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Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Two questions:

1. When an IC joins a unit, does he count towards the number of models of the unit? (This can be important when you determine if a unit has lost 25% of its models for example)

 

2. When an IC joins a unit, does he count when you determine if the unit is below half strength? And are his VPs added to the units VPs?

 

I found no clear rule in the BBB and personally tend to think ICs contribute to the number of models in a unit (since ICs are models). But when it comes question #2 things get complicated for me. It feels a bit cheap to join a nonscoring (possibly rather expensive) unit like an IC to a unit and make it scoring at once.

What do you think?

 

 

   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
1 - sometimes yes, sometimes not;
2 - VP issues answered on page 86;
3 - muddled questions get vague answers.
Borys
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




1- I dont completely understand. Which cases are you referring to?

2- Example: p: 86 " ... you score victory points equal to the points cost of thouse scoring uniits entirely in the opponents deployment zone... " So the unit obviously grants you VPs if above half strength, but does the IC count towards that? And does he add his points to the overall cost of the unit?

3 - I hope its more clear now.
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
ICs count as part of the unit in close combat, where their wounds are used to calculated outnumbering.
I can't find this in the rulebook, so maybe I am going by 3rd edition, but I would use the IC to calculate unit size for 25% casualties from shooting purposes.
On page 86 you seem to be missing the Units With Distinct Parts section.

Borys
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


1) Still thinking about #1. . .

2) After the game finishes, Victory points are determined on a unit to unit basis regarding how the unit finished the game vs. its starting strength. Each distinct element (as described on page 86) is counted seperately. It doesn't matter if an IC has joined a unit or not. His Victory points are counted seperately from the unit he was joined to during the game. Therefore an IC cannot make a non-scoring unit into a scoring unit by joining it.


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
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yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




An IC never "scores" in any way.
185
92,5
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
No.
IC never scores - it is the Retinue that scores.
Borys
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Borys are you sure the IC doesn't score? Are you? IC with 9 retinue. IC and 4 retinue are alive. Does he score or is the squad below half? I guess the IC scores.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
Your guess is wrong. The squad is below half.
This is clear from the table on page 85 and the the Units With Distinct Parts section on page 86.
Borys
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Silverdale, WA

The easy way to think about it is that During the game the IC counts as part of the unit, but After the game he is counted seperately.

So a 10 model unit is reduced to 4 models.
An IC joins them bringing the unit's number to 5 models.
They will not suffer the negative modifiers for being below half strength during the game since the unit is 5 out of 10 models strong.

When the game ends the unit is split into it's distinct elements for scoring purposes.
So the unit is 4 out of 10 models strong.
The IC is alone
Any objectives the unit or IC own award no points, nor do they contest ownership to the opponent since the unit is below half strength and the IC can never Score for the owner.

 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
Anderton, I have learnt my lesson - your posts are to be ignored.
Bye!
Borys
   
Made in us
Mounted Kroot Tracker







I count a joined independent character as counting toward model size during the game.  He certainly counts for unit size when it comes to transports, so why not for unit size in other situations (like 25% casualties for morale checks)?

Here is a bonus question:  If an IC takes models as wargear (hounds, wolves, etc.) and one of those models takes a wound, but the IC himself stays unwounded, is he worth half VPs?

- Oaka


   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Anyone interested in how vps work for ICs in squads, read the "Units with Distinct Parts" section on page 86. I am now deleting Anderton's posts as they appear to be a deliberate attempt to confuse readers.

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Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA

Posted By Oaka on 03/16/2006 12:29 PM

Here is a bonus question:  If an IC takes models as wargear (hounds, wolves, etc.) and one of those models takes a wound, but the IC himself stays unwounded, is he worth half VPs?

- Oaka


RAW, I don't think the loss of wargear models count as anything towards VPs. The IC himself must be wounded to give up VPs.




I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Thanks Mannahnin. I feel a little blind now that you point it out. So question numer 2 is settled. (ICs do not count towards the number of models in a unit when VPs are counted) Question 1 still seems to remain open:

1. When an IC joins a unit, does he count towards the number of models of the unit (during the game, for example when the unit gets shot and you might need to take an LD test)?

 

 

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Silverdale, WA

I suppose I've been taking it for granted that an IC joined to a unit is a member of the unit as long as he's joined to it. The wording in the 'Characters' section of the BGB seems pretty clear cut to me since they use the phrase "...while a character is part of a unit..." in the section describing Characters joining and leaving the unit. I guess it doesn't come right out and say that he becomes another member of the unit though. That would be pretty silly though if the IC didn't count. An IG command squad that included a commissar would take a -1 morale hit if the commissar, a guardsman and the officer were the only remaining squad members alive. That just doesn't sound right.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Page51: CHARACTERS AS LEADERS
"One of the advantages of being part of a unit is that any Leadership tests the unit takes are then made using the character's Leadership value, if it is superior to the unit's."

Morale checks are Leadership tests.
If the unit is taking a Leadership test, the character is "part of the unit".

If a character is "part of the unit" it should be considered for unit strength.

Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in us
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Longtime Dakkanaut







Ahoj!
Anderton, I have learnt my lesson - your posts are to be ignored.
Bye!
Borys


When Borys says that, you know that there's something up.

Hey, I may disagree with you alot on rules q's, but at least you've got integrity and are honest about where you're coming from.

If a character is "part of the unit" it should be considered for unit strength.


Except, of course, that the rules state otherwise.

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Except, of course, that the rules state otherwise.

Care to be a little more specific?


Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Silverdale, WA

It should be noted that as of about 5 posts ago the discussion has shifted to the "during game" strength of a unit. In other words a 10 model unit has lost 6 members but is currently joined by an IC. We know they are non-scoring, but do they suffer a -1 morale hit and can they even re-group if they fail it?

 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Posted By Glaive Company CO on 03/17/2006 2:13 AM
It should be noted that as of about 5 posts ago the discussion has shifted to the "during game" strength of a unit. In other words a 10 model unit has lost 6 members but is currently joined by an IC. We know they are non-scoring, but do they suffer a -1 morale hit and can they even re-group if they fail it?



Of course they can regroup, everyone plays marines thus they all have ATSKNF.

If the rule book simply refers to half their starting strength then there should be no reason why IC's can't count towards this.

If it somehow makes reference to the models having to have been part of the squad from the start then you have a case, at current I don't see it.

Either way I'd let my opponent count them.

   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







In what way does having an IC join the squad change the original strength of the squad?

Once again, a swing and a miss for Popeye...

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Anderton's posts deleted again as he is still talking about ICs affecting the scoring or non-scoring status of a unit without reading page 86.

Anderton- Read the bloody rules and stop posting disinformation.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
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Made in us
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Angmar

Top 'o the Mornin' to ya Mannahnin! And, thank ye' fer doin' somethin' about that wee imp.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Mannahnin nice find on page 86. My store has been doing this wrong for a long time.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Anderton, Borys posted the reference to page 86 over 30 hours ago, and you posted about five times after that contradicting him. You need to take more time reading and spend less time posting.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Posted By CaptAnderton on 03/17/2006 9:53 AM
Mannahnin nice find on page 86. My store has been doing this wrong for a long time.


With you there offering your expertise? I find that hard to believe!!!

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Nope I like my random acts of kindness.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Whorelando, FL

Can this thread die now? It is so senseless...hehe. Capt K

   
Made in us
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Longtime Dakkanaut







By the way...welcome back, Ragnar...

"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
 
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