, or even redo models to match them, will be roundly hated, because seriously, 20 regular ork boyz with power swords and bolt pistols? Don't bother rolling dice, just take your models off the table. When almost every army's close combat units have (cheap) options like that, you may as well not even wear power armor, which brings me to

3) Even most regular weapons or unarmed strikes in close combats will have a save modifier, which makes the comparatively boring loadouts of 5th edition way more effective against MEQs than we expect. The biggest thing I remember from 2nd edition was: overkill, overkill, overkill. Nobody left cover if they could avoid it, unless they were a special character toting multiple invulnerable saves, because even heavy bolters and autocannons could chew right threw tactical squads. Cutting back on the ridiculous array of weapons available would probably have gone a long way to making 2nd edition more interesting because your foot sloggers might actually accomplish something for once.

I think people look back fondly at all the crazy gak from 2nd edition, while somehow forgetting that it was for the most part a complicated, sprawling, terrible game. I played it for about 5 years in the 90's and while I initially hated 3rd edition, I eventually realized it was a far superior game in spite of its flaws.

I think the most fun I had by the end of 2nd edition was when my friend and I finally were fed up with the bloated, vehicle- and character- and uber-weapon heavy rules and started running squad-level battles with only the most basic weapon options. We would do things like face a squad of marines off against an imperial guard platoon, with no special close combat weapons beyond chainswords, no special weapons except flamers, and no heavy weapons except heavy bolters. What was once clunky and slow suddenly became fast and light and tactically interesting, and all the annoying minutia of firing arcs and determining modifiers per model and individual hand-to-hand combats suddenly made sense once you focused on a small number of models.

This is exactly why the 2nd edition rules still live on, in a way, in Necromunda and Gorkamorka. They are true skirmish-level rules, and they're fairly good ones. I think 2nd edition was a victim of feature-creep, so to speak, as every expansion and new codex and the continuous push for bigger armies caused the game to exceed the limitations of its core rules.

So, long story short, if you want to make 2nd edition fun and viable, I'd get used to small games, and stick with those boring 5th edition weapon loadouts

My friends and I have been playing 2nd edition for about a year now. The following items are changes we've made that we think has improved the battles.

Before I start I should clarify that 2nd seems to work best with an obscene amount of terrain.

Like Cities of death cluttered. This helps mitigate the extreme power of heavy weapons and relegates overwatch to covering key stretches of the table as opposed to having free reign to destroy anything you want.

1) Deployment:
The army with the higher strategy rating chooses their table edge and whether they wish to deploy a unit first or second.

Each player takes a turn placing a unit (support batteries are deployed together as one choice as are characters. Transports are placed simultaneously with their squad. Transports may not be purchased without a corresponding squad. (this is to prevent spamming of empty transports to abuse the closest target shooting rules)

Both players roll off to determine who gets first turn adding the strategy rating of their commander (the player who finishes deployment first gets an additional +1)

2) Vehicles:
Units may charge out of transports by declaring a charge at the beginning of the movement phase. The vehicle can only move 12" and may only use 2 45* turns or one 90* turn while en-route. The unit disembarks within 2" of an access point and may make a 6" assault move. This gives transport borne infantry a very similar threat radius to jump infantry.

All results on the vehicle damage charts that refer to instant death for passengers has been changed to the following. All passengers are wounded on a 4+ and receive their full armor save against the damage. Survivors are deployed withing 2" of the wreck and may not charge or shoot in their following turn (or phase if destroyed by overwatch) though they may move as normal.

Vehicles are not always automatically hit in close combat. The following to hit rolls are required based on the current speed.
stationary:auto
Slow: 4+
Combat: 5+
Fast: 6+

3)Infantry:
Jump infantry can always move at least 12" even when moving over 2 story+ buildings. Normally they lose 6" per story of building. This was felt to be too severe and made the transport assault alternative too superior.

4)Close Combat:
2nd uses a Panic system (Ie 25% losses equals a break test in close combat) Not a fan. The following has replaced it.

Each side totals the wounds caused. If one side outnumbers their opponents they receive +1. The loser takes a break test at -1 leadership per point they lost the fight by.

The following changes were made to account for the strength of varying unit types.
Bikes/Cavalry: 2 per model.
Dreadnoughts: 8
Monstrous creatures: 1 per starting wound.

If broken in hand to hand units flee for the nearest cover at a speed determined by their movement speed. 1-6=2D6 7+=3D6. Bikes and jump infantry count as 7+. The victorious unit with the highest unit strength may pursue using the same system.

5) Various broken problems
Assault cannon wounds caused reduced to D4 against non vehicle units

The Multi-Melta: This gun is beyond over the top. it is the best choice for destroying anything in the game regardless of target type. It has been changed as follows.

Same ranges
Strength 8
causes D6 wounds at long range 2D6 at short.
Against Vehicles rolls 2D6 +8 at long range 3D6+8 at short
Save modifier unchanged.
Template reduced to 1 1/2" template

Vortex grenade removed
Anything with Virus in the title removed.

6) Common sense

This one works for us but you might want to take the time to actually remove and replace all the potential abuses in the codexes.

Don't take an army of all Wolf Guard with Cyclones/Assault cannons
Don't spam Photon flash grenades against Orks/Tyranids/Guard
Various unscrupulous wargear load-outs.
Etc.

2nd Edition is a very free wheeling and open game system. This is great in that you can have a lot of freedom to come up with diverse forces. This however can be badly abused. Our group is really good about setting the expectations of what we want in any given match. Sometimes it's fun to see if you can take on the all wolf guard cheese army (Note Ravenwing land speeders are quite good against it lol)

Years ago I had a cushy job in academia which afforded me huge blocks of time to write. I actually wrote a 2nd edition revision that kept the best elements of the ruleset and threw out the stuff that just didn't work. I ended up throwing out too much stuff and what I ended up with was something more like 4th edition (I wrote it during 4th) with 2nd edition stuff sprinkled in.

Crazy stuff like the vortex grenade and the cyclone missile launcher super-giant "fire all the missiles!" template is what made 2nd edition what it was. If you throw out too much of that stuff you can't properly revive the edition. Everything I hated about 2nd edition presented a huge dilemma whether or not to leave it in or take it out. I never liked armor save modifiers - I vastly prefer the AP system but you can't call it 2nd edition 40k without the modifiers.

What I actually ended up with was a little like the 6th edition "leaked" rules (no I did not write that document.)

I'm not really familiar with 2nd ed, maybe I'll take a look - but I'll certainly keep an eye on this, and if someone 2nd'edifies the Dark Eldar or maybe Tau, I'll likely dive in.

The only thing I didn't really like about 2nd edition was how hand to hand combat was resolved. The Better troop pretty much always slaughtered the other side without them ever getting to strike back.