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Working on a new 1750 army, I actually want this to be pretty competitive, unlike most of my army lists. I still need to buy the two Preds and the Ven Dread
1750 point Sons of Ares Space Marine Army List
Librarian with Gate of Infinity and Null Zone-
Elites
5 Assault Terminators with 1 Lightning Claw and 4 TH/SS-200 points
Venerable Dreadnought with assault cannon and heavy flamer-185 points
5 Sternguard Veterans with 2 combi meltas, Razorback with twin linked lascannon-210 points
Troops
10 Tactical Marines with melta gun, multi melta, and Rhino Transport-215 points
10 Tactical Marines with flamer, missile launcher, and Rhino Transport-205 points
10 Tactical Marines with combi melta, melta gun, missile launcher, Razorback with twin linked las-250 points
5 Scouts with missile launcher and sniper rifles-85 points
Heavy Support
Predator with autocannon, lascannon sponsons-120 points
Predator with autocannon, lascannon sponsons-120 points
Total: 1690 points

This is the list so far, feel free to suggest what to add or remove

Thanks

My thoughts:

- put one more TH in the assault terminators squad... but I have to wonder how you're going to deploy them. Usually people put them in a LR so they can deploy out of it into assault without getting shot up first. I assume you're planning on deep striking them into your opponent's back-field?

- the weapon load-out for the sternguard in the razorback isn't very optimized. LR weaponry in the razorback, short range in the sternguard. Is the razorback going to be sitting back and firing or charging forward so the sternguard can do their thing? Sternguard get some of the cheapest heavy weapon upgrades in the marine dex. You might consider giving two of the sternguard las cannons or ML's to compliment the razorback, then deploy them outside to fire away.

Outside of the assault terminators, you don't really have any assault capability. You might consider trying to find the points to give those tactical sergeants a power weapon or something.

The termites are going to be with the librarian and GOi around. Might not be the best strategy, but every game my land raider gets blown up on the first couple turns, too big of a target.I figured to put anti tank weapons on the stern guard and it's razorback so they could go after similar targets. I was thinking about sticking a pfist, combo melts sarge in the raze tax squad and the melta rhino squad

Ah, but the terminators couldn't assault if the blipping around with the libby as they move using deep strike rules. You'd be much better off with a squad of sternguard with two melta guns and some combiweapons if that's the kind of tactic you're going to use the libby for.

I don't love the dread options you have him set as an anti hoard load without any ability to get him in close. Your termis can't get in close either. I'd get rid of the scouts and the tactical squad razorback (for a rhino), then downgrade the dread to have enough pointS for a landraider.

Ok that makes sense. Would you recommend a Crusader or Redeemer? Because the vanilla raider isn't performIng well enoUgh lately. What would the best ven dread load out be? For this list

Here are my suggestions to making your army more competitive.

- There are four builds that are decent in competitive play today. I would suggest using one of those to maximize your competitiveness.
* Shirke builds
* Vulcan builds
* Bike armies
* Dreadnought armies.
Of these builds today I think Shrike is the most competitive, then bikes and vulcan/dreads.

- 4 troops choices at 1750 is a lot. Given that the TAC squads are not that great, I would drop at least one of them.

- 5 terminators outside a LR will get shot to bits. If your not running 10 of them, then you will just get psycannoned/boltered/etc down when you teleport.

- Predators are OK. They have a bunch of weaknesses built in, and I've been stearing clear of them lately in favor of dreads. I like to move and shoot, and I've been finding that predators have less lanes of fire in today's meta and its harder to give them cover. You see, when you put the predator behind cover, the lascannon sponsons can no longer fire!

- I would suggest a land speeder storm for your scouts. I talk more about that in the link below and how it vastly increases your options.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/tac-squads-alternatives-land-speeder-storm-t3581.html

- Aggressive TAC squads need a PF. A PF does most of the heavy lifting in assaults with any MEQ, and can help compensate for the bad assault prowess of your base troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aces High 666 wrote:Ok that makes sense. Would you recommend a Crusader or Redeemer? Because the vanilla raider isn't performIng well enoUgh lately. What would the best ven dread load out be? For this list

its a matter of choice. I perfer the Redeemer for the following reasons
* Cheaper
* You cant fire hurricane bolters when you move 12" (unless you use PotMS to do so)
* Your not going to be bringing more than 7 terminators, so don't need that extra transport
* The flame template is very effective vs scarabs, DE, MEQ, etc...

I agree with the LSS. I used one in ard boyz an it worked fantastically. I'm thinking about making a Shrike list like you said, could a Master of the Forge work as a second HQ. so I could have dreads as heavy support. It sounds interesting to try and I'll write up a list when I get home from school and I'll post it

@labmouse, I think we just have some fundemental disagreements over how to make competative C:SM lists lol. Vulkan lists are very good but they ask you to play within the 24" range. GK, BA, and Necrons play the 24" game better than vanilla marines. Bike lists are fun and a lot more competative than people give them credit for but they are gimmikie. An opponent who has faced them before will know the tricks to destroying them (CC, placing objectives on uper level of runis ect). Dread lists again are really fun to play and can do well against opponents that are a bit over whelmed by the sight of 6 dreads but they really aren't killy enough to be a true TAC tournament winning style list. At the end of the day, a counter-punching or pure shooting build with good generalship is how you win with C:SM.

Pony_law wrote:@labmouse, I think we just have some fundemental disagreements over how to make competative C:SM lists lol.

I guess we can agree to disagree on a few points and agree on others You have to understand Pony, that were talking the best list options in a 3rd tier codex. Your not likely to see any of these on top tables as they just can't compete vs GK or SW.

Pony_law wrote:Vulkan lists are very good but they ask you to play within the 24" range. GK, BA, and Necrons play the 24" game better than vanilla marines.

I agree. This is why I put them at the bottom of the competitive lists for C:SM.

Pony_law wrote:Bike lists are fun and a lot more competative than people give them credit for but they are gimmikie.

Well rounded bike lists can handle those things you mentioned. Scouts outflanking in a LSS can get objectives on top of ruins. Bike players put their objectives out in the open because they bring their cover with them. It's not as bad as one would think. Bikes are also decent at avoiding CC, and there are few lists that can make that tricky. (wraithwing comes to mind)

Pony_law wrote:Dread lists again are really fun to play and can do well against opponents that are a bit over whelmed by the sight of 6 dreads but they really aren't killy enough to be a true TAC tournament winning style list.

Again - we agree and that's I put them at the bottom. Dreads are still decent because they have a lot of advantages for a vehicles.
* They can get cover easily
* They can move and shoot both weapons
* They are hard to hit with templates due to a small footprint.
Are dread lists winners? No, but their not horrible either.