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so i have this 1500 points-ish force of space marines, but i know almost nothing about their meta. As most can imagine, this bothers me (look at my sig. for more info). So what is the dos and donts with the vanilla marines?

There's really not a lot of donts... The c:sm is like a leatherman, it's a multi tool that can do anything you want it to do honestly. There are a lot of characters in the dex that unlock things... Find your path by reading fluff and pick your army.

Marines are good at everything, but the best at nothing

Ex: don't put them up against another unit designed for close combat

I'm an marine player and over my time of playing iv learned that they work best as an team.
Dont just let one squad go off on its own while the rest of the army is on the other side.

Work units together for a good smooth play and it can also be very effective when multiple units help each other

Ex: Thunder fire tech marine with a squad of Sniper scouts with Telion

Both units help each other tremendously

Same way with tanks, dont just send one up while the rest are back
I usually make a convoy of some sort providing other tanks cover saves while providing fire support for others etc etc

Ex: I run my landraider with a preditor in front of that with two razor backs on the sides and rhinos in back.
Kinda like a mobile fortress.

Every unit is good in its own way, but if you can find an unit that could improve one another it just makes that one unit much more effective and worth the points that much more Becuase marines are not exactly cheep point wise, but they are very forgiving in whatever role you put them in. They won't
disappoint .


Hope this helped

There really aren't any "don'ts" in the vanilla codex (With the possible exceptions of Assault marines. BA ones do this job better). And before anyone says "Storm talons suck compared to Vendettas!" please realize that EVERYTHING sucks compared to vendettas, so I don't think that holds water. Everything in there has a use.

As far as some DO's:
DO Combat squad. You don't get access to heavy weapons until you have 10 in a squad.

DO Sternguard. They are amazingly good, especially out of a drop pod. Consider combi-melta and Vulkan.

DO Rifleman Dreadnought. IMHO the best dread layout available short of a Furioso out of a drop pod.

There are plenty of subpar choices in the book. Some were improved by the 6e rules, like Vindicators, but many remain ineffectual enough to not be worth the points or FOC slot.
Don't take more than two Tactical squads. Don't buy melee upgrades for the sergeant either.
Don't take Devastators or Assault Marines, they are overcosted.
Don't take standard terminators, they suffer from lack of specialization.
Don't take venerable Dreadnoughts, they are overcosted.
Don't take Legion of the Damned, they are hilariously overcosted.
Don't take anything scout-related that doesn't score.
Don't take Whirlwinds.

The most useful generic HQs remain the Librarian and the Captain.
The runaway 'best' Elites choices are the Assault Terminators and the Sternguard.
Fast Attack is largely only useful for Attack Bikes or Land Speeders, bike squads are fairly inefficient if they're not scoring. The Stormtalon is okay but a lack of worthwhile outflanking in the book restricts its value.
Heavy Support's best choice is the Predator, especially in lower point games.

Your exact choices should be focused on whether you want to play a standoff shooting list with counterassault elements, or whether you want a more aggressive midfield control position.

There are pros and cons to everything. Figure out what you like, and make it work. There are very few bad units in the codex, but some are a little sub par. LotD and Vanguard Vets are the worst IMHO, but even they are not without merit. For every poster who says "That's useless" there is going to be one who says "That's the core of my army, and they rock"

Don't get hung up on the fact that other marine's units do the same job better and cheaper then ours do. Yes, Devastators aren't as good a long fangs, and assault marines aren't BA troops. But they still get the job done. And we do have the full toolbox to choose from.

 GreyHamster wrote:
There are plenty of subpar choices in the book. Some were improved by the 6e rules, like Vindicators, but many remain ineffectual enough to not be worth the points or FOC slot.
Don't take more than two Tactical squads. Don't buy melee upgrades for the sergeant either.
Don't take Devastators or Assault Marines, they are overcosted.
Don't take standard terminators, they suffer from lack of specialization.
Don't take venerable Dreadnoughts, they are overcosted.
Don't take Legion of the Damned, they are hilariously overcosted.
Don't take anything scout-related that doesn't score.
Don't take Whirlwinds.

Most of that is BS.
-Tactical squads can be used very effectively, and a CC weapon can be brilliant if combat squaded with a flamer. You get a nice meat shield that clogs up an opponent's CC units for a turn or two.
-If you use both and have them work together, they can be brutal. A Devastator Squad with Lascannons and Missile Launchers can take out most vehicles easily.
-Not true at all. Take an Assault Cannon and Missile Launcher, deep strike 'em, take out lots of troops at range, then mop up stragglers in CC, low init. doesn't matter so much under 6th, not a lot can hurt them too much.
-With you there.
-LotD can be unreal if used well, fantastic guideover on B&C http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/223979-the-legion-of-the-damned/
-LSS can be handy, bikes aren't great though.
-True enough.

I think your best bet is to experiment. Some people have wildly varying experiences with the army, so they come to vastly different conclusions. Personally, some of the advice you've been given (Combat Squads are great, unless the mission is Purge the Alien. Assault Terminators and Sternguard have given me some amazing performances.) is true for me as well. That being said, some of it has not been true for me. (I usually run 3-4 tactical squads, and my Riflemen never do anything but suck and die.)

Codex: Space Marines is really several very different armies printed in the same Codex. It's hard to give you a roadmap of a single metagame with them, since they can be played in a variety of ways. I recommend narrowing your focus a little, or experimenting around with different builds until you find one you think fits in with your playstyle.

I hope that helps.

 GreyHamster wrote:
There are plenty of subpar choices in the book. Some were improved by the 6e rules, like Vindicators, but many remain ineffectual enough to not be worth the points or FOC slot.
Don't take more than two Tactical squads. Don't buy melee upgrades for the sergeant either.
Don't take Devastators or Assault Marines, they are overcosted.
Don't take standard terminators, they suffer from lack of specialization.
Don't take venerable Dreadnoughts, they are overcosted.
Don't take Legion of the Damned, they are hilariously overcosted.
Don't take anything scout-related that doesn't score.
Don't take Whirlwinds.

I disagree with this, Tactical squads are in my experience very good at what they do. Hence I seldom take less than three of them. A good stat line and solid and steady value for the points always make them pay themselves back. Also the Sergeant benefits from a CC weapon, never know when a horde of Nids may show up, or a champion of sorts. And scouts with sniper rifles are good for picking away at high value targets. I face a lot of Nids 6 Orks and hence they have proven very good at decimating Synaps creatures and picking of other high treat targets. Also Dread's do well if played right, even more so Venerable Ones

But as Jimsolo said, opinions and such is rather divided at this point. And making an army that works for your local gaming environment is all that maters.

Actually, I disagree with the hating on Whirlwinds. I don't have the codex with me, but they are what? 65 points each?! For a Tank that does not need LoS and can drop Str 5 AP 4 large blasts? Horde Armies are going to hate that. And is it the Castelan Missiles that ignore cover? Hell, at 65 pts each I'd most certainly take two, especially against Armies that rely on cover saves to get across the board, 'Nids, Guard, both flavours of Eldar, all in trouble.

Whirlwinds are most certainly worth the points cost.

Edit: Though that is the Dark Angels variant, not sure about Vanila Marines

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Actually, I disagree with the hating on Whirlwinds. I don't have the codex with me, but they are what? 65 points each?! For a Tank that does not need LoS and can drop Str 5 AP 4 large blasts? Horde Armies are going to hate that. And is it the Castelan Missiles that ignore cover? Hell, at 65 pts each I'd most certainly take two, especially against Armies that rely on cover saves to get across the board, 'Nids, Guard, both flavours of Eldar, all in trouble.

Whirlwinds are most certainly worth the points cost.

Edit: Though that is the Dark Angels variant, not sure about Vanila Marines

Codex marines pay 85, the same as a dakka pred. Both do the same job; thin out hordes. The pred does it behind AV13 front armor, the WW does it from behind hills. The pred can shoot at flyers, the WW can use the barrage wound allocation rules to snipe specific targets in a squad. Both are better in certain situations, neither is a bad tank.

 Nevelon wrote:

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Actually, I disagree with the hating on Whirlwinds. I don't have the codex with me, but they are what? 65 points each?! For a Tank that does not need LoS and can drop Str 5 AP 4 large blasts? Horde Armies are going to hate that. And is it the Castelan Missiles that ignore cover? Hell, at 65 pts each I'd most certainly take two, especially against Armies that rely on cover saves to get across the board, 'Nids, Guard, both flavours of Eldar, all in trouble.

Whirlwinds are most certainly worth the points cost.

Edit: Though that is the Dark Angels variant, not sure about Vanila Marines

Codex marines pay 85, the same as a dakka pred. Both do the same job; thin out hordes. The pred does it behind AV13 front armor, the WW does it from behind hills. The pred can shoot at flyers, the WW can use the barrage wound allocation rules to snipe specific targets in a squad. Both are better in certain situations, neither is a bad tank.

While neither are bad tanks, most people I know tend to find more use in a Dakka Pred than a Whirlwind. Also, while both have their ways of staying safe, AV13 tends to be a more reliable protective method than cover as you can at least always guarantee AV13 while cover is a bit more board situational

EDIT: Oh gawd, my grammar....fixed for the most part...

The vanilla marine meta is weird.

Basically, so long as your list can deal with it's targets, you're fine.

Key example, you want to run mechanized, and want whirlwinds. While thunderfire cannons are better and cheaper, so long as the rest of your army can deal with hard targets, your whirlwinds (key here being plural) can kill infantry dead.

While other books have cheaper and slightly better options than the vanilla book, never underestimate the usage of combat tactics. I thoroughly enjoy doing it with bikes.

 washout77 wrote:


While neither are bad tanks, most people I know tend to find more use in a Dakka Pred than a Whirlwind. Also, while both have their ways of staying safe, AV13 tends to be a more reliable protective method than cover as you can at least always guarantee AV13 while cover is a bit more board situational

EDIT: Oh gawd, my grammar....fixed for the most part...

I agree with you. Given the choice, I'd personally take the predator. I view the Auto/HB pred equal to the WW, and the Auto/Las the same as a vindi. I think the preds are more versatile, but sometimes what you want is to kill everything under a large blast template. I tend to err on the side of flexibility myself. I might not have the perfect tool for the job, but I'll have something that will work.

There are a lot of units in the codex that do the same job, just in slightly different ways. There are a lot of units that can fill multiple roles, depending how they are equipped. One of the joys of the Vanilla codex is being able to pick and choose what's what, to make a well balanced list. Which is why it's hard to make absolute statements about units, you really need to evaluate lists as a whole.

 Nevelon wrote:

I agree with you. Given the choice, I'd personally take the predator. I view the Auto/HB pred equal to the WW, and the Auto/Las the same as a vindi. I think the preds are more versatile, but sometimes what you want is to kill everything under a large blast template. I tend to err on the side of flexibility myself. I might not have the perfect tool for the job, but I'll have something that will work.

There are a lot of units in the codex that do the same job, just in slightly different ways. There are a lot of units that can fill multiple roles, depending how they are equipped. One of the joys of the Vanilla codex is being able to pick and choose what's what, to make a well balanced list. Which is why it's hard to make absolute statements about units, you really need to evaluate lists as a whole.

See bold. You basically summed up what makes the C:SM lists work. None of the units are amazing awesome like SW, BA, GK, etc. but if they all work together in a flexible way than a vanilla marine list works really well

 Trondheim wrote:
[

I disagree with this, Tactical squads are in my experience very good at what they do. Hence I seldom take less than three of them. A good stat line and solid and steady value for the points always make them pay themselves back. Also the Sergeant benefits from a CC weapon, never know when a horde of Nids may show up, or a champion of sorts. And scouts with sniper rifles are good for picking away at high value targets. I face a lot of Nids 6 Orks and hence they have proven very good at decimating Synaps creatures and picking of other high treat targets. Also Dread's do well if played right, even more so Venerable Ones

But as Jimsolo said, opinions and such is rather divided at this point. And making an army that works for your local gaming environment is all that maters.

What would be a good heavy/special weapon choice for ones meant to stand and shoot?