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Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

... and they're short too.  This is just a little something I've been considering to keep me busy until 7th edition is released later this year.  It will strictly be for fun.

The Grudgebearers of Karak Kadrin - 1,000 Pts Dwarf Slayers Roster

++HEROES++

Dragon Slayer @ 114 Pts
      Runic Great Weapon @ 45 Pts
      Master Rune of Kragg the Grim; Rune of Cleaving; Rune of Speed

The Dragon Slayer will join the Brotherhood of Grimnir.

++CORE++

12 Troll Slayers @ 165 Pts
   Musician; Standard Bearer; Giant Slayer (x1); Extra Hand Weapons;

12 Troll Slayers @ 165 Pts
   Musician; Standard Bearer; Giant Slayer (x1); Extra Hand Weapons;

It would be nice if the slayers could use the rules found in the new Dwarf army book that allows them to treat their axes as either an additional hand weapon OR a great weapon.  So until GW gets around to deciding whether the slayers in a Karak Kadrin army get that particular rule would I be better off with the extra hand weapon or a great weapon?

3 Doomseekers @ 195 Pts

I will place one Doomseeker with each Troll Slayer unit and one with the Brotherhood of Grimnir.

++SPECIAL++

11 Brotherhood of Grimnir @ 217 Pts
       Musician; Standard Bearer; Extra Hand Weapon;
       Runic Standard @ 45 Pts
       Ancestor Rune (x2); Rune of Stoicism

The Brotherhood will hold the center of my line.

++RARE++

Malakai Makaisson's Goblin Hewer @ 130 Pts

I couldn't pass up the chance to have as nice a model as the Goblin-Hewer in my army.


Total Roster Cost: 986 points


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Say no to anything other than master rune of swiftness on your character. It just ain't worth it. You're T4 with 2 wounds, and will never get the charge barring some kind of miracle.

Say no to overpriced guys that die the same as normal slayers (+3 pts per model just means the opponent gets more vps for killing them with shooting - don't give them any targets)

Slayers DO follow the new army book rule. It is positively stated in the SoC Faq that slayers use all special rules of their relevant army book.

Say yes to a BSB with the shootie defense rune. Even at 1000 pts I think he is required.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Posted by Longshot on 03/13/2006 2:59 AM
Slayers DO follow the new army book rule. It is positively stated in the SoC Faq that slayers use all special rules of their relevant army book.

I see nothing in the Storm of Chaos FAQ that indicates that you use anything other than the options presented in the Storm of Chaos campaign book.  You only refer to the Dwarf army book where noted and the weapon options is not one of these instances.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Let me get the quote for you:

From the SoC Q&A
Q: If a unit included in a variant list does not have special rules noted, but they do have special rules in their Army book, should we default to the army book? For example, do Slayers in the Slayer list have relentless?
A: Yes, unless stated otherwise, the relevant special rules in Army books are always used. So, Dwarf Slayers in a Slayer army ARE relentless, unbreakable etc, even though it is not noted as such.

Slayer Axes is a special rule not a weapon option. As it's listed in the special rules section for every slayer unit, I think that's pretty cut and dry.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

And you're totally ignoring the important part of the FAQ that you're quoting. Here's the important section in bold::

Q. If a unit included in a variant list does not have special rules noted, but they do have special rules in their Army book, should we default to the army book? For example, do Slayers in the Slayer list have relentless?

A. Yes, UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE, the relevant special rules in Army books are always used. So, Dwarf Slayers in a Slayer army ARE relentless, unbreakable etc, even though it is not noted as such.

The Slayer list clearly states that Troll Slayers are armed with either a great weapon or an extra hand weapon. It does not matter what they are armed with in the Dwarf army book, because the Storm of Chaos campaign book states otherwise.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Let me say it again for you - 'slayer axes' is a special rule. Slayer axes are not equipment.

In case you missed that: Slayer axes are not equipment.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




hemet ca

but the slayer axes are stated as a scpecial rule in the slayer section on page 33. see this is what I hate about gw they cant make the f%$$in' rules clear enough!!!! gayness to the max

Diplomacy is the act of saying good doggie until you can find a big enough rock! 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





OK. It's perfectly clear.

SOC Q&A says: You get special rules associated with slayers.
Slayers get slayer axes special rule in new codex.
Therefore SoC slayers get slayer axes.

How unclear is that? It's crystal. You can choose equipment but the special rule overrides the equipment.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

And again, you've totally failed to actually read the FAQ. What's unclear about "UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE"? It doesn't matter what's written in the Dwarf army book. It is "STATED OTHERWISE" in the Storm of Chaos campaign book. Therefore the FAQ changes nothing. Slayers in a Slayer army use the rules presented in their army list.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





A special rule is not superceded by an armament choice. If it said, "Sorry you don't get this special rule," I would buy it. But it does not.

P1: Rule says you get all special rules unless stated otherwise.
P2: It does not state otherwise (an equipment entry cannot supercede a special rules entry; equipment entry has nothing to do with this)
C: You get slayer axes.

Since I quoted 'unless stated otherwise" i think it's pretty ridiculous to say I haven't read it. We have different definitions of 'unless stated otherwise' I guess.

It does not say otherwise, anywhere. It gives them an armament choice which has absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, to do with special rules.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Posted by Longshot on 03/31/2006 12:31 AM
A special rule is not superceded by an armament choice

Why not? Because you say so? Sorry, but that's not going to cut it. Actually provide a rule to back up your claims or else your just blowing smoke. By being given a choice of different weapons, it does indeed override the slayer's special rules. You have nothing to prove otherwise.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





So your say so that weapon selection overrides special rules is better than my Q&A saying it has to be specifically overridden?

The Q&A proves you wrong. You're reading too much into it. The special rule is not overridden, therefore they get it. Period, end of story.

To override a special rule you need to actually, y'know, override it. Like say, "Slayers in the slayer army do not get slayer axes."

For instance, slayers in the slayer army get "Look, snorri! Trolls!" in addition to what they normally get. Special rules are special rules, equipment is equipment.

Because the special rule simulates equipment doesn't make it follow equipment rules. It's still a special rule.

If the rule was in the 'equipment' section of the new dwarf dex, I would agree with you. But it isn't.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Say you've got a monster that has both Scaly Skin (5+) - a special rule, and Light Armor (6+) armor save. Which one do they use?

That's right. You guessed it. They use the special rule - due to a specific explanation in the rules, mind you.

However, it clearly sets a precedent that having equipment doesn't mean you can't have a special rule that overrides it.

I believe Eternal guard weapons are a similar case for wood elves. Check the Eternal Guard Lord for instance. His eternal guard special weapons always override his equipment entry, to my knowledge.

   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

And again, you use the special rules unless noted otherwise. It is noted otherwise that instead of using 'slayer axes' that they are armed with either two hand weapons or great weapons. Neither of these have the 'slayer axes' special rules. The very FAQ you quoted kills any of the arguments you've just made. You don't use that special rule because it IS stated that they have different weapons, period.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Weapons are weapons and not special rules.

And that's all I've got to say about that.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

So what? Where does it say that only a special rule can override a special rule? It doesn't. The slayer weapon special rules are overridden because it is stated otherwise that they have different weapons.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





You win, which is made extremely easy by you completely ignoring what I say and repeating the same point without any substantiation.

You need to prove that the rule is overridden, but you're not. You're proving that they have a weapon description but there's no reason why this should override a special rule that lets them choose. Plenty of cases in the game where special rules simulate equipment that models don't have.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

If you were making any sense, I'd listen. So far you've done nothing to refute what the FAQ you quoted says. Unless noted otherwise the special rules apply. By giving the slayers a choice of different weapons, then they have noted otherwise. If I were to give the champion a rune weapon, that would override the special rules. Why are the rank and file troopers any different? They're not.

Your claims that only a special rule can override a special rule are ludicrous. You've not even tried to prove that. I've proven my point. Try proving yours for a change.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Right, but a magic weapon is a special case listed in the rules.

Models on foot can have multiple types of weapons as long as none of them are magic. Slayer axes are not magic and nor are their normal weapons. Whee?

So your theory on rune weapons is completely bunk.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





It's impossible to prove that a special rule can't be overridden by a weapon selection because it's never explicitly discussed. All we can do is go by precedent, which is that nonmagical items never override special rules in any other circumstance (eternal guard weapons, scaly skin, etc).
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Posted by Longshot on 04/08/2006 11:13 PM
It's impossible to prove that a special rule can't be overridden by a weapon selection because it's never explicitly discussed

Then why do you keep insisting that's the case? A Dragon Slayer that takes a great weapon or a rune weapon no longer benefits from the slayer axes special rules, so why would a normal rank and file Slayer be able to do something a character can not? Slayers in a slayer army have two weapon options. They either take two hand weapons or they take a great weapon. Neither of these permit the use of the slayer axes special rule.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





A dragon slayer that takes a rune weapon no longer benefits.

Where does it say a dragon slayer that takes a great weapon doesn't get slayer axes?

It sure as bloody hell is not in the new dwarf book. Slayers characters can have 'slayer axes' or a rune weapon. They can't buy other weapons.

The only exception made for slayer axes is that if they have a rune weapon it goes away. The weapon must have a rune on it in order to take away slayer axes.

Allow me to quote the relevant passage:
"If the slayer has a rune axe then this rule ceases to apply and he fights with the rune axe only, generally as a hand weapon but possibly as a great weapon if it has the Master Rune of Kragg the Grimm." (P 33, Army Book Dwarves).

So no, mundane armament does NOT override it.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





If you have a response to that that isn't "Omg, Longshot, I am sorry, you are right right rightyright right, a thousand times right," I think I might kill a puppy.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

You just don't get it, do you? I've shown you where it would NOT apply becausew they have different weapon options. They never had slayer axes in the first place. Is a 'great weapon' a slayer axe? No. Is an 'additional hand weapon' a slayer axe? No. Those are the only two weapon options spelt out for Slayers in the Storm of Chaos campaign book.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Weapon options, yes. But you've never shown how a mundane weapon option overrides a special rule.

There is no exception that says it does, so it doesn't. Period.

All your 'rune weapon' quote does is prove my point. ONLY rune weapons override it. The special rule must be specifically overridden (specifically, not by some general inference of yours) and it is not, because mundane weapons are not rune weapons.

So unless you can prove that having a general armament overrides special rules, you lose, and need to stop repeating this flawed argument.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

And again you've not proven that it doesn't. However you have said that a Slayer that takes different weapons no longer benefits. So which is it? They either have the slayer weapons listed in the Dwarf army book or they have the weapon options listed in their own army list. Since their own army list take precedence and the FAQ even states as much, the do NOT have the slayer axes. They have the weapons listed in their army list, end of discussion.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





A slayer that takes a magic weapon no longer benefits. That's all it says. That's all I've said. If you take a rune weapon, no slayer axes.

However, no rune weapon = slayer axes.

They have the weapons listed in their army list. Then they get to choose to use slayer axes if they wish, because they don't have rune weapons, which are the only things that override slayer axes according to the slayer axes description.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Man i don't get how you can keep saying 'they have the weapon options in their book or they have slayer axes.'

Nothing you've said suggests that to be the case, since SLAYER AXES IS NOT A WEAPON OPTION. anyway, i give up, and you win.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Still the same old tripe that you can't support. Show me where it states thas the slayer axes apply to either 'additional hand weapons' or 'great weapons', because those are the weapons that the Slayers have in their army list. They don't have the slayer axes. It doesn't matter if it's not a weapon option, because their weapon options precludes the use of the slayer axes, period.

You can keep believeing in your fantasy, I'm done with this thread.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Jon Edward would never have won if you'd been nominated.
   
 
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