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I'm contemplating building a Valhallan force spiced up with various 'Heroic-scale' WWII Soviet minis, such as the Warlord Games medic and the Anti-Materiel "weird war" snipers made by another company (whose name I can't remember at the moment). I might even use WWII Soviet minis, with some mods (such as GW weapons), for the entire force.

My question is - how effective are IG SWS (or CCS) snipers and medipacks?

golan2072 wrote:
I'm contemplating building a Valhallan force spiced up with various 'Heroic-scale' WWII Soviet minis, such as the Warlord Games medic and the Anti-Materiel "weird war" snipers made by another company (whose name I can't remember at the moment). I might even use WWII Soviet minis, with some mods (such as GW weapons), for the entire force.

My question is - how effective are IG SWS (or CCS) snipers and medipacks?

SWS snipers are horrible. Not nearly enough shots to get the job done.

-Matt

And CCS snipers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, how effective are Medipacks?

As far as snipers go, I find ratlings are the only way to get good mileage out of the rifles. Stealth, infiltrate, BS4 and the fact that they all have a rifle makes them the best way to lay down sniper fire. Stick them on top of a ruin and hope for 6's.

You could ostensibly use russian sniper models for counts-as ratlings. I'd be okay with it.

Babel_Triumphant wrote:
You could ostensibly use russian sniper models for counts-as ratlings. I'd be okay with it.

Hmmm... I'll try to convince the local community to accept that...

Now, what do you think about medipacks?

golan2072 wrote:
Now, what do you think about medipacks?

It's way overpriced for what it does and even worse, it takes up a special weapon slot. I have got good use out of it a time or two but more often than not if someone is shooting at my CCS having FNP 5+ isn't enough to save them.

If it would've been cheaper and available to infantry squads (or cost as in the book, available to PCS's and affect the whole platoon), it would've been much better.

Medipack was useful in 5th for combat CCS (Straken-star), but in 6th it just took too many hits and is pretty obsolete now. Melee took a hit, and the inclusion of challenges made combat CCS's pretty invalid. The way Straken worked best before was hiding him behind 5-7 mooks because he wasnt an IC. Now he'll just get punked in a challenge. FNP from 4+ to 5+ is just the final nail.

Both are pretty pathetic.

30 points! For FNP on a unit which easily gets doubled out by most things and takes up a precious special weapon slot.

Snipers are terrible. The damage potential looks cool, but it's so rare that's it's not worth it. If I have 5pts lying around in a static CCS used for orders (which I rarely take now) I'll throw a sniper on there, but generally 5pts could be better spent elsewhere.

30 points for FNP which is canceled out by Str 6+ shots (which is, a lot of things)? Yeahhh no....

Snipers? Yeah the only way to make them worth it is in large amounts. And that requires a lot of slots, and those are slots that could be used for better weapons like more melta/plasma

Fun fact, if you are doing valhallans then this could be usefull:
http://www.pig-iron-productions.com/hd11-kolony-militia-winter-head-sprues-p-18.html

I'll be no help with snipers, never used them. Medi packs can be usefull if you have the points to spend. They sure give a lot more survivability to them but it's a lot of points...

Medipacks do work in fun games if you really, really want to build an IG deathstar with Straken, Eviscerator Priest(s), flamers/meltas etc. Otherwise I agree that they're too expensive. The changes to FNP have really hurt an upgrade that was already teetering on the edge in terms of cost efficiency. Just don't use them competitively, I still have a lot of bitterness and a wounded pride from trying just that.

Snipers depend on too many dice rolls to be effective. If you're going to hurt something worthwhile, you need to rend, and you rarely get enough rends to put out a lot of damage. Precision shots are good if you're up against an army that relies on special/heavy weapons on non-characters since you can snipe them without LOS, but ultimately too situational to be worthwhile. I regretted gluing the sniper rifles on each and every one of my sniper models, and finally cut off the scopes and barrel extensions to turn them into lasgun-wielding (!) Guardsmen.

Medpacks are costy, but can always offer some degree of survivability to your CCS.

I use one in a support CCS, only because it looked nice back in 5th, now, less so.
and 30pts is alot to fork out for that

 Griddlelol wrote:
Both are pretty pathetic.

30 points! For FNP on a unit which easily gets doubled out by most things and takes up a precious special weapon slot.

Snipers are terrible. The damage potential looks cool, but it's so rare that's it's not worth it. If I have 5pts lying around in a static CCS used for orders (which I rarely take now) I'll throw a sniper on there, but generally 5pts could be better spent elsewhere.

This is the only time a sniper rifle is okay. If you have a foot CCS, you probably have a regimental standard, and probably a heavy weapon like an autocannon or lascannon. If you just cant spend 5 points, a sniper is a decent option for the 4th dude, but only if you just cant spend those points elsewhere...

Medics are absolutely awful. 30 points to make 5-8 T3 models have FNP? With only a 5+ save base? No thanks. You could get two plasma guns or three melta guns for the price of the medic.

Im doing the same with my Tallarn force only using the FW models id just use em as counts as ratlings

snipers are a cheap points filler for CCSs, and not, strictly speaking, the worst way to throw away 5 or 10 points when you're done list building. That said, you're likely going to take a standard, and a lascannon does wonders in a CCS, which will limit your slots for snipers. I could perhaps see a 4x sniper PCS, but I wouldn't bother with sniper SWSs, really. Just not enough firepower there. If you really want a lot of snipers, consider taking a 3x sniper+lascannon vet squad with camo cloaks as an objective babysitter.

As for medipacks, I probably wouldn't bother either. For a choppy CCS, they can be sort of nice, but outside of this role, they're not doing much. Plus, those 30 points could be spent on a regimental adviser, which will probably make that CCS more useful than an FNP guy.

Even with a spare couple of slots and handful of points, I'd rather give my CCS a flamer than a sniper rifle. I can't think of any occasion where I'd want snipers in a guard army.

If you really want to run snipers, you could try counts-as Eldar Ranger allies. Those guys can do sniping properly, and have the capacity to stick around a lot longer than anything on foot in the guard 'dex.

,Ratlings can do well if the army has a lord commissar, I wouldn't buy one to field ratlings but I would seriously consider ratlings if I have a lord commissar.

Ratlings are also a good deal if allied with eldar, they can become pretty dangerous if shooting at a doomed unit, and on point for dakka ratio they outperform rangers and pathfinders.

If we're allowed to bring Doom into it then FRFSRF lasguns will beat snipers.

 BryllCream wrote:
If we're allowed to bring Doom into it then FRFSRF lasguns will beat snipers.

Range, rending, and they are not mutually exclusive. Eldar players are happy to point out every failed wound on the 1st roll is an extra chance for a rend on the 2nd. Frfsrf the flashlights, then start dumping sniper hits on the unit.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
If we're allowed to bring Doom into it then FRFSRF lasguns will beat snipers.

Range, rending, and they are not mutually exclusive. Eldar players are happy to point out every failed wound on the 1st roll is an extra chance for a rend on the 2nd. Frfsrf the flashlights, then start dumping sniper hits on the unit.

Chance for a rend goes from 1/6 to 2/9.
30 lasgun shots with doom gets ~3 wounds vs MEQ. 10 ratlings will get 1.3 + 2.2 rends. So they just sneak ahead, assuming no cover. And this is for a unit that is less durable than basic guardsmen.

So they just manage to beat a unit half their cost. I really don't see what role they're expected to perform. They lack the dakka to threaten infantry, and aren't reliable enough to take out characters or special weapons.

 BryllCream wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
If we're allowed to bring Doom into it then FRFSRF lasguns will beat snipers.

Range, rending, and they are not mutually exclusive. Eldar players are happy to point out every failed wound on the 1st roll is an extra chance for a rend on the 2nd. Frfsrf the flashlights, then start dumping sniper hits on the unit.

Chance for a rend goes from 1/6 to 2/9.
30 lasgun shots with doom gets ~3 wounds vs MEQ. 10 ratlings will get 1.3 + 2.2 rends. So they just sneak ahead, assuming no cover. And this is for a unit that is less durable than basic guardsmen.

So they just manage to beat a unit half their cost. I really don't see what role they're expected to perform. They lack the dakka to threaten infantry, and aren't reliable enough to take out characters or special weapons.

36" to a 12" range, only so many guardsmen will be under orders, and only so many guardsmen are going to be in range. Also instead of 1 squad of 10 say its 3,3, and 4 to create 2 or 3 pinning checks.

If you are thinking of taking snipers to wrack up a kill count, don't take them, you will be disappointed.
If you want snipers to snipe, then you want as many as possible. BS doesn't matter, volume of fire does. You need 6's to hit for the awesome effect. So, the cheapest more numerous sniper is best... Ratlings.

In cover, T2 with stealth is often better than T3 without stealth.
36" range gives more survival.
3x10 ratlings will single out and kill 5 non-character marines in 2 turns.
I don't know about you, but my guard really like picking off lascannons, meltaguns and flamers in the first 2 turns.

-Matt

See how cool your snipers and medics look? See how awesome they are? See how much character and coolness they add to your army?

Take that cool factor, and multiply it by two. That is how bad they are in game.

Yes, I have several medic and sniper models that look awesome.

In all but the friendliest games, they'll never see the table sadly :(

BryllCream wrote:Even with a spare couple of slots and handful of points, I'd rather give my CCS a flamer than a sniper rifle. I can't think of any occasion where I'd want snipers in a guard army.

Sniper rifles have the range to start shooting turn 1. Flamers, on the other hand, aren't that likely to even fire in any given game.

Sniper rifles also pair better with heavy weapons in a CCS.

HawaiiMatt wrote:BS doesn't matter, volume of fire does.

An interesting idea. If only there were some way to do this more seriously other than mass ratling and SWS spam.

Even if you did this, though, sniper rifles aren't very good against vehicles.

I will admit, there is one situation I can see myself taking snipers.

Armored company allied with regular IG. Take a commissar tank.

You would now have LD 10 ratlings. That would make them at least somewhat viable, and they'd help deal with MC's, so would be handy as that's something an armored company can struggle with.

Literally any other situation though I would have to pass on them.

I only take sniper rifles, medipacks, and rubbish options like them when my opponent is made of absolute suck.

In any real game; no.

Just no.

I run snipers in a Harker vet squad. Harker, 3 snipers, 1 missle infiltrate in cover and they harass a flank. They usually do some good, and are always a good distraction. Harker giving them stealth makes them hard to shift with out directing alot of fire into them, or sending a assault unit in after them. Both option help take heat off of my gun line.

 Salted Diamond wrote:
I run snipers in a Harker vet squad. Harker, 3 snipers, 1 missle infiltrate in cover and they harass a flank. They usually do some good, and are always a good distraction. Harker giving them stealth makes them hard to shift with out directing alot of fire into them, or sending a assault unit in after them. Both option help take heat off of my gun line.

Except there are better weapons.

I could have just as easily said

I run grenade launchers in a Harker vet squad. Harker, 3 snipers, 1 missle infiltrate in cover and they harass a flank. They usually do some good, and are always a good distraction. Harker giving them stealth makes them hard to shift with out directing alot of fire into them, or sending a assault unit in after them. Both option help take heat off of my gun line.

and none of the facts you listed would change.

If you're dropping a harkerstar, you should bring something with some reliable killing power.

Plasma and another bolter.

Anti-infantry will be covered, rather than your odd mish-mash of weapons.

 TheCaptain wrote:
If you're dropping a harkerstar, you should bring something with some reliable killing power.

Plasma and another bolter.

Anti-infantry will be covered, rather than your odd mish-mash of weapons.

I'm really curious... Why another bolter? You can get an Autocannon for the same price.