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The new rules are out. What do people think of them?

I've given them a brief once over, and I'm not sure that the changes are all improvements. Especially as regards model removal and shooting. The unit to unit shooting and no model removal was a great streamlining effect. Now with models removed one by one and different models in the unit having different weapons (sgt vs troopers) even before BFGs are added I think it will slow the game a bit. I'm sure that folks requested this, but is it any wonder that it makes the game more like 40k?

Still, with the change to alternate unit activation, I'm really excited to try the rules out. I much prefer that to IGOUGO. If I can have that, I'll live with model casualty removal and individual firing.

Will come back with more observations as I read more.

Edit:
7/31 I changed the rules file to the updated version which is now called "Skirmsh"

The change to alternate unit activation is a huge one, going to take some games to get used to that idea but it keeps people in the game, through it does mean you will be needing more tokens and you don't get "down time" to take little breaks.Also the change to removing models is an other huge one but I like the simple rules for doing so. Warpath has more of a "skirmish" type formation to units rather than the single blocks of other games.

So I like what I am reading so far through I only got in time for a quick scan through. I'll read more into things later on. Through I can't wait to see an updated Veer-myn list for my little rats!

Still needs some heavy playtesting and bugbashing (MSU is an issue right now with how the Nerve system is setup and the changes to Nerve values), but it holds some good promise and should appeal to people looking for different skirmish game than 40K.

I'm very happy with the rules overall.

There's only 1-2 issues that need a fix from what I can immediately see, and it really feels like a more refined set of rules that are more tactically interesting than either Warpath 1.0 or 40k 6th edition.

I dont like the initiative activation rules. I prefer the one used in FUBAR or use a simple +4 to activate the unit.

What happened to the Mantic forums?

They went down for who knows what reason. Got some playtest results to post when they're back up.

The activation is alright but needs a bit of tweaking to prevent MSU spam from overwhelming larger units.

Quick update: Public beta testing is now complete! I got a good amount of games in with darkprince over Vassal, and we thrashed everything out.

Mantic are taking on board 90% of the public playtesting feedback and reworking the rules to internally playtest before releasing them again in a month's time... because Mantic are awesome.

Also, this set of rules is no longer called Warpath, it is called "Warpath Skirmish".

A mass-battle version of the rules and army lists will appear at a later date.

So, basically, think LotR SBG + WotR.. two different game systems for 2 different game sizes rather than trying to shoe-horn both into one game.

Thanks for posting this Ellif. I will definitely be playtesting these as soon as possible (or until the forums are back up lol)

Must... resist.... new.... game... arghhhhhh!

@dj: The wonderful thing is you don't need new models for this, as you should be able to use your own 40K minis for it if you have any (And I've got a fan army list for using Warmahordes models as well if you don't play 40K ).

Or was the problem having another game eating up your time?

Note, I just updated the rules file above to the newer version which was released. They are now being called "Warpath Skirmish". It looks like Mantic may be developing two parallel rulesets, one based on "Skirmish" and one based on the the previous Warpath ruleset.

This would be my prefference as I do like what I'm seeing in Skirmish (which I haven't played yet), but for really large battles, I think I would prefer to stick to the original Warpath which I have played.

darkPrince010 wrote:@dj: The wonderful thing is you don't need new models for this, as you should be able to use your own 40K minis for it if you have any (And I've got a fan army list for using Warmahordes models as well if you don't play 40K ).

Or was the problem having another game eating up your time?

It'll be just another ruleset that I'll get excited for and makes tons of lists for but won't even play haha

I'm still not sure what I think about the destroyed result on the nerve tests.

It seems multiple small units is way, way safer than taking platoons. While it may be simpler to get a +3 onslaught bonus on smaller units, the most you'll ever lose is a small group of soldiers. If you take a platoon, lose a single guy and an 11 or 12 happens to come up on two dice? All dead.

It's also harder to get cover for 20 models than it is for 10.

I do like how if your opponent finishes activating then you can try to activate your remaining ones at a -2, so just because you spam small units, you're not guaranteed to be able to use them all.

^ Nerve rules are being fixed, our playtesting has seen to that.

The exact problem you mentioned (kill one guy, whole platoon dies) came up in 2 of my first playtest games, including the first shot of the first game, and we thrashed out a whole ton of solutions before settling on:

"Make Ne tests at the end of each activation chain instead of after each shot"

coupled with:

"Destroyed! results count as Suppressed instead if the unit still has 50% or more of its starting models".

I do like how if your opponent finishes activating then you can try to activate your remaining ones at a -2, so just because you spam small units, you're not guaranteed to be able to use them all.

That rule wasn't in the first draft, it was suggested by darkprince, and immediately made it into the updated beta rules a few days later.

We'll be getting a list of changes to the beta rules posted up on the Mantic forums at some point. Open beta phase is now complete, and the new modified rules have moved on to the internal playtesting phase (which will mostly focus on army list balance, since the veer-myn are OP as hell in this first draft!).

This is going to be an extremely fun game by the time it comes out. Like 40k, but with Alternate Activation as standard, and taking about half the amount of time to play a game.

The main thing I like about the game is how tactical they've made shooting beyond "choose which target to shoot".. concentration of firepower to kill vs. scattering of firepower to suppress is a real choice that has to be made.

scarletsquig wrote:^ Nerve rules are being fixed, our playtesting has seen to that.

The exact problem you mentioned (kill one guy, whole platoon dies) came up in 2 of my first playtest games, including the first shot of the first game, and we thrashed out a whole ton of solutions before settling on:

"Make Ne tests at the end of each activation chain instead of after each shot"

coupled with:

"Destroyed! results count as Suppressed instead if the unit still has 50% or more of its starting models".

Those look like good fixes.

I especially like the second one. If there's a group of 20 guys, you have to put enough fire power in to wound at least 10 before you have a chance of dispersing them for good.

frozenwastes wrote:
I do like how if your opponent finishes activating then you can try to activate your remaining ones at a -2, so just because you spam small units, you're not guaranteed to be able to use them all.

That rule wasn't in the first draft, it was suggested by darkprince, and immediately made it into the updated beta rules a few days later.

It's a really good rule. I've played alternating activation games before and it's a huge, huge advantage to have more units than the opponent if there's not a mechanic like that. Take Malifaux, for instance. If you husband your cards right and activate things in the right order, you can finish your turn with a huge rush of your strongest stuff just because you have a lot of cheap filler guys. The chance of failing on their activation rolls is such a good idea.

We'll be getting a list of changes to the beta rules posted up on the Mantic forums at some point. Open beta phase is now complete, and the new modified rules have moved on to the internal playtesting phase (which will mostly focus on army list balance, since the veer-myn are OP as hell in this first draft!).

I'm thinking I'll start with the Veer-myn. So far I've been using old warzone plastics against various 40k stand ins gaming buddies have from when they used to play 40k. I've always though rat men belonged in sci-fi or survival horror more than in fantasy, and the Veer-myn aesthetic is totally one that fits right into the survival horror genre.

This is going to be an extremely fun game by the time it comes out. Like 40k, but with Alternate Activation as standard, and taking about half the amount of time to play a game.

The main thing I like about the game is how tactical they've made shooting beyond "choose which target to shoot".. concentration of firepower to kill vs. scattering of firepower to suppress is a real choice that has to be made.

It really does seem solid. Alternating activations is something 40k has needed for a decade. Bringing overwatch back as some sort of charge reaction doesn't cut it in terms of adding interplay between the players.

I was completely turned off by the original mass battle rules. I like this skirmish version, much, much better and it could still easily handle 100+ miniatures a side if that's your thing.

^ Yeah,I've played a few games now, and it's a really fun game, much preferring it to 40k.

I can't even be bothered to learn 6th edition, the £45 price tag for the rules and £27.50 price tag for new codexes is an immediate turn-off considering I could just go ahead and get a 1000-point Warpath army from Mantic for that price. (Forgefather army box + 2 iron ancestors giving a nice rounded force of 20 troops, 10 elites, 2 artillery and 2 walkers).

Here's a list of additional upcoming changes from the next iteration of the rules that has now gone into internal playtesting:

Nerve not scaling and taking too many Nerve checks have both been addressed together.
Being able to take out a unit with a lucky double-6 on a Nerve check has gone. Both snake-eyes and box-cars are gone from the rules completely.
Suppression too powerful – possible solutions 1 & 2 accepted (-2 for activation and inspiring granting a re-roll)
All typos, formatting etc. acknowledged and corrected. Army list stuff too where relevant (i.e. works with the latest changes).
Shooting – -1 for move and fire now removed
Vehicles at full speed cannot shoot unless they are Stabilised in which case they can fire a single weapon

All of the above points were sourced directly from public feedback, about 90% of the issues we raised on the forums were addressed and fixed.

It is really, really refreshing to see direct responses to feedback. I participated heavily in the Warmachine & Hordes tests and found them to be very, very disappointing. They made drastic and sweeping changes and then didn't give enough time for them to be truly tested. Then in the final publication, many rules were drastically changed again with no chance for feedback at all. The Hordes field test was especially poor in this regard.

Thanks for posting the summary of changes. We'll definitely integrate those solutions into our next games.

What I like so far about the rules is that they seem fully functional at lower points values. The simple composition rules probably have something to do with this. As long as you make a list that can counter a bit of everything, even if someone does their best to spam Pulverizer tanks, you'll manage alright.

EDIT:

The model count also doesn't seem as intimidating as it did in the mass battles version. The 1000 points of Forge Fathers you mentioned is 30 infantry models, two artillery pieces and two of those awesome iron ancestor models (It's also shocking just how much you get in models for just what getting the rulebook & codex for a GW game will cost you).

My biggest issue with high model count games is waiting for your turn. My last game of 40k was when I had finally gotten my nids painted and agreed to give them a spin. My opponent had to wait and wait while I moved 100+ bugs. Then they ran/fleeted and I moved them again. Then some assaulted.

I vowed I would never again make someone wait through that again and my nids went up on eBay. For the same reason, I gave a pass on the Warpath alpha/beta 1.

frozenwastes wrote:
What I like so far about the rules is that they seem fully functional at lower points values...

...The model count also doesn't seem as intimidating as it did in the mass battles version. The 1000 points of Forge Fathers you mentioned is 30 infantry models, two artillery pieces and two of those awesome iron ancestor models (It's also shocking just how much you get in models for just what getting the rulebook & codex for a GW game will cost you).
.

This is a good thing for the "Skirmish Rules". I really liked the first version mass battle rules as it allowed for a huge battle in just a couple hours while retaining a good deal of strategy/tactics. Unfortunately it was our experience that the first version was not very useful for smaller sized games. We played as small as 1000 points and both agreed that below that it wasn't as much fun, and the real fun started at 1500 and up. We hope to play some Apocalypse size games with those rules.

The Skirmish Rules are really necessary in my opinion in order to make smaller games fun. There's no reason to have to have a sub-par play experience while you're building your army or if you just want smaller games. I just hope they will be able to continue to develop both rulesets as I think the Skirmish rules would bog down with huge-size games and I see no reason to use one ruleset for everything if you can have them tailor made for certain games.

I hope the two rules sets end up in the same hardback rulebook, so that one is not seen as the basic game and the other as some sort of add on as a separate product.

frozenwastes wrote:I hope the two rules sets end up in the same hardback rulebook, so that one is not seen as the basic game and the other as some sort of add on as a separate product.

YES to this!
Judging from how they've been with public opinions I could see this happen when the next Kickstarter comes around.

HI folks.
I am having no end of trouble getting onto the Warpath forums at mantic.Are they locked?

Anyhow , could I say how great it is Mantic realise KoW in SPAAAACE , is NOT doing Warpath justice.
I would like to post up some alternative rules that can be used for Skirmish and Large Battle Games.

Although alternating activation is FAR better than IGO-UGO (Alternating game turn.)for hard scifi .

Here is my simple(ish) alternative .
(Defender, picks deployment area.Attacker activates first.)

Command Phase.
Players place a single order counter,(face down,) next to each of thier units on good morale.
Players request off table support.(Reserves, air and artillery .)

Primary action phase.
Attacker takes first action of order.(Turn order counter face up one at a time, as player activates units.)
Defender takes first action of order.(Turn order counter face up one at a time, as player activates units.)

Secondary action phase.
Attacker takes second action of order.(Remove counters one at a time , as player activates units.)
Defender takes secon action of order.(Remove counters one at a time , as player activates units.)

Resolution phase.
Players attempt to rally units on poor morale.
Players plot arrivals.

Order Counters.
Order counters are just 2 action sets.made up of the following actions;-
Move, model(s) may move up to its speed value.
Attack, model(s) may attack enemy units within weapon range.(Weapon resolution order.Close assault /small arms/ support/ fire support.)
Prep. model(s) prepare to perfom action with more effect.Eg Set up heavier weapons , use camo/smoke to improve stealth before moving.

Advance>move then attack.

Charge> move then move.

Evade> attack then move

Fire suport> prep then attack.

Infiltrate> prep then move

Pros.
Lets players pick what actions units perform and what order they perform them.

Allows a greater degree of interaction than alternating activation.
(Imagine a real time battle , and you look at the attackers army to see what they are doing,(one actions worth,) then look to see what the defender has done in responce.This is what this game turn models...)

Allows simple modeling of morale damage.(Replace order counter with supression/neutralised/routed marker.)

Order counters can be placed next to elements of various scales.Single models -groups of models -stands-groups of stands.

The counters next to units allow players to have refreshment-toilet breaks and KNOW EXACTLY what the state of the game is..at all times!

Anyhow.
What do you think?