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Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Ok. Quote is roughly, 'units that are tank shocked are forced to make way by the shortest distance possible.' That's a mild paraphrase but essentially the same.

If you line up two tanks on something, particularly an enemy vehicle, can you force it to 'make way' off of the board edge?

I've been mulling this over because lately I've been seeing everyone and their brothers putting the rear end of their vehicles against the board edge (falcons are the biggest offender). So could you, imagining a situation where the shortest distance possible was off the board edge, force someone's tank off the board edge?

I'll update this with some more quotes when I get a chance, but there's a lot to look for (specifics on how things that get knocked off the board edge are considered destroyed - is this limited by scenario: e.g. are things off the board edge only destroyed when they deviate off or flee off?) In the previous edition you could of course scatter off the board edge with a drifting skimmer, but that's neither here nor there I suppose.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




So you think you can push a vehicle off the table edge and it falls off the world? How 14th century of you.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

Anything that has to fall back off the board edge is removed from play, and counts as destroyed for victory purposes.

Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

If you Tank Shock an infantry unit off the board it counts as dead. It's not too extreme a stretch to think it might apply to vehicles too.

That said, it doesn't sound quite right to me, as the current rules don't support any explicit means by which a vehicle can leave the table via the edge. A deep striking unit can miss the table completely, but that's not quite the same thing.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Troops have to fail a leadership test to do that. Vehicles dont' take leadership tests.

So if I park two rhinos on both sides of a Devilfish can my Predator push it off the board? I'd say no. That is really pushing the rules to where they were not meant to go. If you pushed it anywhere but the table edge what would happen? It would just move. Pushing it off the FLAT 40K WORLD (board edge) is just stupid. I have never liked the 4X4 and 4X6 worlds. If you deepstrike or run past this then you are lost. LOST TO WHAT? I big scary black hole?

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I would think that if you can make a dreadnaught in a dreadclaw that lands 1 inch off the table edge "die", then you can push a vehicle off the edge to "die" as well.
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

The board edge represents the furthest area a model can go, and still be considered a contribution to your force. NM that in many games there will be points INSIDE the board edges that certain units, if they end up there, will NOT be a contribution, due to range movement, LOS or whatever. Just because it doesn't fit your "worldview" does NOT mean that it's not a viable tactic. Anything that moves off, or is forced to touch a board edge is considered destroyed. What ELSE can you do with it? You can't shoot a tank that's off the board... how do you measure LOS and range? How do you determine what facing to use? Likewise, you can't use the tank to shoot back, and even if you COULD "move it back on" like in fantasy, how would you determine how far it moves for purposes of shooting and assault?

Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Ok slider you are trying to use deepstrike and tank shock in one rule and that doesn't work 1%. Show me a rule that says you can tank shock a vehicle off the table? You can't. Vehicles dont' run off the table. They don't get pushed off a cliff either.

Show me a rule where a vehicle can bet pushed off level 3 terrian? ie a rhino on top of a hill with impassible terrian behind it. A devilfish pushes it off the edge. Is the rhino destroyed?

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

Posted By CaptAnderton on 03/13/2006 10:54 AM
Ok slider you are trying to use deepstrike and tank shock in one rule and that doesn't work 1%. Show me a rule that says you can tank shock a vehicle off the table? You can't. Vehicles dont' run off the table. They don't get pushed off a cliff either.

Show me a rule where a vehicle can bet pushed off level 3 terrian? ie a rhino on top of a hill with impassible terrian behind it. A devilfish pushes it off the edge. Is the rhino destroyed?
 
 
 
In this case Anderton you can't push the tank..... impassable terrain is just that, impassable. There is no rule or convention that says the board edge is impassable, in fact it's quite the opposite, vehicles and infantry move over it all the time: Deployment and reserves, and fall back. And btw the way he wasn't trying to combine Deepstrike and Tank Shock, he was showing a precedent that vehicles which leave the board by any amount, are considered destroyed.



Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Imported to Boston

The rules show a clear precedent for allowing a vehicle to be tank shocked off of the table and destroyed by it as already shown.  Also, the completely unadressed situation of how to handle a  vehicle whic has left the board also leave no specific reason to think they aren't destroyed.  Now the situations where this is legitimate are rather limited.

Also, for those who wish to argue intent -cough- CaptAnderton -cough- the designers have specifically changed the 4th ed rules to discourage people from hugging the back edge of the board (BGB p. 49).  The ability to tank shock a vehicle off of the table goes hand in hand with this design idea.

On Dakka when we can't use RAW we use Name calling, Poo throwing, and Dictionary quotes in that order to resolve it. - Glaive Company CO 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Talk about some shady people playing the game of 40k.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

I don't think it's shady. I think there is still a case to be made that the board edge should be treated more like Impassible terrain for this purpose, but I could see people playing like this. If GW didn't want tanks to get shoved around they shouldn't have made them subject to being Tank Shocked in 4th edition.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
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Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I see your point in this but if someone did this to me I would play them again and if it was at a tourny they would get hit on sportsmanship for finding loop holes in the rules.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Its not a loop hole.

The BGB tells you in black and white that the rules have been designed to enforce the designers intent that units should not hug the board edge, and that if you do so, your opponent can easily punish you by running those units off the board.

And, its incredibly simple to avoid. If you see a vehicle with a high armour value moving toward your vehicle camped at the board edge, move it before he can line up a tank shock. If you let a big tank close on your small tank, its your own damn fault.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The Tank Shock rules themselves don't specifically say you can shove an infantry unit off the board, but they also don't say what happens to an infantry unit that has no legal place to go if it gets shoved. Ditto for vehicles, as far as I can see.

I'm happy to go with the idea that units that get shoved off the edge are eliminated.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran







The biggest problem I have with tank-shocking things off the board edge, is that the rules are considered permissive. You have to be allowed to do something before you can do it.

And as far as I can tell, the only time a unit can move off the table is when they are falling back. Sure deep-strikers can deviate off, but that's still not moving.
So if a unit can either choose to move, or be forced to move (other than falling back), to off the table - then by all means you could do it.
But right now, I'm reading it that you can't.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Ok after thinking about his I have concluded that you can't tank shock things off the table.

I gave the example of of the rhinos and pred pushing a devilfish off the table. Lets put a unit in there.

Ok I get tankshocked and I PASS my leadership. To go the shortest way I'd be off the table but I made my test. So I simply move the shortest safest place to go. So no you can't tank shock a vehicle off the table because it doesn't have a leadership and can't be chased off the table.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





If you did that you'd be breaking the rules and i'd hit YOU on sportsmanship. BBB clearly denounces hugging board edges while clearlyu stating "shortest route". If that route is the boardedge, you are off.
You can't go making up rules to suit the moment.

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




In the rule book under tank shock it says you have to move the shortest but keep unit coherency AND you are UNHARMED. So you can't make them run off the board. This would harm them. So they would simply move the shortest safe place to go. YOu guys sure like to cheat a lot here.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





It says you're unharmed as in you take no damage, not unharmed as in 'not pushed off the table and destroyed.'

Personally, my opinion is that this is perfectly legitimate and is a counter to the even lamer 'I put my butt to the invisible forcefield' tactic.

The ruleset is permissive. It specifically allows you to push things around with tank shock. It says they move out of the way by the least distance necessary to get them out of the way. Any other unit forced to leave the table is destroyed (fleeing, scattering). It is not much of a stretch at all, but it is not explicitly spelled out in its own section - perhaps because it seems to be self-evident.

I would tend to agree about the impassible terrain thing, except for the way fleeing units are treated. If fleeing units hit difficult terrain they go around it. If a fleeing unit hits the board edge it is destroyed. This clearly separates impassible terrain from the board edge.

I suspect it stands up to the RAW, but only because there are multiple ways units can be destroyed by hitting the board edge - this suggests that the board edge is not limited in its destructive capability only to certain scenarios. However, as there is no explicit wording that says 'board edge = death,' it is open to some interpretation.

It never, ever says you move out of the way in the safest way possible - you can, for example, be forced to walk into a Whirlwind minefield or into dangerous terrain. You give way by the shortest distance possible, not the safest shortest distance. This is spelled out:

"They must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance (Maintaining unit coherency), but otherwise the unit is unharmed (p 70)."

Some corroborating evidence is available on page 49, wherein:
"Once a unit reaches the table edge it is considered to have left the immediate battle and may not return." Someone has already quoted the designer's note so I'll leave that be.

It's a continued shock to me that your signature continues to have the gall to claim that you know the rules, Anderton. Perhaps you could adjust it to "I know how to make up the rules as I go along."
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Here are some other instances of leaving the board edge from various codexes:

Eldar Warp Spiders rules force them to first 'choose a direction' and then 'roll 2d6"' to see how far they teleport, and I'm fairly sure they get nuked if they go off the board edge.

Veil o' darkness, but that's like deep strike I believe.

Pods do not deep strike, they arrive by drop pod assault, and die if they scatter off, as has been mentioned.

I /believe/ that the Nightbringer can shove things away and potentially launch them out of CC off the edge, but I don't have a Necron codex handy so not sure about that (if someone could check it it'd be appreciated).

Stay 'way from the edge of the world, boyos! The game is extremely consistent on the count of 'if it goes to the board edge it is dead.'
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Which is why making your leadership test means you are safe from the board edge.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Posted By CaptAnderton on 03/13/2006 6:45 PM
In the rule book under tank shock it says you have to move the shortest but keep unit coherency AND you are UNHARMED. So you can't make them run off the board. This would harm them. So they would simply move the shortest safe place to go. YOu guys sure like to cheat a lot here.
 
 
You just CAN'T really be saying that ....... in fact, that is such an assinine statement i'm not even going to dignify it further.


The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





"Which is why making your leadership test means you are safe from the board edge."

Leadership: the new invulnerable save! not just for moral checks anymore!

The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Well I just read through it again and I can see an issue you could have with the example you are trying to use. . . In your example the devilfish would move the shortest distance to get out of the way of the Tank Shocking predator. . . Which happens to be directly over the top of one of the Rhino's or over the Predator depending on size since its a Skimmer, it can move over enemy models. . . Now if you use something thats not a Skimmer such as tank shocking a Rhino (instead of a DF) I don't know what would happen. . .

Board Board Board or Board Board Board
ooo ooo ooo                   ooo ooo ooo
  R    DF    R                      R    R     R
ooo ooo ooo                   ooo ooo ooo
       ooo                                 ooo
         P                                     P
       ooo                                 ooo
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





If the shortest distance is off the board edge, it's gone, skimmer or not - it has to take the absolute shortest path to get out of the way. Since it can't end its move flying over something else, it's going to have a much shorter trip off the board edge. And it has to be at least an inch away from the shocking vehicle - on top of is certainly not an inch away.

Assuming of course that the other parts of the rules query hold up.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Actually I think his quote about it being unharmed is a sticking point here. Your claim that because the unit isn't taking wounds means that it's unharmed doesn't exactly hold water. If "pushed off the board" = dead, then that's certainly harm. Regular infantry units have to blow their morale test to run off the board. Otherwise they are supposed to move out of the way and be unharmed.

Now that I consider that quote, I am less than satisfied with pushing tanks (or infantry units which pass their Morale tests) off the board.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Interestingly enough, if you fail the morale test from tank shock, you will begin to fall back and might run into trouble if the unit tank shocking you can move through your unit toward your deployment zone. . .

D = Devil Fish, SM = Space Marine
----12 Inches-----/----- 14 inches ------
Impassable Impassable Impassable
ooo        o   o                               Board
oPo -- o SM o                             Board
ooo        o   o                               Board

If the Devil Fish moves 12 inches forward, the space marines are going to have to move toward the bottom of the screen since the other side is impassable, if they fail the subsequent morale check, they will have to fall back 2d6 inches towards their board edge which happens to be near the Devil Fish, If they do so they should land within a couple inches of the devil fish making them unable to regroup during their next turn which makes them fall back another 2d6 inches probably off the board.

   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





"If a unit is overrun by a tank, and individual models would end up underneath the vehicle, they must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance possible, but otherwise the unit is unharmed."

Unharmed is clearly talking about not getting squished by the tank and not being forced to flee. In being pushed off the board edge, it's walking off the board edge that is doing the killing not the tank shocking. You're not being harmed by the tank, you're being harmed by jumping off the edge of the world.

In order to take this unharmed quote to its natural conclusion with this line of thinking: Would we contend, then, that if a unit is forced into dangerous terrain or onto a minefield by being tankshocked, they will instead march 10" around the minefield/dangerous terrain so they avoid being harmed, since being tankshocked makes you invulnerable during its forced movement? Again I'd say no, since they're not being harmed by the tankshock, they're being harmed by lava/mines/broken power swords.

If you read the sentence as:
"If a unit is overrun by a tank, and individual models would end up underneath the vehicle, they must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance possible, but otherwise the unit is unharmed by suffering a tank shock." it makes a lot more sense, since that's what the sentence means if you read it in context.
   
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Eh. I am loathe to add text like that.

If you're going to do that the rule could just as easily be read as "If the unit is overrung by a tank, and individual models would end up underneath the vehicle, they must be moved out of the way by the shortest route possible, but otherwise the unit is unharmed (place them into the nearest open space).

That would be more in keeping with the meaning of the word "unharmed". Forcing a unit off the table (by means of a failed Morale test) is clearly one of the main uses of Tank Shock, and it would be silly to think that the designers didn?t think of that as harm.


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
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