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Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

As an anecdote to this, salt being too aggressive to firearms, the FAMAS F2 designed for the Navy actually swapped a lot of metal parts for plastic ones to better resist salt induced corrosion.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
As an anecdote to this, salt being too aggressive to firearms, the FAMAS F2 designed for the Navy actually swapped a lot of metal parts for plastic ones to better resist salt induced corrosion.


Presumably the plastic parts were more fragile?

Corrosion works in strange ways, and it is dependent on local conditions. There are in fact functional firearms that have been salvaged of salt water, with the rifles of the U.S.S. Maine being an example. It just depends where and when.

The salt/fresh water thing works in weird ways. I've read that fresh water rots wood while salt water preserves it, and that sailing ships had to be 'rinsed' with salt water after rainfall. But at the same time, wood in fresh water can be remarkably well preserved. Many years ago Michigan passed a revised salvage law specifically because technology had reached a point where it was possible to salve logs from shipwrecks and river floats that happened a century ago. This was old growth timber, it had been packed down into the bottom, and was worth a fortune because of how rare such things are today.

The finish will also matter - "in the white" guns will suffer more quickly than ones that have been parkerized.

When I was a kid, I went on a tour of the salt mines beneath Detroit. Lots of perfectly preserved (but broken) equipment down there. I mean, salt is everywhere, but there's no moisture. They left the equipment where it was because it wasn't worth disassembling it and bringing it to the surface, so there was this museum of sorts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/09 15:27:43


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Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

I haven't used such FAMAS so I can't say if the plastic was fragile, but it held up better in the conditions it was used in, apprently.

That mine tour must be something impressive

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Salt by itself isn't a problem. Its the extra ions it creates in water.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

I'm no expert in navy stuff, so I unfortunately can't delve in too much details, but fact remains that they did decided to swap as many metal parts as possible on the navy FAMAS. If somebody has got any experience in the navy and would like to give me more insight or why the french navy made a dumb move if it is useless, I'll be glad to listen.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I mean, swapping parts out for plastic isn't dumb if your goal is to increase resistance to hostile environments. Its only dumb if you also compromise the integrity of the gun, and then its not the idea that is the problem.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I'm no expert in navy stuff, so I unfortunately can't delve in too much details, but fact remains that they did decided to swap as many metal parts as possible on the navy FAMAS. If somebody has got any experience in the navy and would like to give me more insight or why the french navy made a dumb move if it is useless, I'll be glad to listen.


My assumption is that the plastic resisted corrosion better but had some downside, such as a short service life. On or near a ship swapping them out frequently would not be a problem and their corrosion resistance would actually make them more reliable than otherwise longer-lived metal components.

Knowing a bit of France's position on the geopolitical stage, a desert deployment would not have the same risk profile - dust intrusion rather than rust is the main hazard, so plastic parts (which also might get soft in the heat) would not work.

Corrosive ammo creates salts as residue, and they have to be "boiled out" - flushed with hot water. It's a tribute to the discipline of British (and Commonwealth) troops that they were still using corrosive ammo in WW II and yet finding an Enfield with a shiny, nice bore is a non-event.

The bores on Mosins and Mausers, by contrast, are of more varying quality.

And the same is true of salt water, sweat, etc. It's not just exposure, it's the extent, duration and then other environmental factors. I think one of the reasons why people obsess about it is that safes, locked cases, etc. tend to be moisture traps. Unless you have some form of dessicant, they can be rust incubators.

I had a shotgun that I kept for years without any rust issues. I wiped it down after handling, but a bigger factor was the fact that it was in a very climate-controlled environment.

When it was in a 'natural' setting (no A/C), the same countermeasures failed because we had days where everything was dripping with humidity. Preserving its (damaged) finish then became a minor obsession, with frequent inspections and applications of rust inhibitors.

Another environmental change (A/C in the house) and it was a non-factor. I live in a fairly wet state, but have a whole house dehumidifier and if any of my guns lasted beyond their first outing (talk about an expensive hobby!), the chief issue is that the lubricant/protectant dries on them, so I need to be sure to give them fresh lubrication prior to use.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/03/11 23:12:46


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

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Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

I've had the issue with my mosin locked in the safe 3 weeks while I was partaking in manoeuvres. Nobody home took it out of the same and it had been pouring the better part of these last 2 weeks. When I came and checked the barrel, I swear I could have fainted. Repetead cleaning, shooting, cleaning, finally helped, but seeing the cases after being shot, the chamber definitely took some damage. Fortunately, it is located at the top of the cartridge neck so no overpressure.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
I've had the issue with my mosin locked in the safe 3 weeks while I was partaking in manoeuvres. Nobody home took it out of the same and it had been pouring the better part of these last 2 weeks. When I came and checked the barrel, I swear I could have fainted. Repetead cleaning, shooting, cleaning, finally helped, but seeing the cases after being shot, the chamber definitely took some damage. Fortunately, it is located at the top of the cartridge neck so no overpressure.


Yikes! That's awful!

There are dessicant packs you can buy that are reusable. It changes color when it is saturated and you put it in your oven on low heat for a few minutes to dry it back out. I have one and I've only had to cycle it once because the dehumidifier and air movement in the house are so effective. I also save all the packs I get in packaging and throw them in the safe.

Another element is to store guns "wet." This went against my Army training, when we were told to clean them until they were shiny and not load them up with oil before returning them to the armory. I do the opposite - before putting them away, they get a final wipe down (especially including the bore) to give extra protection.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Oiling steel to prevent rust is standard in blade collecting.

I guess it could trap dust and grit in the moving parts of a firearm though that could need to be cleaned before using the gun. Most swords don't have actions. So in the context of military weapons, I can see why they'd opt for clean, ready-to-use firearms and control the storage environment instead.

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Made in au
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge






Putting weapons away dry in a military context is also soldiers avoiding future cleaning, when the oil bleeds carbon from some unaccessible nook or cranny, that a gleeful SNCO will use as a reason to keep the detachment late scrubbing perfectly clean weapons 🙃

We had one who liked to use dental picks for his inspections.

My $0.02, which since 1992 has rounded to nothing. Take with salt.
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Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

To be fair, being a gun owner besides the army myself, I never did this and didn't endorse cleaning more than needed.

@Commissar I've got a set of such bags, I must say, that is awesome. Unfortunately as I was away no one dried them, which cause my mosin this much suffering :/. But I've now taken up the habit of oiling guns good and proper before putting locking them in the safe to ensure double factor protection.

hen I'm home, I usually have the guns take a bit of fresh air outside the safes as well.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Putting weapons away dry in a military context is also soldiers avoiding future cleaning, when the oil bleeds carbon from some unaccessible nook or cranny, that a gleeful SNCO will use as a reason to keep the detachment late scrubbing perfectly clean weapons 🙃

We had one who liked to use dental picks for his inspections.


Absolutely! We were told that if we put them away wet, the carbon they pulled out would result in a black sump. Not something you want the brigade sergeant major to see!

I got to be very good at rifle cleaning, and to this day, I recall with pride how the CSM held up his white-gloved finger after swiping the chamber of my weapon and said "That is a clean rifle!" to the complete satisfaction of my NCOs, who gazed at me with strange new respect.

In civilian life, such considerations are irrelevant. I know I'm never going to return a perfectly clean patch on weapons that saw action a generation before I was born. My keeping them well lubricated, I protect them from corrosion and excess wear.

I do not understand people who see how long you can fire an unlubricated weapon until it locks up. Who does this?

I always bring oil to the range and I can't count the times that I solved someone's weapon malfunctions by simply squirting CLP into the moving parts.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:


I always bring oil to the range and I can't count the times that I solved someone's weapon malfunctions by simply squirting CLP into the moving parts.


I used to keep a squirt bottle of CLP hanging behind my seat on my tank. Used it very liberally on my .50 and that thing never jammed, even in some pretty crappy conditions. Always take a bottle to the range to this day.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

Oh God you are right, 50. Cal really needed to be generously oiled to function correctly. The very one time I hadn't time to do that properly, the ammo belt got stuck.

40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
The salt/fresh water thing works in weird ways. I've read that fresh water rots wood while salt water preserves it, and that sailing ships had to be 'rinsed' with salt water after rainfall. But at the same time, wood in fresh water can be remarkably well preserved. Many years ago Michigan passed a revised salvage law specifically because technology had reached a point where it was possible to salve logs from shipwrecks and river floats that happened a century ago. This was old growth timber, it had been packed down into the bottom, and was worth a fortune because of how rare such things are today.


It is a feature of foundations for some buildings (e.g. the Taj Mahal in India). Big oak columns hammered into the wet ground as foundations. Now the water table to drying up and receding the columns are starting to fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Another element is to store guns "wet." This went against my Army training, when we were told to clean them until they were shiny and not load them up with oil before returning them to the armory. I do the opposite - before putting them away, they get a final wipe down (especially including the bore) to give extra protection.


Presumably the armourer would slather them in grease (oil, lard, sticky sugared drinks, etc.) if they were going in for longer term storage? Certainly until the 70's it was possible to find functioning small arms being washed ashore in France which well slathered in lubricant and well wrapped. I know the last time I was handed a L85 (SA80) A1 what awkward metal parts it had were treated for longer term storage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/14 11:53:34


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

For long term storage it is definitely better to absolutely slather a gun in cosmoline or something like it. Especially if you can't/don't want to climate control the storage location. It of course means the gun will take some labor to clean it out before it can be used again, which I suspect is why the US doesn't seem to do that for long term storage currently. We can afford to climate control the storage facilities and don't want to bother having to do deep cleans when the guns need to be used.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Movie related question?

Watching Terminator 2. See the damage to the T-1000 and how it causes funnel shaped holes?

Is that realistic?

   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







If you look up damage to tanks, there are often outward splashes of the armour. Especially in WW2 tanks considering the more conventional metal used back then. Just the physics of the situation does that effect.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Damage vs metal does tend to look roughly like that. It'll almost look like the round "melted" its way through the metal. Metal acts somewhat like a liquid in high speed impacts.

If you look ahead in this video you can see the impacts that bullets leave through steel. Roughly the 10 minute mark.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/03/14 20:59:07


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Wicked, cheers guys!

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wicked, cheers guys!


Rounds the have deformed are really hot afterwards, which is part of why those early WW II 40mm anti-tank rounds were effective - when they came through the other side, you'd get all kinds of messiness, not just a clean round hole. On the range, if you pick up a bullet right after it hits something and deforms, it's too hot to handle.

So much physics going on!

On another note, Steinel Ammo has a quantity of ammo for "shaved" Webley revolvers. This is .45 ACP that has been downloaded to safe pressures so you can use it with the moon clips. From time to time one sees adapters to permit the use of rimmed .455 (I fabricated my own), but this is cheaper than any .455 I've come across (probably because it uses standard .45 ACP casings, which are plentiful). Stock up while you can!

I have to say that while all of the publications I've read refer to .455 as a powerful cartridge with considerable recoil, it really isn't, especially fired from such a large frame revolver. The contemporary 1917 American revolvers chambered for .45 ACP are a lot snappier. I particularly covet the Colt model - as do a lot of people, which is why they are so pricey.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/03/16 11:45:48


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
 
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