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hey dakkadakka-ers,

I've been playing vanilla marines for quite a while without having given them real fluff(hell, my chapter doesn't even have a real name)

for now, I call them the templar guard because of the black templar alike color scheme and I wanted to include Shrike when fleet was good(in 5th)

Recently I saw some deathwatch mini's and I decided to like them - big times. but when I started to look up some fluff about these in my eyes very bad-ass semi-inquisitory guys, I was dissapointed. REALLY is that it? killing xenos like all the normal chapters? I thought you were a group of elite guys doing inquisition stuff - without the talking part, just shoot em up -

now I am wondering if there does exist some kind of elite chapter that answers my feelings, some elite space marines(who are elites already i know). no grey knights, they are mainstream elites. what I am looking for is some unknown group perhaps not even space marines, but higher level, like the custodes. the thing is that I like power armour and all but I don't like space marines - they are too standard(even GK)

now, as I play vanilla marines for quite some time, it is hard to switch codex, but perhaps I'll think about it(like running my standard list but with BA codex)

now call me hipster or whatever, but does anyone know a group of power armoured guys that would suit me and what codex would fit best?

Humey

Nope, there are no super elite space marines who are even more elite than grey knights who are too mainstream elite.

There are custodes, and if you want to use them then you are pretty much limited to the GK codex in my opinion since they all have power weapons from what I can remember, and the only book you can do that in is the GK one (I know they are force, but it is closer than a chainsword/knife). But apart from then there are no canon higher super special things. But you can always make up your own.

And just so you know, I don't know what fluff you were reading, but deathwatch don't 'just kill some xenos like regular marines'. They specialize the hell out of that and are elites in their field of alien-killering, not just regular marines who kill xenos

"I thought you were a group of elite guys doing inquisition stuff - without the talking part, just shoot em up - ". That is what they do though. Well, kind of. In the olden days I think they were basically the strong arm of the Ordo Xenos, I think FFG has tweaked that in their stuff so they are more independent, but they are still badass marines with inquisition ties.

thanks for the quick reply,

I have considered custodes but due to cost and much conversion work its not my thing, im more looking for an extra 'special feel'to my existing army and for that I am willing to paint some Deathwatch shoulder pads and other chapters pads on the other side(great concept, gives much more character to your models)

now to go on about Deathwatch, because I mght be mistaken, but they are specialised in killing xenos, that's what I can find about them. but in my eyes, everything that is non-human is xenos, so what's left for the 'normal' marines to kill then? I thought all marines were specialised in killing xenos as there isn't much else to kill, perhaps a little heretic here and there but hey, Inquisition needs victims too!

so what is it that makes the Deathwatch stand out so much? if anyone can find some fluff about them that makes me go WHOOHOO then all my marine will me Deathwatch painted in a sec. but now I see them as a bunch of renegades thinking they're better while basically being the same...

CONFUSED MIND IS CONFUSED AND CAPS LOCK OVERUSED BECAUSE IT RHYMES

bye.
Humey

An important thing to keep in mind these days is that there's now two versions of the Deathwatch around - and you as a fan need to pick one. Or, well, make up your own, possibly using both official variants as inspiration.

GW's original Deathwatch is small elite Kill-Teams of select Space Marines specialised in fighting aliens and recruited from almost all Chapters (with a preference for Codex Chapters), operating under Inquisitorial authority and being dispatched all across the galaxy to perform high-risk-low-profile ops. The team is frequently led by an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos, otherwise the teamleader is a Deathwatch Captain or, sometimes, a Deathwatch Librarian. Veteran Deathwatch Marines would sometimes also lead Ordo Xenos Kill-Teams composed of normal humans, or be employed in the retinue of an Inquisitor. They used to have their own Chapter Approved rules from a White Dwarf (see here), but nowadays you can use Codex:SM Sternguard to replicate their style and add them as a specialist add-on to an existing army.
Here is an online copy of an Index Astartes article from WD #259 that has some more fluff on them, and GW's Inquisitor RPG (downloadable on GW's main website under "Specialist Games") has some more snippets on their background as well.

Then, there is FFG's Deathwatch. In this RPG, the entire group was basically inflated and detached from the Inquisition, no longer being the Ordo Xenos' household military but now being just some sort of independent ally left to govern itself. They received their own outposts and star bases, field their own armoured formations and even have their own battle-barges. Much more of a military force like a regular Space Marine Chapter than the original Deathwatch, or rather even more dangerous thanks to owning robotic "kill-ships" capable of entering a system under stealth and delivering Exterminatus to a world targeted for destruction. The internal hierarchy has been mixed up as well, with Deathwatch Captains now being base commanders, and team leadership in the field being a merry-go-round between the dispatched operatives (obviously to allow the P&P players more freedom in deciding who gets to lead them). FFG's DW Marines are also much less specialised, essentially fielding anything that a normal Chapter has access to, and often fighting against non-xenos as well when the opportunity presents itself.

Both versions are official. Since there is no hard canon in 40k, it's up to you to decide what to roll with.

The DW has potential, so if you go for it, enjoy! Games Workshop also offers conversion packs in their online shop, but I suppose you already saw those. Anyways, have fun!

Deathwatch are the military arm of the part of the inquisition that deal with aliens. A chapter will donate 1 or 2 of its best marines to serve in the deathwatch for a certain ammount of time. (Could be 1 mission or several years)

The deathwatch operate in small teams, often a single squad will be present.

They specalise in precision strikes, e.g boarding enemy ships, assassinating enemy warlords.
Also they will have the best equipment possible, special weapons and such.

Because they operate in small numbers you cant really represent a whole army with them. I find they are best used as a sternguard (veteran space marine shooters) squad.
Paint them black and leave 1 shoulder pad in the colour of their own chapter.

"so what is it that makes the Deathwatch stand out so much? if anyone can find some fluff about them that makes me go WHOOHOO then all my marine will me Deathwatch painted in a sec. but now I see them as a bunch of renegades thinking they're better while basically being the same... "

I don't even need to use words. If this guy doesn't want to make you collect deathwatch (albiet at 28mm scale), then nothing will!



But more seriously, other marines are specialised at fighting xenos to one extent, but nothing like the deathwatch. That is almost like saying 'calgar killed a daemon therefore why are grey knights so special'. A wee bit of hyperbole, but if it helps illustrate the point...

Cultiststeve wrote:Because they operate in small numbers you cant really represent a whole army with them.

I much prefer the original Deathwatch myself, but FFG's version may be an alternative if he wants to do an entire DW army. Regardless of my own preferences, I have seen some amazing photos of a DW army that included a Dread, Land Speeders, etc ...
I think it was in that huge close-up photo thread here on dakka.

So what makes them special : best marines from several chapters, operate in small squads and access to better equipment.


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 Lynata wrote:

Cultiststeve wrote:Because they operate in small numbers you cant really represent a whole army with them.

I much prefer the original Deathwatch myself, but FFG's version may be an alternative if he wants to do an entire DW army. Regardless of my own preferences, I have seen some amazing photos of a DW army that included a Dread, Land Speeders, etc ...
I think it was in that huge close-up photo thread here on dakka.

Oh no doubt it would be cool and I dont really know about FFG.
But the current fluff doesn't really allow for a whole army of them.

alright alright I'm getting somewhere..

but still im wondering what the difference is between the xenos that everyone kills and the xenos that DW is specialised in?

the elite alike feel to it is indeed what I like, but that is also why I want an answer to this question, because as I see them now they aren't elite.
they are an group of guys collected from several chapters that kill xenos in small attack forced. MKAY, some bad-ass space marines, doing standard space marine work... WHY NOT give them bad-ass work to do?

I like the idea of a army that is like DW the military arm of for example the Inquisition, but they have to have something more to stand aside from other SM chapters, or I could go and play GK or something like that...

Appreciate the help, thanks very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Humey

That's the tricky thing - both their fluff is "current", it depends on whether you're looking at GW's or FFG's books.

The most appealing thing of the Deathwatch is, imho, that they're small teams of crack commandos blowing up xenos when/where nobody expects it. That's a huge difference from how you usually see Space Marines operate. Obviously, this is much more practicable in small-scale encounters like they happen in RPGs (and indeed, the Deathwatch was originally invented for GW's "Inquisitor" game, only receiving TT rules later on) - but they work just as well as an add-on to existing armies, lending some unique style to your existing force of Marines.

You could even be able to pull them off for other armies using ally rules, though that may not be as clean/elegant.

HumeyKillar wrote:but still im wondering what the difference is between the xenos that everyone kills and the xenos that DW is specialised in?

There is no difference between the xenos - the difference is in how the Deathwatch approaches them. What they target, and how they destroy it. Unlike regular Marine Chapters, the Deathwatch is often also used to secure alien artifacts for the Inquisition, capture enemy leaders for interrogation, and so on. You get the Space Marines' combat prowess combined with Inquisitorial finesse!

HumeyKillar wrote:they are an group of guys collected from several chapters that kill xenos in small attack forced. MKAY, some bad-ass space marines, doing standard space marine work... WHY NOT give them bad-ass work to do?

Well, having to work with much less force than is usual for a Space Marine insertion (orbital bombardment, drop pods, lots of boom), means that they will have to rely much more on their skills and each individual pulling their part than a normal Chapter. This is pretty badass in itself. Imagine the Dirty Dozen in power armour, and the Nazis are Orks or Tau or whatever. The Deathwatch is to the Ordo Xenos what Storm Troopers are to the Imperial Guard. It's just that they focus on xenos, because that's the mission of their boss. Just like the Grey Knights focus on fighting daemons because of the Ordo Malleus.

 HumeyKillar wrote:

I like the idea of a army that is like DW the military arm of for example the Inquisition, but they have to have something more to stand aside from other SM chapters, or I could go and play GK or something like that...

They're the best marines from other Chapters. They're not just some random schmucks, they're the elite. Sternguard, Vanguard, Sword Brethren, Wolf Guard, that kind of stuff.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:They're the best marines from other Chapters. They're not just some random schmucks, they're the elite.

Unless you go with that one Black Library novel, where apparently they are what the Chapter Masters don't want to have around anymore, using the Deathwatch as a dumping ground for troublemakers.

Gotta love the level of consistency in this IP...

But really, elite or not isn't even what the Deathwatch should be about, just like the Grey Knights. Isn't being a Space Marine already enough to cover that; do we really need this "+1" stuff? The Deathwatch fluff has so much more to offer. Imho, it's their style and diversity that should make them intrigueing.

I like the deathwatch using sternguard. They are all veterans, have access to the special ammo that was the foundation of the gw rules for them, and get good options with Pedro acting as a death watch captain and librarian for back up. The only difficulty it's what to use for troops to fit the theme. I like 2 scout squads since the stern guard are scoring, and you can model the scouts like servitors if you like. In addition, the scout heavy bolters blast round also started as a deathwatch rule, adding more canon reasons to run scouts as your troop choice.

Plus, with the ally rules you can still get an inquisitor, henchmen, an assassian, ect, to represent ordo Xenos. Depending on if you take coteaz or not, you may need 1 strike or terminator squad as a troop but their addition is not major and can be fluffed as either a gk detachment or deathwatch librarian psyker retinue since they are known to use psykers a lot.

Deathwatch are an organization of Space Marines loaned on an individual basis to the Ordo Xenos by various Chapters.

The thing with Deathwatch is they've never been depicted as fielding large armies, they usually show up with one squad and perform sneaky operations and blow things up; I think the easiest and best way to deploy them now is by taking a Sternguard squad in a vanilla Space Marine army as an allied unit.

 HumeyKillar wrote:
now to go on about Deathwatch, because I mght be mistaken, but they are specialised in killing xenos, that's what I can find about them. but in my eyes, everything that is non-human is xenos, so what's left for the 'normal' marines to kill then? I thought all marines were specialised in killing xenos as there isn't much else to kill, perhaps a little heretic here and there but hey, Inquisition needs victims too!

The Deathwatch work very closely with the Inquisition. Their job is not to kill the xenos, but to control the xenos. Where another Chapter might launch a holy Crusade to purge a planet of aliens, the Deathwatch and Inquisition will try to stop the Xenos from ever getting to that planet in the first place. They capture and interrogate, they launch surgical strikes behind enemy lines to sabotage fleets or troop movements. They hunt alien relics, alien beasts. It's not just about being good at killing stuff, it's about the intelligence side of things. They are the muscle to back up the Ordo Xenos.

For instance, Inquisitor Kryptman devised a plan to slow or halt the Tyranid invasions. They deduced that Genestealer cults were the beacons that steered the Tyranid fleets. So they captured a good number of them (how? Sounds like a job for the Deathwatch) and then seeded them into an Ork empire (again, sounds like a job for the Deathwatch. Delivering a precious cargo deep into enemy territory) which then caused the Tyranids to veer away from human space and into the Ork territory.


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 Lynata wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:They're the best marines from other Chapters. They're not just some random schmucks, they're the elite.

Unless you go with that one Black Library novel, where apparently they are what the Chapter Masters don't want to have around anymore, using the Deathwatch as a dumping ground for troublemakers.

Gotta love the level of consistency in this IP...

But really, elite or not isn't even what the Deathwatch should be about, just like the Grey Knights. Isn't being a Space Marine already enough to cover that; do we really need this "+1" stuff? The Deathwatch fluff has so much more to offer. Imho, it's their style and diversity that should make them intrigueing.

I wouldn't consider that an example of inconsistency in the background, unless it was the same Chapter sending their best in one source, then sending trouble makers in the other. I'm sure across a thousand Chapters there are many different opinions on who should get sent to the Deathwatch. Some see it as an example to prove their worth, only sending the best. Others see it as an opportunity to rid themselves of trouble makers. Kind of like Imperial Guard tithes. Some planets only send the best of their PDF, others just round up hive scum and criminals.

Kaldor wrote:I wouldn't consider that an example of inconsistency in the background, unless it was the same Chapter sending their best in one source, then sending trouble makers in the other. I'm sure across a thousand Chapters there are many different opinions on who should get sent to the Deathwatch. Some see it as an example to prove their worth, only sending the best. Others see it as an opportunity to rid themselves of trouble makers. Kind of like Imperial Guard tithes. Some planets only send the best of their PDF, others just round up hive scum and criminals.

Oh yeah, I actually mentioned exactly this thought in another thread where someone brought this up in the first place. In that case you'd end up with a Deathwatch that has not only the best ... but given the Ordo Xenos' influence, I would presume that the standards are still quite high and those who don't manage to meet them are simply sent back in disgrace.

Apologies for that little stab at potential novel influence on player perception. Damn, now you've gone and ruined my scheme!

But here is the thread with the awesome Deathwatch mini photos I mentioned earlier. I've just seen it get a push again, so I thought why not share here, given that I already mentioned it.

Keep in mind that not all chapters specialize in killing Xenos. They also have to deal with traitors trying to break off their own little section of the imperium. There is also the Daemons and Traitor legions that everybody has to deal with.

So the normal order of events in the Imperium response chain is:
1 Threat detected? > Daemons? > Grey Knights
2 Threat detected? > Xenos? > Deathwatch
3 Threat Not Detected > LOTS of IG die > Space Marines Surgical Strike > IG cleans up mess (This tree tends to branch out)

Notice though the the space marines tend to be reactionary as they are super small and have to deal with all sorts of threats throughout the imperium.

okay, I had a night of thinking about it, and.....

I'm gonna do it!

now, because I liked the idea of giving character to my models, I want no shoulderpad to be the same(on one side)
therefore I ask your help:
submit a pic of your chapter's color scheme(and perhaps some background to 'earn' a special place)
and I'll try and get them all in my army(need to get about 60 different pads)

so please help, I'd like to see this work, and I'll be painting them all Deathwatch!

places in my ranks:

tacticals

14 tactical marines w/bolters
1 flamer,
1 melta,
2 missile launchers
sargeant plasma pistol/stormbolter
sargeant plasma pistol/powerfist

scouts

telion (he'll be an ultrasmurf)
4 snipers
1 missile launcher
1 heavy bolter
4 bolters
4 pistol/cc weapon

other

two razorbacks (twinlascannon and twin assaultcannon)

5 LC terminators
5 TH/SS terminators
5 shooty terminators (dark vengeance kit)

dakkadread (las/missile)

about 7 scout bikes (dont use them often)

attack bike

space marine bikes(dark vengeance kit)

landspeeder storm

thunderfire cannon

librarian (terminator armour/SS)

chapter master/captain on bike (stormbolter/power sword)



so, you can just send me a picture, then it'll most likely end up on a standard scout/marine, or you can send me some fluff and opt for a more special place...
I'd love to see this work, and one day I'll have the DakkaDeathwatch united

Humey

ps: I'll post a new thread with this on my P/M blog, so I can upload my Wips to you

Perhaps the last remnant of the loyalists from the Thousands Sons legion, this splinter has survived the millennium by keeping their identity hidden. So well have they hidden it that they themselves are beginning to forget, with only the inner echelons of the Chapters Librarium now remembering. They commonly go by the adopted name of Blood Raven.

ansacs wrote:So the normal order of events in the Imperium response chain is:
1 Threat detected? > Daemons? > Grey Knights
2 Threat detected? > Xenos? > Deathwatch
3 Threat Not Detected > LOTS of IG die > Space Marines Surgical Strike > IG cleans up mess

For daemons that may be right, but given how many xenos there are I doubt that the Ordo Xenos dispatches the Deathwatch on all of those occasions. It also doesn't fly with what we get from events in the fluff, if one were to go by GW's material.
Instead, I think the DW is dispatched when a threat is not detected, but something "feels wrong" and the Inquisition suspects xenos influence. Unless you're going by FFG's stuff, the Deathwatch isn't an entire branch of the Imperial armed forces, it's a small group of specialists who can only pull off so many missions throughout the galaxy, and their small size prohibits engagements with larger enemy forces - unless they work in cooperation with other Imperial troops, essentially lending their expertise and unique capabilities to an army of Guardsmen or regular Space Marines. The Force Disposition Chart for the Third War for Armageddon, for example, showed a pair of Ordo Xenos Kill-Teams operating "in-between" the huge regiments of the IG, the many Astartes Chapters and the two Battle Sister convents, which may well have been Deathwatch, or contained individual Deathwatch Marines.

Missions don't include "attack the xenos army here". That's stuff for the regular Space Marines or the Guard. Instead, they get to pull assignments like "investigate reports of Genestealer activities in this Hive", "capture that Tau Ethereal for interrogation", "rescue Inquisitor X from the clutches of the Eldar", "sabotage this colony's power reactor and cause it to overload", "retrieve an Eldar artifact we located on a planet full of Orks and kill all IG that have been in contact with it" ... that sorta stuff. Friggin' Black Ops.

HumeyKillar wrote:so please help, I'd like to see this work, and I'll be painting them all Deathwatch!

I guess that means FFG's Deathwatch rather than GW's, then.

Ah well, why not - it's your army, and the important thing is that you need to have fun with it.

HumeyKillar wrote:submit a pic of your chapter's color scheme(and perhaps some background to 'earn' a special place) and I'll try and get them all in my army

I don't have a Marine army myself, but I always liked the Celestial Lions. They strike me to be the archetypical tragical knights, who fall to treachery due to no fault but their own flawless honour...
Their colour scheme and background fluff can be found on this backup of GW's original Armageddon 3 campaign website. Most interestingly, the Chapter's final fate allows for a small few survivors to be inducted into the Deathwatch (possibly being ordered to "suspend" their vows to die on Armageddon) - obviously with Orks as their preferred enemy. That they now work for the organisation that engineered their Chapter's downfall could be delicious irony - or perhaps another Inquisitor took pity on how a colleague treated them, and opted to save the remnants?

@still standing what is the name of your chapter?

and for others, I'd like it if you could post your shoulderpad-designs on my P/M blog

thanks!

69/73 free pads left over


Automatically Appended Next Post:
68/73 thanks Lynata!

 HumeyKillar wrote:
@still standing what is the name of your chapter?

That would be The Thousand Sons, or if you want a little more up to date The Blood Ravens.

 Lynata wrote:
Missions don't include "attack the xenos army here". That's stuff for the regular Space Marines or the Guard. Instead, they get to pull assignments like "investigate reports of Genestealer activities in this Hive", "capture that Tau Ethereal for interrogation", "rescue Inquisitor X from the clutches of the Eldar", "sabotage this colony's power reactor and cause it to overload", "retrieve an Eldar artifact we located on a planet full of Orks and kill all IG that have been in contact with it" ... that sorta stuff. Friggin' Black Ops.

Aye, things like this. Many marine Chapters are specialized in fighting aliens in some way but Deathwatch does it in personal small-unit actions. Where say Crimson Fists hate Orks and know how to fight them on a large scale the Deathwatch knows how to get through Ork territory, how to challenge a Nob to demoralize his orksies and how to sneak into an Ork base for some critical sabotage of the fungus-gas vats that will turn into a pretty explosion within minutes.

Perfect example of what I mean. Thank you.