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My guard haven't seen the table even once in V4. So here's something I'm thinking of fielding. The traits are: Abhumans, slave levies, conscripts and rough riders.

Jr Officer, honorifica, vet with standard, iron discipline

Cannoness with the book (makes any unit in 6" an unmodified LD10)

Edit: I forgot the 2 heavy bolter squads.

Platoon 1:
command squad with meltagun (I can drop these guys)
3 squads with las/plas and slave levies

Platoon 2:
command squad with meltagun (I can drop these guys)
2 squads with ML/plas and slave levies

30 conscripts

6 seraphim with flamers, vet ss and power weapon

2X8 rough riders with lances

2 bassies with indirect

demolisher with las/plas and searchlight.

This should be brutal on the pod armies I'm expecting to start to dominate, since the whole thing is LD10, even against fear, and I can build a large buffer zone with the conscripts if I don't want them dropping near me. And all my troops move and shoot, and have an extra 4+ save.

It's got 3 faith points, which should be more than enough to keep the seraphim alive long enough to jump out (leaving a unit all scrummed in nice and close for my pie plates).

Anyway, so what's going to own this? If you were building your list to specifically take this on, what would you take?

Umnn...Alaitoc with 6+ rolls on the disruption chart and hope for omega?

Crazy choppy footslogging Black Templar mobs of doom?

I like the list and it would be both dead hard and dead killy.

Mauleed, i remember to you that "conscript platoons" are restricted troops .

Yup, and so are rough riders. Hmmmm.

No =I= with Mystics? No =I= with a psychic hood?

The former is only really of use if Drop Pods are treated like Deep Strike (which they are at Adepticon, which is where my mind is already). The Ld 10, untargetable Cannoness bubble can help quite a bit, particularly with a starfish-like dispersal of units.

You're a little light on actual firepower, but a little bit more mobile than a truly static list.

Problematic units: Land Speeders. You have no real good anti-landspeeder weapons (read: autocannons/multilasers), which means you're shooting 1-shot BS3 heavies at them, to try and bring them down. You won't be reliably killing them that way, and they'll eat your tanks quickly as a result. Lose the MLs, grab some autocannons?

I must say, you chicago types making up the rules as you go is a big negative to coming out and visiting you.

Interesting thoughts on land speeders. Right now they have to get within 24" to use the assault cannon, which means I'm getting plasma and the heavy weapon back at them. So it's almost twice as effective as you're giving it credit for.

And I forgot to list 2 heavy bolter squads, so it's slightly more shooty than originally thought.

But I can't see them getting at the vehicles. I've got 130 model. It won't be hard to ensure that no path to the vehicles exists without suffering all my guns.

I'd like to have a hood in here, but I don't know where I'd find the points. Can I have DH and WH units attached? I think I'd trade a unit of heavy bolters for a single inquisitor with psycannon and hood.

Ed, I'm a California type (now).

The rules don't seem to be all that clear on having multiple Ordos as allies. DH says no, WH says yes. I'd wait for a FAQ.

The inclusion of several HB squads helps quite a bit (I'd still rather have ACs, myself). And yes, you've got lots of models. Some of them, though, you're not going to want to expose - RRs & Seraphim don't want the attentions of Land Speeders, either. The Bassies probably won't be sitting out in the open (when possible), but unless you're willing to dedicate a large chunk of your infantry to stand around them, you can't stop a suicidal Landspeeder from getting back there, and Bassie side/rear armor is made of Kleenex-brand Facial Tissues.

Real question: do you think this will be any less boring to play than your old "stand and fire" gunline? You've added a hint of mobility, but by actually using the movement phase, you've slowed the game down even further.

I'd much rather have the autocannons too, but that's more points I'd need to find. But autocannons in the slave levies is an option.

I can't see speeders sticking around long against this list. Just too many guns. Every shooty squad can hurt them. And 30 conscripts can cover alot of ground, if I really want to keep the speeders from zooming to a certain area. And it's not like tornados are cheap. 3 tornados cost about the same as two bassies, and I think I can consistently work that trade.

I'm sure this will be a ton more fun than my old gunline version. I'm a very fast player, so I doubt I'll have trouble finishing games with this.

I see that your list is still using two more doctrines than allowed, even after your post edition¿?, so, your list is still illegal.

Aren´t you going to rewrite it for a proper "legal list" comment? 

Done.

Making up rules? AWC borrowed that ruling from GW. So it isn't made up by them...just defending the peeps in the Midwest. As for an army that can take that down. I think eldar would be chewing on that. The slave levy is a decent ability. But the eldar blow that away since the levies toughness I think is still only 3. So the amount of str 6 is going to put down those models quickly. I think that an EC list would hurt them too. They could easily trade the shots and move just as much as you without sacrificing shooting. Even with a Ld of ten, the amount of pin tests you would be taking could end up spannering your plans. How do you propose keeping all those units within 6" of the canoness? Interesting list. Do you have levie models built for this list? I'd be curious to see your conversions. Capt K

Saying something is legal that has no rule coresponding to it is certainly making things up. And there is certainly no rule that says mystics get free shots at pods. But we're splitting hairs. They like to follow quasi-rules and I like to only follow actual rules.

I'm not saying their outlook is "bad", I'm simply saying I'm not fond of it, and having to come out and figure out all of their house rules is not appealing and discourages me from making the trip. Invariably, there's going to be a point where I'm told on turn 4 that it's a 5 turn game (actually happened to me out here). I'm just not fond of suprises.

If I convert this, the levies will actually be the "robot corps" of my Ultramar PDF (look me up on CMON if you haven't seen them). So I'll just convert the heavy/special weapons to be robots.

Explain more about how eldar and EC own this? I'm not sure I get it. Eldar do have the perfect guns, but not enough shots in a competitive list for me to care, and EC don't have the right guns. I get my feel no pain against almost everything they get special.

I think that pod armies still are a hard perspective for your list, Mauleed.

 Your leadership bubble is too small for the amount of troops that you have, and with only an officer with ID things can go worse.

Your wall of recruits tactic can play against you most of the time, limiting the mobility of your countercharge units and tanks. If we added to this the classic "barrier of pods" tactic, the result will be that the enemy can pick specific parts of your army and give you a beat in close combat with little chance of response for your part, IMHO.

 

I don't think it's going to be hard to have LD10 on everyone, particularly when I know I'm facing pods. He only needs to be within 6" of one model in each unit. Think spokes of a wheel or a starfish.

The conscript buffer should make the the wall of pods tactic fairly ineffective. I can be sure I push them back beyond 12" with them, and then the only thing to assault is the conscripts. Then I let them lose, test on their own LD and run. Then I shoot the snot out of whatever was fighting them. And I can repeat this with a bunch of LD7 troops squads if I like.

I'm not saying it's  a no brainer. I'm just saying the usual pod antics won't work here.

I can't see speeders sticking around long against this list. Just too many guns. Every shooty squad can hurt them. And 30 conscripts can cover alot of ground, if I really want to keep the speeders from zooming to a certain area. And it's not like tornados are cheap. 3 tornados cost about the same as two bassies, and I think I can consistently work that trade.

Given the loss of Drop Troops, you might reevaluate your platoon command squads.

The "just too many guns" line makes me chuckle a bit - you have fewer guns than many fully mechanized lists (5 heavies in squads, plus 6 in HB squads). You've got a lot of points sunk into counter-assault elements (170'ish in Rough Riders, a chunk of Seraphim, 120'ish in Conscripts), plus you've paying for the Cannonness leadership boost, and extra points for Slave Levies.

If I were to guess, I'd say that you were building a Guard list out of things your Drop Pods wouldn't want to see. So, we've got the always Ld 10, to resist FotD. We've got several units of RR's, to smack Termies as they land. We've got Conscripts (backed by Ld 10), to tarpit expensive assault characters. We've got Seraphim, to make life hard on non-assault drop pod squads.

What are you going to do against a pure gunline Guard army? They'll have twice your firepower, and a much better chance of silencing your tanks early.

Fully mechanized Guard, where they have more tanks than you have AT weapons? They equal your AT firepower, and have at least twice the anti-infantry weaponry, mounted on more mobile platforms.

How about a 'nid horde? Or Godzilla list? Not enough anti-infantry to stop the former, way too little anti-TMC to deal with the latter.

Break it out point-wise: how much of your army is spent on your core strength (guns), and how much on anti-worst case stuff (conscripts, RRs, Seraphim, Cannonness, Slave Levies). I think you're well outside the 80/20 mix I like to use, and a fair bit beyond the 70/30 mix your marines used to use.

Anyway, so what's going to own this? If you were building your list to specifically take this on, what would you take?

Sisters. Those bassies will have 2 turns of fire MAX before serahapim get them. Everything else dies to bolters or exorcists.

Heck I dont even have to be that mobile.


A hint: Jump pack on the cannoness to be a much better MOBILE LD10.

And I forgot to list 2 heavy bolter squads, so it's slightly more shooty than originally thought.

Consider autocannons instead. Almost as many shots, can hunt light vehicals.

Good stuff:

The platoon commands: what else should I give them? They suck with any option. At least this way I might metagun a rogue tank.

Vs. Gunline guard: I do two things they don't: I move and shoot and I have an extra 4+ save. So I use that to my advantage. Of course with my guns that won't work against infantry guard, but mechanized will evaporate quickly. I'm still getting my 4+ vs. most of the guns in a mechanized list.

Nid horde should be interesting. Again, my guardsmen are 50% more resilient than usual, so I may get some mileage there. But that should be a hard matchup. I don't think the godzilla list will be that bad. I should be dropping a TMC a turn easily with this list.

Sisters: Carmen, how are sisters a problem for this? I actually beat them in hth.

Drop the meltagun in your command squads and give ID to your officers. I think that´s the best use for the commands squads in your list. .

I don't have the slot for ID. It has to come off my command hq as well.

Sisters: Carmen, how are sisters a problem for this? I actually beat them in hth.

Why are sisters players letting you in combat? You should be mostly dead before then. Or reduced in number.

16+ man sister units kick out impressive fire vs basic guard.

drive by siters units dump out with flamers.

serpahim flame and assualt and H&R and moveon to your bassies or back line units.

Its fun to use the LD 10 bubble against you.

Posted By mauleed on 03/20/2006 8:10 AM

The traits are: Abhumans, slave levies, conscripts and rough riders.

Well, from what i see here, you still have one doctrine slot empty, so, you can purchase ID and give it to all your officers, right?

My assumption is that abhumands takes two on it's own. But that's just from memory.

And if it doesn't, I'll take drop troops.

Nope, abhumans takes only one slot, but is needed to "unlock" slave levies, so, in practice slave levies cost you two slots .

Well, i suppose that yes, thanks to the cannoness with the "book of unmodified leadership", drop troops will be more utile than ID in your army list.

Mauleed Wrote: Saying something is legal that has no rule coresponding to it is certainly making things up. And there is certainly no rule that says mystics get free shots at pods. But we're splitting hairs. They like to follow quasi-rules and I like to only follow actual rules. Capt K: They are going by Pete Haines' ruling from the sticky post on the EoT forums. It isn't officially FAQ'd, but it is as close as a ruling as you can get. Nothing really quasi about it. Infact, the people in my area play it the same way and I live in Florida now. So I guess many people have adopted that line of thought. Not just midwesterners. Mauleed Wrote: I'm not saying their outlook is "bad", I'm simply saying I'm not fond of it, and having to come out and figure out all of their house rules is not appealing and discourages me from making the trip. Invariably, there's going to be a point where I'm told on turn 4 that it's a 5 turn game (actually happened to me out here). I'm just not fond of suprises. Capt K: What other house rules are you referring to? I am not familiar with those. Mauleed Wrote: If I convert this, the levies will actually be the "robot corps" of my Ultramar PDF (look me up on CMON if you haven't seen them). So I'll just convert the heavy/special weapons to be robots. Capt K wrote: Cool. I'll check them out. Mauleed Wrote: Explain more about how eldar and EC own this? I'm not sure I get it. Eldar do have the perfect guns, but not enough shots in a competitive list for me to care, and EC don't have the right guns. I get my feel no pain against almost everything they get special. Capt K wrote: Eldar have access to CMT's which could make it tough, plus they have the means to out manuever you. With the CMT's you are going to have trouble locking horns with those units. You do have indirect, but not enough to have the player worry. It's even worse with Alaitoc. If they bounce your Canonese in reserve, your strategy isn't going to work as well. With EC they have the perfect guns. Sure you get the FNP against the most of their guns, but even with FNP can you really stand up to the firepower to a few 12 man squads with sonic blasters? That's 36 shots that hit on 3's wound on 3's plus the blastmasters. Not only that, but the Blastmasters are the the weapons that will be giving you fits. Havoc squads with 4 would be most annoying to you. Even with Ld. 10 they will be able to pin some units. Plus they can also match your move and shoot ability. They also have best daemons to punch through your lines. I think a well built EC list would give you a pretty tough match up. Just my take on it. Capt K

Poor Capt. K. Ambushed by the text editor.

I can't read that.

Good stuff:
The platoon commands: what else should I give them? They suck with any option. At least this way I might metagun a rogue tank.

Couple choices, really. You can:
a) give them a single heavy weapon, as your opponents SHOULD be killing your HB squads first, so they'll live a little longer;
b) give them nothing (in which case, condense your platoons into 1 and spend your points elsewhere);
c) keep them as they are, for the reason you provided; or
d) give them bunches of plasma guns (and medics, depending on your view of that argument), for that suicide-burst of S7 fire.

Vs. Gunline guard: I do two things they don't: I move and shoot and I have an extra 4+ save. So I use that to my advantage.

Granted, but you're paying a premium for very, very little mobility (d6" movement, or sit still in decent cover? Hmmm).

Of course with my guns that won't work against infantry guard, but mechanized will evaporate quickly. I'm still getting my 4+ vs. most of the guns in a mechanized list.

Multilasers = S6. Inferno Cannon = S6. Ordnance > S6. Most of the anti-infantry firepower will deny you your FnP (HBs don't, granted). And at your present AT gun count, you may be able to silence a single Chimera a turn (they won't be driving to you).

Nid horde should be interesting. Again, my guardsmen are 50% more resilient than usual, so I may get some mileage there. But that should be a hard matchup.

Depends on the Gaunts, I suppose - el cheapo ones aren't really much better than a Guardsman in HtH, once they get there. Survive the initial impact, toss in another squad or some conscripts, and you're okay (except for the LoS blockage). T4 gaunts are more difficult. I'd be wary of keeping your cannonness around, though - if she gets sucked into the fighting, you're going to lose your leadership edge.

I don't think the godzilla list will be that bad. I should be dropping a TMC a turn easily with this list.

You seem to count very heavily on your plasma guns, something I'm loathe to do. If you're trading fire with a TMC at greater than ~27" or so, your plasma isn't going to help.

follow quasi-rules and I like to only follow actual rules. Capt K: They are going by Pete Haines' ruling from the sticky post on the EoT forums. It isn't officially FAQ'd, but it is as close as a ruling as you can get. Nothing really quasi about it

Close only counts in horshoes, handgrenades and thermal nuclear devices.

"Almost offical" still isnt offical. Its rewarding lazy behavior on GW's part, actually.

Carmen has summed it up: the posts on the GW forum are not rules. They say so right there in the forum.

If you want to use them, knock your socks off. But don't kid yourself that you're following the rules. You aren't.