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Hey gang

I am in a bit of an arguement over the Daemon Icon.

A local chap claims that it can be used on the first turn, as it claims it can be used on any Chaos players turn or what have you (paraphrasing as to not get shot)

But when it comes to negating the Reserve Roll for summoning, I see it that a reserve roll would have had to have been made to begin with for the Icon to be used. Thus in my mind, it can't be used until the Reserve Rolls are needed, thus not popping deamons until turn 2.

Any clarrification on this? Couldn't find it in the horrid GW FAQs..so clarrification would be great

Thanks folks.

Unless it specificly says it suspends the Reserve rules, the rule stands. The Icon can be used to summon any available Daemons on the 1st turn, yes; however, since Reserves doesn't activate on the 1st turn, there are zero Daemons available.

It isn't 'any available daemons'. The Icon summons a specific one that is enslaved into the icon itself

We've had this argument before, and I somehow seem to recall that we decided that you could indeed use the Icon to summon the enslaved Demons on turn 1. I'm pretty sure that's the conclusion we came to.

Here we go round the mulberry bush...

There's considerable debate, but I think it's rather clear.

There's no actual rule that prevents units held in reserve from entering the game on the first turn. You only get to *roll* for them starting on the second turn, but nowhere is it said that units in reserve cannot enter the game on the first turn.

The key is that the mechanism which normally restricts daemons from entering play on the first turn is that you don't get a roll on the first turn. The Daemon Icon does not -- contrary to what I've seen a lot of people claim -- let you automatically pass a roll to summon the attached daemons, but it allows the summoning "without making a Reserves roll". This can be done at the start of the Chaos player's turn. Ergo, a Chaos player can summon daemons off of the Daemon Icon on the first turn of the game.

To summarize my position from previous threads: the question is whether or not the daemons are available on turn 1. The RAW answer, as far as I can determine, is that there is no way to determine the answer one way or another. Daemons are definitely available on turn 2, but on turn 1 the question is open to debate. Therefore, using the the "rules ethics" as detailed in the "How to have an Intelligent Rule Discussion" post, I do not use a daemon icon to summon on turn 1. However, I will not prevent an opponent from doing so, nor will I penalize his sportsmanship for arguing that he can.

I'll just think that personally the player is a bit of a rules-lawyering git.

You know this fellow too!?

Honestly I understand where the grey area is as it is the size of an aircraft carrier... I do apologize if this has been discussed before as I didn't find anything else on the topic.

It says you can summon the daemons at the start of the chaos player's turn. It says you don't need to make a reserves roll, you just automatically summon them. Since turn one will have a "start of the chaos player's turn", I don't see any reason you can't summon using the icon on turn one.

Posted By Centurian99 on 03/22/2006 10:11 PM
Daemons are definitely available on turn 2, but on turn 1 the question is open to debate.

Please provide an argument for daemons *not* being able to be summoned via the Daemon Icon on the first turn.

The *only* mechanism that stops them from being summoned normally on the first turn is the lack of the Reserves roll, and the Daemon Icon very specifically lets you bypass that.

For people going to Adepticon, they have specifically ruled that you can't use a demon icon to summon on the first turn. I disagree with that interpretation, based on what has already been said in this thread, but you should know that if you are going to adepticon.

<div class="NTForums_Quote">Posted By Antonin on 03/23/2006 8:18 AM
For people going to Adepticon, they have specifically ruled that you can't use a demon icon to summon on the first turn. I disagree with that interpretation, based on what has already been said in this thread, but you should know that if you are going to adepticon.

Here's the thing. This rule is written badly. I'm quite sure the intent of the rule is not to allow summoning in turn one and to simply remove need to make the roll or to scatter the enslaved deamons.

I agree that based on the way its written you can argue turn 1 summoning. I just think this is going against the spirit of the rule, if not the exact wording of it.

Since it is up to an event organizer I definatly want to know thier opinion if it ever comes up at an event I attend. I know that I'll be ruling against turn 1 summoning at any events I run.

Nobody can really give a reason why it should not be allowed 1st turn. I hear "well the intent...." Well why do people think that is the intent? Because it is a rule that can be abused. People think that a rule that is abused is not being used in its intent. If you go first, shoot it to bits or have a vindicar or Mindwar pick it out. If they infiltrate and you have beasts they are 18" away. Go rip them to shreds and then they have no daemon icon. Drop a couple pie plates on them. Chances are they won't have many icons (3 is the max possible I believe).

Find me an army with no vindicar, mind wars, ordance weapons, beasts or lots of fire power in general. What does that leave orks? I think a good ork army would love a good daemon fight.

It does not work AS well if they do not go first. Still pretty good though. If they intended it to not be used first turn it would have been in a FAQ a long time ago which I do not believe it has been. If they go first well that is the way it goes sometimes. Other armies have stuff I hate too. So I guess their intent was to not allow it to tick me off either.

It clearly states start of chaos players turn, turn 1 is a turn. I play nids throw my gaunts into them first or let him take on some stealers whatever. I don't complain I deal. Cheesy Yes, against the rules, no.

However I do find space marine players whine the most about this as they think they have been cheated when their chaos brothers have something amazing they do not.

However I do find space marine players whine the most about this as they think they have been cheated when their chaos brothers have something amazing they do not.

Um, man, you might wanna zip up your fly; your bias is showing.

Yeah, stop the hate. Marines are genetically engineered super people too! An they don't whine, they share their feelings while still looking like manly men.

I won't deny my hate of marines. Most people will tell you if you are just starting into the game marines are an excellent army to go with. So around here a lot of marine players and fairly new and whine a lot about stuff chaos have. I.E. Daemons, greater daemons, defilers, possesed, etc

I'm quite sure the intent of the rule is not to allow summoning in turn one and to simply remove need to make the roll or to scatter the enslaved deamons.

Without actually talking to the author of that particular rule, I really don't see how one can make that claim. The rule is very simple -- it removes the requirement to roll to bring them in, and lets you bring them in at the beginning of your turn (of which the first turn is one of them).

I agree that based on the way its written you can argue turn 1 summoning. I just think this is going against the spirit of the rule, if not the exact wording of it.

I really don't follow this. The rule specifically overrides a separate restriction on summoning... but abiding by that restriction anyway is the spirit of the rule? It doesn't make sense.

" But when it comes to negating the Reserve Roll for summoning, I see it that a reserve roll would have had to have been made to begin with for the Icon to be used. Thus in my mind, it can't be used until the Reserve Rolls are needed, thus not popping deamons until turn 2. "

Except that it very specifically states the terms and conditions that it may be used, and they run counter to your logic:

-A unit of Chosen ONLY with the mark os chaos undivided
-1 daemon unit is nominated
-At the start of the chaos players turn (not the second 3rd or any other, just "the start of A turn") the nominated daemon unit can be AUTOMATICALLY summoned WITHOUT making a reserves roll.
-thereafter they don't scatter, can move and assault.

Seems pretty clear to me. Why adepticaon would break the rules as such is beyond me, but the wording indicates that the icon was meant specifically to override the normal summoning procedure. And considering you can only have 2 in an army it seems fair to me.

3 Icons in an army because you can take 2 units of chosen and 1 in a retinue for your lord I believe.

Ahoj!
The removal of roll for Reserves means that otherwise there would had been one.
As there are no Reserve rolls on Turn One, it is perfectly clear that you cannot use the Icon to Summon Daemons on Turn One.

Borys

The removal of roll for Reserves means that otherwise there would had been one.
As there are no Reserve rolls on Turn One, it is perfectly clear that you cannot use the Icon to Summon Daemons on Turn One.

I don't know where you're getting that, it's not what the rule says. It doesn't use "instead" or anything similar, it uses "without", and the words mean different things.

Ahoj!
We have reached the "moo" stage, i.e. we can debate this until the cows come home.
Anyway, correct or not, my mind is set.
If judging a tournament or store league I will not allow Summoning on Turn One.
Borys

Anyway, correct or not, my mind is set.
If judging a tournament or store league I will not allow Summoning on Turn One.

This seems to be a recurring habit with you -- you assert flawed arguments and when called on them fall back on some nebulous idea of how you personally think the game should be played. Given your habit of just making rules up and arguing them, why do you even bother posting on a forum where the whole point of discussion is to determine what the rules actually *say*?

Not that there's anything wrong with it -- it just appears to me to be tilting at windmills.

Ahoj!
I have a broader view of the purpose of this forum.
Not only what the rules actually say, or what they do not say, but also actual gaming practice.

Borys

Borys has always come across as a nice guy on these forums. However I do agree with Lowinor. Going by what is in print it is allowed turn 1. Also has it ever been FAQ'ed? It was a rule in third ed that never needed to be. It is printed as such, and dirty as it may be it is allowed on turn 1.

Any other rule that says at the start of so and so's turn do this, people will assume it is the next turn. It says at the start of the game a unit is enslaved. At the start of the chaos players turn .... Any other rule for any other army everybody would agree that is it turn 1. Because it is cheese people want to find a way to stop the cheese.

"3 Icons in an army because you can take 2 units of chosen and 1 in a retinue for your lord I believe."

You are right and wrong all at once 2 retinues (lord and Lt) and one elite, so i stand corrected on that one.

"The removal of roll for Reserves means that otherwise there would had been one.
As there are no Reserve rolls on Turn One, it is perfectly clear that you cannot use the Icon to Summon Daemons on Turn One."

I don't see anything that even remotely supports that. in fact i see the opposite; the wording implies that it was to get around that, seemingly to help out daemon heavy armies in escalation for example.
It's one thing if the RAW actually supports you borys, but you are breaking it. If you don't want to allow it based on personal feelings that's one thing, but don't try to get the rules that say one thing to mean another when they don't.
If they didn't want it to be used on turn one thay would have said so or been amended in a faq a looong time ago, which it wasn't. and the relevant wording was "the chaos players turn" not "the chaos players second turn when reserves are normally available".

"You are right and wrong all at once 2 retinues (lord and Lt) and one elite, so i stand corrected on that one."

All I know is my fried had 2 and wanted to up it to 3 because it was the max. Cheesey list indeed.

Ahoj!
"If they didn't want it to be used on turn one thay would have said so or been amended in a faq a looong time ago, which it wasn't. and the relevant wording was "the chaos players turn" not "the chaos players second turn when reserves are normally available".

I consider the level of your naivieity (sp?) to be refreshing.

Borys

I consider the level of your naivieity (sp?) to be refreshing.

Borys

And i find your patronisation childish and disrespectful. If you have something to bring to the discussion besides "i'm right and you're stupid" then please, take it somewhere else.

I did you the respect of laying my position out for you, you could at least try to be respectful and do the same.

And having "a broader view of the purpose of this forum" is moot and childish.
Who cares? That had absolutely zero to do with the discussion at hand. So engage your brain and the discussion mmmkay?

It's still laughable that you'd expect GW to correct their errors and/or issues with rules in a timely fashion. Anyone with more than 2 weeks' experience with GW should know that the correction process is a glacial process. Using the lack of correction as a justification of intent is silly. Never ascribe to intent what can be explained by sloth.