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a car race based brand , seeing as they have copied most of the niches GW 1990 has created

 Synthetik wrote:
a car race based brand , seeing as they have copied most of the niches GW 1990 has created

Maybe.

Is it a flawed business model then, to look at the way GW's older games are still warmly regarded (and played) and say "Hey, if they're not going to support their own games then we'll give people an alternative, there might be money in it after all." ?

I dont think it is a flawed model...but is it orginal ? My concern is that people will play these games and not get the satidfaction of playing dreadball that they did with bloodbowl...

and I prefer not to retread the same road , I can play BB with my BB rulesbooks and models....

 Synthetik wrote:
I dont think it is a flawed model...but is it orginal ? My concern is that people will play these games and not get the satidfaction of playing dreadball that they did with bloodbowl...

and I prefer not to retread the same road , I can play BB with my BB rulesbooks and models....

Well that's fine, they're not the same game. You can play BB with your rules & models, then get in a game of Dreadball after. I think the makers of Dreadball are going to great lengths to showcase the different mechanics involved, and the different setting.

As for your concern, I don't understand what you're getting at. Do you think that Dreadball with definitely be worse than BB? Are you worried that people playing Dreadball will be conned into thinking that this is the best possible sports-wargaming experience? You've phrased your 'concern' in an odd way and I'm not entirely sure what your criticism is.

I do not want to get drawn into a which is better BB or Dreadball debate, but I think your argument is flawd.

You cannot reinvent the wheel and given GW's dominance over the last thirty years it would be difficult for a new company to come up with something completely new that sold.

If I was a betting man, a post apocalytic car game would be out, but a slick scifi racing game could be something new. Sleek bike sort of ala Akira, tied with the violence of the classic game Road rash?

Remember as well, fantasy creatures playing football wasn't GW's idea. GW started as an importer of Dungeons & Dragons and TSR's other products. TSR has "Monsters of the Midway" in one of their publications five years before Bloodbowl came out. I believe it's the first published instance of fantasy creatures playing American style football.

Similarly, Car Wars was published 2-3 years by Steve Jackson Games prior to the release of Battlecars by GW.

wilycoyote wrote:


You cannot reinvent the wheel and given GW's dominance over the last thirty years it would be difficult for a new company to come up with something completely new that sold.

Infinity
Malifaux
Warmachine
hordes
dust tactics

new products from newer companies that have sold.

My argument is that Mantics products to me seem to be reinventions of games already established , and is this a bad move just rehashing older game concepts..there not new ideas for games , yes new and differing rules, but the 'genre' they are set in seems to close to established older games , which smacks of lets just copy a game but with Kickstarter money....(Kickstarter , another concept I dont fully agree with but thats another issue).

I would love to see a return to hard sci-fi gaming by a company. It'd be so old that it'd be new again. Infinity is close, but it also has a fantastic special forces anime bent to it rather than a military grittiness.

 Synthetik wrote:
My argument is that Mantics products to me seem to be reinventions of games already established , and is this a bad move just rehashing older game concepts..there not new ideas for games , yes new and differing rules, but the 'genre' they are set in seems to close to established older games , which smacks of lets just copy a game but with Kickstarter money....(Kickstarter , another concept I dont fully agree with but thats another issue).

It's not a bad idea for the company (which will sell units) or the consumer (which gets a game at least close to what they want).

It's hard to see how it's a good idea. I guess in a parallel universe where the respect of old school gamers was a tangible asset, this would be a bad idea. In a world where making a product people want to buy can be profitable, it's often a good idea.

 Polonius wrote:

 Synthetik wrote:
My argument is that Mantics products to me seem to be reinventions of games already established , and is this a bad move just rehashing older game concepts..there not new ideas for games , yes new and differing rules, but the 'genre' they are set in seems to close to established older games , which smacks of lets just copy a game but with Kickstarter money....(Kickstarter , another concept I dont fully agree with but thats another issue).

It's not a bad idea for the company (which will sell units) or the consumer (which gets a game at least close to what they want).

It's hard to see how it's a good idea. I guess in a parallel universe where the respect of old school gamers was a tangible asset, this would be a bad idea. In a world where making a product people want to buy can be profitable, it's often a good idea.

Agreed ( I think, you might be missing a 'not' in there). I fail to see how providing what people seem to want for acceptable prices is an issue for anyone. If there was no market for it, then people wouldn't buy it and Mantic would have failed years ago.

I'm still not seeing a coherent argument from you Synthetik, you just seem annoyed that a company can make money without being all about 100% brand new ideas and concepts (Have you seen the technology industry recently?). How is it a 'bad move'? You're failing to connect your own feeling with any actual negatives.

 Synthetik wrote:

wilycoyote wrote:


You cannot reinvent the wheel and given GW's dominance over the last thirty years it would be difficult for a new company to come up with something completely new that sold.

Infinity
Malifaux
Warmachine
hordes
dust tactics

new products from newer companies that have sold.

My argument is that Mantics products to me seem to be reinventions of games already established , and is this a bad move just rehashing older game concepts..there not new ideas for games , yes new and differing rules, but the 'genre' they are set in seems to close to established older games , which smacks of lets just copy a game but with Kickstarter money....(Kickstarter , another concept I dont fully agree with but thats another issue).

That is true, although I could make a list at least double that length of companies that have tried and failed to make their own place in the wargaming market. It's getting easier these days - both the rise of the internet, and here in the UK at least the return of the FLGS has helped other manufacturers muscle in, but there are a lot of rotten old husks lying by the side of the road of companies that tried there own thing and failed. I would argue even that the likes of Infinity, Malifaux and Dust Tactics have nothing like the recognition and market share they deserve - even with miniatures and rules that offer something genuinely new and exciting to GW's well-trodden systems they are still having to make massive effort to get even small percentages of market share (although.. I read that the industry grew by almost 20% last year, which I think is good news for both the games makers and us!)

So, I think in the early days at least Mantic's reasoning was sound - they already had a massive market open to them, and by making miniatures that were compatible with GW games they were opening up that demographic who wanted to play those games but perhaps couldn't (or were unwilling) to spend the increasingly exorbitant fees that GW was charging. So, perhaps the criticism they were getting 1-2 years ago was not entirely unwarranted. Same too with the lack of original sculpts for the Warpath range, especially the Ork and Space Dwarf lines.

But, they have also been very clever in picking up the areas left disenfranchised by GW - the 'Space Crusade/Heroquest' niche that pulled so many of us into games in the first place was filled by Dwarf King's Hold and now Project Pandora. There is a whole generation of gamers who never got to try those great games, and now Mantic have filled that niche. By all reports those efforts were successful - I read about a year ago that the initial print run of 30,000 DKH sold out pretty quickly. Those who want Squats/Hrud have had those desires sated also - speaking personally, it has been wonderful to get a 'space dwarf' army that hasn't left me prey to some of Ebay's most nefarious denizens So on that front at least I've got a bit of a soft spot for them - being ex-GW guys, they have known what a lot of fans have wanted, and have made some effort to answer that.

But at the same time I think the next year or two is going to be really interesting. Now they have presumably made some revenue by sticking to the 'safe route' (cheap options for WFB and 40k), it remains to be seen what they can come up with now that at least one hand has been untied. Dreadball looks promising - I've seen enough on the You-tube vids and Jake Thornton's comments to realise that it is going to be different enough from Blood Bowl. Same too with Kings of War - there is more than enough room in 2012 for more than one mass-battle fantasy system, and KoW plays very differently to Fantasy. I think there is room for both in the market. Interestingly, a lot of guys in my club who had previously stuck Mantic units as fillers in their WFB armies (I've found non-forum wargamers to be a lot less fan-boyish regarding a particular company than their internet counterparts) are now trying out KoW as well. Ultimately, it is we as gamers who are benefiting from having a new company on the scene.

I think really the opening post is a reminder of how the wargaming market has changed, and also GW's place in it. They really did used to be Games Workshop - the 90's were an absolutely wonderful time and a Golden age for the company in terms of the truly ground-breaking products they were releasing. Perhaps not entirely original, but sanitised and packaged for the mass-market for the first time. These days, perhaps necessarily (and an elastic reaction from going too far previously) they have significantly reduced their range and spread of games. And, it's a testament to their games released previously that they had so many areas covered - the sports games, the space battles, post-apocalyptic Mad Max-esque games, even those for younger kids (Trolls in the pantry etc.) Which makes it a bit hard for new company's not to be labelled with the copy-cat tag, even though I haven't seen a game of Dark Future being played for probably 20 years and probably since a lot of posters on this forum were born!

In any case, they do say about imitation being the most sincere form of flattery. I'm glad it looks like Mantic have done enough to stick around, and hopefully over the next few years we will see them flex their creative muscles a little more.

Riquende wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Synthetik, you just seem annoyed that a company can make money without being all about 100% brand new ideas and concepts (Have you seen the technology industry recently?). How is it a 'bad move'? You're failing to connect your own feeling with any actual negatives.

Im annoyed that with all of Ronnies acumen and Allesandros genius that have to pander to an idea that is 20 + years old to make money, Mantic make great models , I dont deny that , and I use Rangers and Maruaders for games. Its just I see nothing original , thats my feeling and to me thats MY negative...which in the end is all that matters , just as you opinion is all that matters to you.

Can an op lock this thread , its going nowhere apart from butting heads..Cheers

James

I must admit that I would like to see mantic do something wholly original in the future, but for now they’ve found a niche and exploited it, good on them. If GW aren’t prepared to bring back old races or are insistent on selling core troops at premium prices then they leave themselves open for a competitor to cater to those who otherwise might leave the hobby for good.

As for King of War, it’s fantastic and has It’s managed to get me to dust off the one GW army I’ve got left. It’s breath of fresh air after WFB has gotten more and more convoluted to the point of unplayability.

More power to Mantic's elbow.

As a rule, originality tends to be overrated.

 Synthetik wrote:
.

Im annoyed that with all of Ronnies acumen and Allesandros genius that have to pander to an idea that is 20 + years old to make money

But in terms of rules, it isn't the same, and it is a much faster system. So I can only assume you're saying that the idea of fantasy races lined up in regiments is the 20+ year old idea, and I'm inferring from your statement that you think there should never be another game where that happens, as it would be 'copying' Warhammer.

Some good, educational comments from some of guys above, so I wouldn't say the thread is serving no purpose.

*Ahem* Chainmail. *Ahem* 1971 *Ahem*

Riquende wrote:

 Synthetik wrote:
.



But in terms of rules, it isn't the same, and it is a much faster system. So I can only assume you're saying that the idea of fantasy races lined up in regiments is the 20+ year old idea, and I'm inferring from your statement that you think there should never be another game where that happens, as it would be 'copying' Warhammer.

No , Im saying Im disappointed that they have copied ideas already done as flagship products , I dont think there should never be another game that does this , but to line up three products to me smacks of unoriginalty...I dont doubt there great rulessets , I enjoyed warpath , but I am just irked they havent had an original idea.

Synthetic.. what the hell is going on with your quote boxes mate?

Undoubtedly the centre of the business model has been to provide cheaper minis for GW's games, or at least it was for the first 1-2 years. Warpath and Kings of War look to grow beyond that (the background is already developing in quite cool directions).

Both of GW's 'core' games, 40k and WFB, were unbelievably generic when they first appeared (WFB especially) - I hope that in time Mantic's games will start to take a route of their own. And, as the company seems to have become something of a haven for departed GW employees, perhaps the present guys who have come from that company (as well as others in the future no doubt!) will be allowed to exercise their imagination and make something completely original?

It's definitely more of a risk, but perhaps now that Mantic has more of a solid grounding we will see more of that (at least I hope so!)

I also think that while the market is full of "unique" or "original" game concepts, there aren't a lot of makers of plastic, ranks and flanks style fantasy. Meaning, while the market for truly new stuff is actually pretty rich, the market for "generic" stuff is less so.

^ This is very true.

If you want generic *fantasy* humans in plastic, your choice is limited to GW Empire/ Brteonnians, or nothing.

Mantic releasing their human range next year will be extremely welcome, no-one else has bothered to make plastic fantasy humans despite it being the most glaringly obvious choice to make.

And plastic really is the key word there. I mean yeah, Brother Vinni (and the other several hundred garage companies) might make really cool fantasy landsknect for £12/model, but no-one is ever going to make an army that way, which is why GW can happily charge so much for its greatswords. There are no alternative manufacturers currently.

 Synthetik wrote:
I dont think it is a flawed model...but is it orginal ? My concern is that people will play these games and not get the satidfaction of playing dreadball that they did with bloodbowl...

and I prefer not to retread the same road , I can play BB with my BB rulesbooks and models....

Who cares if it is original?

Many people cant play bloodbowl or dont even know what it is (thanks to GW no less).

If GW supported them and continued to put out cool/updated models I would be building multiple armies for both Epic and BFG. They don't, so I spend that cash elsewhere. IF mantic does a version of either I will most likely buy them.

Gw chooses to ignore what many people want. Good on Mantic for stepping in...

Frankly, I wouldn't blame Mantic at all for stepping in and offering a compatible model range (And hopefully game system as well) for BFG, Epic, and maybe even Dreadfleet/Man 'O War.

Spartan Games somewhat took up the slack from the abandoned Man 'O War IP, but quickly dropped it and moved on to focus on Dystopian Wars. I don't blame them for doing so, but this means there's an opening again for that area of gaming.

Considering the simplicity of sculpts (Fewer parts, less customizability, similar or less detail depending on the model) for the Epic/BFG/Dreadfleet models, I think this would be a very, very smart area for Mantic to move into next, even if just in the form of a Kickstarter or very small run sometime in the next few years.

 scarletsquig wrote:
^ This is very true.

If you want generic *fantasy* humans in plastic, your choice is limited to GW Empire/ Brteonnians, or nothing.

Even the GW Empire/ Bretonnians aren’t especially fantastical. They are essentially historical armies with fantasy elements bolted on.

Currently you may as well buy your humans from Perry and Conquest.

^ That's very true.

I'm extremely excited for mantic's take on humans, which will cover three different alignments (Good, Evil and Nature) and be a lot more "fantasy" with female units, sabertooth cavalry etc.

They'll be basing the design and theme on Indian mythology which should result in a very nice change from the usual quasi-Europe approach.

The good army will be a solar cult of sun-worshippers led by "The Shining Ones" (who never appear in public) and their inner circle of angels. Most of their country was destroyed by tsunami after the magical apocalypse and only a single city remains.

That's an very cool starting point IMO, with the good army also being a fanatical dictatorship on the brink of destruction. It sets them up as "yes, they're good, but yes they're also ruthless and downright dangerous".

Guy Haley = awesome background writer, and Mantic should hire him more.

For me the appeal of the Empire in warhammer fantasy has always had very little to do with the core background, and everything to do with the fact that it's very well-fleshed out and there's so much that has been written about it.

Mordheim was particularly brilliant in that it dialled the clock back to 1999 to a point where the Empire really was a wreck, I preferred that much darker, vulnerable (and outright insane) setting instead of the current "chaos invades, empire wins after karl franz bashes the big evil dude over the head with his hammer, rinse and repeat next year" cycle.

 scarletsquig wrote:
^ That's very true.

I'm extremely excited for mantic's take on humans, which will cover three different alignments (Good, Evil and Nature) and be a lot more "fantasy" with female units, sabertooth cavalry etc.

They'll be basing the design and theme on Indian mythology which should result in a very nice change from the usual quasi-Europe approach.

The good army will be a solar cult of sun-worshippers led by "The Shining Ones" (who never appear in public) and their inner circle of angels. Most of their country was destroyed by tsunami after the magical apocalypse and only a single city remains.

That's an very cool starting point IMO, with the good army also being a fanatical dictatorship on the brink of destruction. It sets them up as "yes, they're good, but yes they're also ruthless and downright dangerous".

Guy Haley = awesome background writer, and Mantic should hire him more.

For me the appeal of the Empire in warhammer fantasy has always had very little to do with the core background, and everything to do with the fact that it's very well-fleshed out and there's so much that has been written about it.

Mordheim was particularly brilliant in that it dialled the clock back to 1999 to a point where the Empire really was a wreck, I preferred that much darker, vulnerable (and outright insane) setting instead of the current "chaos invades, empire wins after karl franz bashes the big evil dude over the head with his hammer, rinse and repeat next year" cycle.

I was going to PM you to ask, but since you put it RIGHT out here...when are these armies going to be available (if you know), and how are they going to release the rules for them? Do their army boxes come with print out sheets of the units, or will there be a Humans book, or...idk. Just hoping to hear what the plan is so I can start thinking of human armies...besides the single army done already.

Sounds fun, I may pause in my purchase of stuff in order to buy in on a good kickstart set of humans.

Why?


FOR THE GLORY OF THE SUN CULT!!!

^ You already missed the kickstarter for the first human army, not sure if there's going to be another one just for the others.

6 Celestian units and 4 characters were released and sold at a 50% discount as part of the last KoW kickstarter.

@time to waste - All info on this was posted and talked about during the KoW kickstarter if you looked closely enough!

The entire Celestian army is being released early next year as part of the Kickstarter, and the rules will be provided as a supplement with 3 new army lists and background detailing the three human factions.

They'll probably (hopefully) be posted online for free as well.

No idea when the other 2 arrive, the Celestians are the only one with a set-in-stone release date at this point, kickstarter backers get a ton of free Celestian units, and they will be the first people to receive the models.

 Synthetik wrote:

wilycoyote wrote:


You cannot reinvent the wheel and given GW's dominance over the last thirty years it would be difficult for a new company to come up with something completely new that sold.

Infinity
Malifaux
Warmachine
hordes
dust tactics

new products from newer companies that have sold.

My argument is that Mantics products to me seem to be reinventions of games already established , and is this a bad move just rehashing older game concepts..there not new ideas for games , yes new and differing rules, but the 'genre' they are set in seems to close to established older games , which smacks of lets just copy a game but with Kickstarter money....(Kickstarter , another concept I dont fully agree with but thats another issue).

Funny, you say 'these games were all knew', but they are all based around sci-fi or fantasy miniatures where you use a ruler to move and roll dice to resolve combat... that is pretty much the exact same description of all of GW's games.

What suprises me is that you haven't started berating all of the current and past miniature game rule sets and concept because they simply copied H.G. Wells' 1911 set of rules titled 'Floor Games' or the 1913 companion 'Little Wars'.

It's cool if you don't like Mantic, but why waste everybody's time by posting these sorts of posts?

Thanks
n.

neldoreth wrote:


Funny, you say 'these games were all knew', but they are all based around sci-fi or fantasy miniatures where you use a ruler to move and roll dice to resolve combat... that is pretty much the exact same description of all of GW's games.

What suprises me is that you haven't started berating all of the current and past miniature game rule sets and concept because they simply copied H.G. Wells' 1911 set of rules titled 'Floor Games' or the 1913 companion 'Little Wars'.

It's cool if you don't like Mantic, but why waste everybody's time by posting these sorts of posts?

Thanks
n.

Don't be silly. Everyone knows that Little Wars was a blatant copy of Kriegsspiel circa 1812.

GW wasn't the first to have allot of the idea behind their games. I'm happy to see a competitor enter the market. If Mantic manages to eat enough of GW's pie, maybe we'll finally see the prices of some of GW's products drop. And if not, maybe in another 20 years, Warhammer will be about as well known as Chainmail.



I

Guys, everybody knows that all miniatures wargames are simply derivitative of early human fertility dolls (sculptures that represent powers, duh) and ancient dice games.