1500 Guard

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**Elnicko5**

Here goes.
Doctrines
Jungle Fighters
Hardened Fighters
Close Order drill
Iron Dicipline
Diehards

HQ
Junior Officer; Plasma Pistol, Honorifica Imperialis
Laz Cannon
Company Standard
Plasma Gun
Iron Dicipline and Close order drill

Veterans
Vet Sarg with pfist plasma pistol
5 vets, 2 with shotguns, 3 with melta guns
HF, COD, DH

Troops
HQ
JO with plasma pistol
3 Plasma Guns
Medic
JF, HF, ID, DH, COD

Squad 1
Vet Sarg w/Plasma Pistol and Power weapon
Heavy Bolter
Plasma Gun
JF, HF, ID, DH, COD

Squad 2
Same as squad 1

HQ2
JO with Plasma Pistol
4 melta gunners
COD, ID

Squad 3
Laz Cannon
Plasma gun
COD

Squad 4
Same as squad 3

Sentinal Squad 1
1 Laz cannon with extraarmor and enclosed crew compartment

Sentinal Squad 2
same as SS1

Hell Hound

Leman Russ demolisher
Plasma spontoons and a laz cannon

Bassilisk

Thats the list I think I am going with. Ive considdered swaping out the Russ for another bassilisk and some points to play with, but Im not sure. I would take this list up to 1850 with a bassilisk and some more sentinals, but that is for later. Any thoughts, opinions, so on and so forth?

**foil7102**

1500 Guard
Message: Here goes.
Doctrines
Jungle Fighters NO!
Hardened Fighters GOD NO!
Close Order drill
Iron Dicipline
Diehards DEAR GOD NO!

HQ
Junior Officer; Plasma Pistol, Honorifica Imperialis
Laz Cannon
Company Standard
Plasma Gun
Iron Dicipline and Close order drill

(OK YOUR HQ IS NOW A GIANT TARGER THAT MUST BE IN LINE OF SIGHT OF MY ARMY, Tell me why I am not going to blow this 5 man squad off the table first turn)

Veterans
Vet Sarg with pfist plasma pistol
5 vets, 2 with shotguns, 3 with melta guns
HF, COD, DH

(How is that pfist ever going to swing?)

Troops
HQ
JO with plasma pistol
3 Plasma Guns
Medic
JF, HF, ID, DH, COD

Squad 1
Vet Sarg w/Plasma Pistol and Power weapon
Heavy Bolter
Plasma Gun
JF, HF, ID, DH, COD
(illegal, this guy can not have officer only items)

Squad 2
Same as squad 1

HQ2
JO with Plasma Pistol
4 melta gunners
COD, ID

Squad 3
Laz Cannon
Plasma gun
COD

Squad 4
Same as squad 3

Sentinal Squad 1
1 Laz cannon with extraarmor and enclosed crew compartment

Sentinal Squad 2
same as SS1
(WAY to many points spent on these guys, av 10 does not cut it)

Hell Hound

Leman Russ demolisher
Plasma spontoons and a laz cannon
(You only have one av12 and one av14 target on the board, take more or none at all)

Bassilisk

**Elnicko5**

Foil, Im going to have to ask you to explain some things. Ive come to understand you are breif to get your point across, but some things I dont really get.

I understand that my doctrine choices may not be loved, but I want to keep my army this way, if at all possible.

My HQ, why must it be insight of your army? I get fact that the laz Cannon has a 48 inch range, but so my 5 other laz cannons, and i can put them anywhere. I thought that with the plethora of targets, that there may be other more important things to shoot at, Is this not the case?

75 pts is too much for the sentinels? I just though an AP value would be better than two armor saves that I would get for a 60 pt antitank support squad, is that not the case? Plus the free move and the ability to move and fire, I though 15 pts was a deal. However they are weak, point noted, do you have any sugestions for incorperating more laz cannons into my army for the points?

My bad on the power weapons. Need to learn to read more throughly.

For the vets, belive it or not, the pfist actually swings. My though is its because of the increaced WS that makes fewer of the guardsmen die, my thought process behind that is, since mostly I strike last, why not make the strike hurt. I might change it out for a power weapon, but im not convinced its all that different, aside from being cheaper and weaker. If I can get the points, mabe I will even enlarge the squad, but thats dependant.

Actually I have 2 Av12 and 1 AV 14, so I will take you as voting for the extra bassilisk, scraping points for a third, and dumping the demolisher.

Thanks for the advice, and If you could clarify the part about my HQ i would be greatful.

**ether dude**

Guard HQs exist for two purposes: re-rolled LD 9 and suicide plas/melta/flamer death. That's it. Given the lack of screening, your CHQ can be shot at with impunity. Believe me when I say T3 6+ save guardsmen die like flies. Because of this, you'll rarely shoot that las cannon, for which you paid 25 points. If youkeep them out of sight, then there will be no chance to shoot that expensive cannon. Also, given that this squad doesn't infiltrate, the enemy can line up all of the shots that they want at it durring deployment.

I won't comment on your doctrines, aside from this: with your current set up, you will lose every game that you play, unless you are the Napoleon of 40k (which you may be).

Tanks: always in pairs or trios. The idea is target saturation.

Vets: unless you are fighting Tau (and even then) that fist on the vet will rarely swing, and will never do so in more than one round of combat.

Troops: You're a little light on numbers for 1850, aren't you? My mech army has as many men as you do...

For the future: IG players tend to be hard-core. Don't post a list saying "I want to keep this un-optimized" it's asking for trouble.

**Elnicko5**

Thanks

HQ; I see, I wasnt thinking about when I would have to place them in set up. And I know that t3 5+ (I think you meant that) Guardsmen drop like flies. Painfully aware.

Doctrines; I wouldnt say that I am the Napolean of 40k, but I have played with these doctrines, on a small scale before, and won although that may say something about the caliber of players Ive played.

Tanks; The concensus seems to be to go to a multible bassilisk list and drop the demolisher, which will be done.

Vets; Never say never. Statistically it is low, but I was sold when I charged 6 genestealers with this squad in a combat patrol and beat them thanks to the fist. (Didnt think I was going to win, just wanted to hold them for a turn and blast them with as much as I could)

Troops; I have little experience with 1850, this is a 1500 list, but the 1850 list has the same amount of men, more tanks. What is a good number?

I never realised the Hard-coreness of the IG players untill now, but that is definately visible now that you say it. However, if they will help me maximise my list with some constraints, then they can yell at me and call me an idiot all they want.

**ether dude**

Eedjit!

In terms of hard-coreness, I'm a soft fluffy bunny of guard players. See below.

This might be useful:

http://dakkadakka.com/Default.aspx?tabid=93&forumid=18&postid=38775&view=topic

P.S. Yup, I was wrong those dudes have 5+ saves, I thouht that they had JF at first.

**foil7102**

Tanks; The concensus seems to be to go to a multible bassilisk list and drop the demolisher, which will be done.

(You can do this, but I like two demolishers, heavy bolters on sponsons and hull, you do not have to worry about terrain to hide them, and it really makes your opponent sweat when two av14 hulls come charging at them. It is a shame that there are so many weapons in the game now that treat av14 like tissue paper)

Vets; Never say never. Statistically it is low, but I was sold when I charged 6 genestealers with this squad in a combat patrol and beat them thanks to the fist. (Didnt think I was going to win, just wanted to hold them for a turn and blast them with as much as I could)
(yeah, well run the math and see how many times that pfist would normally get to swing, just because you are lucky with something once is no reason to assume you will be lucky with it again, for the cost of that fist you could get a heavy weapon)

A comment on your sentinals, they cost 75 points a pop, and die to bolters. But even if they survive the entire game think about it like this, you would get 6 lascannon shots, 3 hits. How often does 3 lascannon hits buy you back 75 points? More than likely, "especially if they are your only armored targets on the table" they are going to get zapped 1st or 2nd turn.

Just remember you play guard, you are starting off handicapped compared to the majority of the the armies out there. There is no sense in giving them more of an advantage.

**H.B.M.C.**

It is a bad idea to post a bad list at Dakka for review when you know it has faults and when you are unwilling to change it. I'm going to roast this list Elnicko5, but I want you to understand that any vitriol that I sling is not directed at you personally, but at this list.

Anyway, from the top:

Jungle Fighters

Bad.

For the same 10 points you can have Light Infantry. Light Infantry allows you to Infiltrate anywhere, not just into woods, you keep your 5+ save, and you can still have Lascannons. Jungle Fighters is a waste of a Doctrine Slot.

Hardened Fighters

Worse than bad.

Guardsmen are bad at HTH. Paying an extra 15 points per squad does not make them better at HTH, it makes them more expensive when they are eventually slaughtered in HTH. This is by far one of the two worst Doctrines in the Codex, equalled only by Cybernetic Enhancements.

Close Order drill

Fine.

Iron Dicipline

Near-mandatory.

Diehards

Needlessly wasteful.

You've got your Leadership Radii + Iron Discipline, why do you need to spend more points per squad for extra Ld boosting ability when you get the Leadership Radii for free?

Junior Officer; Plasma Pistol, Honorifica Imperialis
Laz Cannon
Company Standard
Plasma Gun
Iron Dicipline and Close order drill

Oh God...

1. The Plasma Pistol will never shoot. Moreover, even if you do shoot it, why are you taking weapons on your Officers that can kill them? Your Officers are the cornerstones of your army, the hinges that keep the battleline firing, so why take a gun that kills your own men for you? It's the enemy's job to kill your men, not yours!
2. The Lascannon. To fire the Lascannon this squad must be in LOS. If it has LOS to the enemy, then the enemy has LOS to it. If the enemy has LOS to it, then the squad will die a horrible death. Command HQ's are supposed to be hiding, not shooting.
3. Just when you thought this unit couldn't get any more bloated, you added a Plasma Gun!! Thanks for the extra 10 VPs!
4. Standard and ID are fine. I don't think that CHQs can take COD.

In the end this unit costs 126 points. That's 126 free VP's you've just given to the enemy. This unit is a massive, massive waste of points. Let me make this painfully clear:

CHQ's cost 81 points, total. They don't shoot. They don't fight in HTH. They sit and hide and provide Ld9 Re-Rollable leadership to those within 12" plus the ability to regroup under 50%.

Veterans
Vet Sarg with pfist plasma pistol
5 vets, 2 with shotguns, 3 with melta guns
HF, COD, DH

What the hell? Six men for 133 points? Six Wound 1, Toughness 3 men w/5+ Saves for 133 points? You realise that each member of this squad costs 22.167 points?

Do you realise that for less points I can put 5 Grey Knights on the table who will kill every one except maybe the Sergeant in the first round, and destroy the Sergeant in the second.

Do you realise that for the same points I can put 6 Assault Marines on the table, who will kill between 4-6 of them on the charge?

Do you realise that for 133 points I can put 30 Conscripts on the table, who will out last these 6 men and cost 13 points less.

Do you realise just how utterly horrible this Veteran unit is?

It's almost beyond words, but I'll lay down the facts:

1. They're confused. The power fist is HTH. The shotguns are anti-infantry. The meltaguns are anti-tank. Just what the hell is this unit supposed to be doing?
2. The power fist will almost always never swing.
3. It's 22 God-damned points per model! I can put eight Marines on the table for the cost of this squad. Eight. I can put two unarmed squads of Guardsmen on the table. That's twenty men for the price of these six!

This unit is a joke.

HQ
JO with plasma pistol
3 Plasma Guns
Medic
JF, HF, ID, DH, COD

A single wound Officer... with a weapon that can kill him. 3 Plasma Guns... that are Infiltrating, but only into wooded terrain. Hardened Fighters when they have no HTH weapons. ID when they're infiltrating forward and suiciding themselves, so they're not providing Ld to your troops anyway. DH when they're going to be dead before they can even take an LD test.

I guess you just added the Medic because you have a keen sence of irony, right?

If the Vet unit was a joke, this unit is a stand-up comic.

Squad 1
Vet Sarg w/Plasma Pistol and Power weapon
Heavy Bolter
Plasma Gun
JF, HF, ID, DH, COD

I'm going to ignore the fact that this unit is actually illegal, mainly because when I worked it out in my head I got a price tag of 131 points for this unit. 131 points for 10 men who will mostly die before they can do any significant.

To put it into perspective, 131 points is almost enough to buy a Leman Russ.

To keep going with the metaphor, if the Command Section is the stand-up comic, then the two squads belonging to the Command Section must be his comic routine. Unfortunately I don't know whether I should laugh, cry, or claw my eyes out with some rusty spoons.

All in all this 'platoon' costs 388 points. That's an average of 15.25 points per model. That's more than a Marine, you ain't got the 3+ saves to justify this cost.

And to put a little perspective into this, looky what I can get for 387 points:

JO w/Iron Discipline
Squad w/Lascannon + Plasma
Squad w/Lascannon + Plasma
Squad w/Heavy Bolter + Flamer
Squad w/Heavy Bolter + Flamer

That's 20 more men for 1 less point. And all these units have Drop Troops and COD.

HQ2
JO with Plasma Pistol
4 melta gunners
COD, ID

Squad 3
Laz Cannon
Plasma gun
COD

Squad 4
Same as squad 3

Fortunately for you the follow up act to the last comedian isn't as funny. The two squads are fine, except for the fact that there's only 2 of them. You should have 4-6 squads like this. The Command Section is a complete waste without Drop Troops though. How are they going to get into range? Why are you giving Plasma Pistols to W1 models?

Sentinal Squad 1
1 Laz cannon with extraarmor and enclosed crew compartment

Looks like the members of your comedy club asked for an encore, because the comedian from the first platoon is back, this time with newer material in the form of a 75 point AV10 vehicle.

I don't think I need to explain why taking a 75 point AV10 vehicle with a Lascannon is a bad idea, but I will anyway:

1. The Lascannon makes him dangerous. Because he's dangerous people will shoot at him. He's AV10, so he will die to just about anything. If I were your opponent I'd thank you for taking a 75 point AV10 vehicle. Makes beating you in the VP race a hell of a lot easier.
2. It's a 75 point AV10 vehicle!!!!!!!!!!!! It needs LOS to fire, so, like your CHQ, it is going to die a horrible death. Moreover, your opponent doesn't have to expend much effort to gain those 75 VPs. A few bolter rounds or a volley of HB fire will do.

This unit is bad.

Sentinal Squad 2
same as SS1

I'm amazed. The comedian told the same joke again, but in a slightly different way, and still everyone laughed. The people in your comedy club aren't very bright. They're a bit dim, as are your chances if you ever field this list against someone with half a brain cell.

Hell Hound

Leman Russ demolisher
Plasma spontoons and a laz cannon

Ah! The pièce de résistance of this list. Where all the bloat, uselessness and otherwise crap army building come together for one final last joke:

Two direct fire vehicles. One AV12. The other AV14. This could not be funnier.

On behalf of every poor sod who's forced to slaughter this hopeless list I'd like to say thankyou for giving us an optimal target for each type of anti-vehicle weapon we will bring. Our Lascannons will have fun obliterating your single AV14 target by the bottom of the second turn, and our S7 and S8 weapons will be filled with joy when faced with a single AV12 target.

And that's what these vehicles are - Targets.

It's very simple, and this is one of the foundations of armoured vehicles in 40K. Breaking it is tantamount to conceeding to your opponent before the game begins.

Vehicles work in pairs, trios, or not at all. A single vehicle is naught but a target.

It's all about target saturation. The more targets of a single type you put on the table, the more choices your opponent is forced to make:

Does he go after one tank with everything he has, pushing the odds of killing it in his favour but simultaneously leaving the other equally powerful vehicles unmolested? Or does he split his fire between all the targets, possibly causing no damage at all?

This is a fundamental part of list construction and playing 40K, and it seems that you've almost gone out of your way to go against this ideal.

Basilisk

Fine.

Illegalities and certain mishaps aside, I get a final count for this list of 1497 points and 66 models. I've seen Mechanised Guard armies with more models than this. Hell, I've seen Grey Knight armies with bigger model counts than this. Sixty six models in a Guard Army? That's an average of 22 points a model! 22 points per Guardsman!

I'm sorry Elnicko5, but this list is a mess, an utter mess. It is all over the place. It's got units with guns and Hardened Fighters, a selection of vehicles that won't live past turn two. It has virtually no models (seriously: 66 models in a Guard army? You should have 100+ unless you're playing Mechanised). Your under-gunned, under-manned, over-bloated and I can't think of anyone that would have a hard time slaughtering this list come turn 4. This is by far one of the worst Guard lists I have ever seen.

The only things you've done 'right' are those two Las/Plas squads and the Basilisk. Everything else is over-bloated and useless.

If I just take out the junk (Plasma Pistols, Power Weapons, the Las/Plas in the CHQ, needless wargear/upgrades and Doctrines), you save 278 points. The list becomes 1199, giving you 301 points with which to fix this list.

Rebuilding this list is quite simple. You dump the bloat, get yourself Drop Troops, and start hacking away at the bits that need fixing with the largest chainsword you can find:

Custom Doctrines Army

Doctrines
     Skills and Drills: Close Order Drill
     Skills and Drills: Iron Discipline
     Regimental Organisation: Drop Troops
     Skills and Drills: Light Infantry

Command Platoon @ 137 Pts
     Command Squad @ 91 Pts
          Lasguns (x3); Iron Discipline; Light Infantry
          Junior Officer @ 65 Pts
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol
               Honorifica Imperialis 25
          Veteran @ 11 Pts
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol; Standard Bearer

     Sentinel @ 46 Pts
          Multi-Laser
          Searchlight 1

4 Hardened Veterans @ 76 Pts
     Lasguns (x1); Meltagun (x3); Drop Trooper
     Hardened Veteran Sergeant @ 14 Pts
          Bolt Pistol; Close combat Weapon

Infantry Platoon @ 308 Pts
     Command Squad @ 80 Pts
          Meltagun (x4); Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
          Junior Officer @ 40 Pts
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

     Infantry Squad #@ 76 Pts
          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Flamer; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

     Infantry Squad @ 76 Pts
          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Flamer; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

     Infantry Squad @ 76 Pts
          Heavy Bolter; Lasguns; Flamer; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

Infantry Platoon @ 289 Pts
     Command Squad @ 79 Pts
          Flamer (x4); Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper; Iron Discipline; Light
          Infantry
          Junior Officer @ 40 Pts
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

     Infantry Squad @ 105 Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper;
          Light Infantry
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

     Infantry Squad @ 105 Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper;
          Light Infantry
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

Infantry Platoon @ 289 Pts
     Command Squad @ 79 Pts
          Flamer (x4); Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper; Iron Discipline; Light
          Infantry
          Junior Officer @ 40 Pts
               Close combat Weapon; Laspistol

     Infantry Squad @ 105 Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper;
          Light Infantry
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

     Infantry Squad @ 105 Pts
          Lascannon; Lasguns; Plasma Gun; Close Order Drill; Drop Trooper;
          Light Infantry
          Sergeant @ 6 Pts
               Laspistol and CCW

Sentinel @ 46 Pts
     Multi-Laser
     Searchlight 1

Hellhound @ 115 Pts
     Inferno Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

Hellhound @ 115 Pts
     Inferno Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

Basilisk @ 125 Pts
     Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter

Models in Army: 100
Total Army Cost: 1500

The list can have either 2 Demolishers + Basilisk or 2 Hellhounds + Basilisk. It needs to have either 2 AV12 or 2 AV14. Can't have both. I went with the Hellhounds in the version above.

There are more men, more guns, no bloat, and correct target saturation. With a some clever use the Hellhounds should do well. 4 Infiltrating Lascannons. 2 Deep Striking Melta units. 2 Multi-Lasers, a gaggle of heavy bolter/cannon fodder units and 3 solid LD-giving units. Plus the Bassie as the Wild Card unit.

BYE

**Elnicko5**

I want to say thanks,
@foil, never thought about the twin demolishers before

@H.M.B.C.
This point by point break down was more than I could have hoped for, and I think your prescript was in refrence to a previous reaction, and I took that lesson to heart, and learned that I am asking for help, so my idiocy will be treated as such. I now expect the frankness.

**Flagg07**

Thank you HBMC. I always enjoy reading your posts.

**Elnicko5**

ok, rethought list
Doctrines
Jungle Fighters
Iron Dicipline
Close Order drill

HQ 75
Heroic Senior Officer Iron Dicipline
4 regular Guardsmen
COD

Troops

Platoon 1
HQ 91
Junior officer
medic
3x Plasma Marines
Jungle Fighters
COD

Infantry Squad 106
Vet Sarg wPlasma Pistol
Heavy Bolter
Plasma Gun
Jungle Fighters
COD

Infantry Squad 106
same as above

Platoon 2
HQ 86
Junior Officer
Medic
3xPlasma guns
Iron Dicipline

5x Troops 95
Laz Cannon
Plasma Gun
COD

2x Sentinal w/laz cannon 55

2x Leman Russ Demolishers w/heavy bolters(hull mounted and spontoons) 165'

Indirect fire bassilisk 125

PTS 1499
Models:85
8 heavy bolters, 7 laz cannons, 3 ordinance templates, 11 plasma guns

Im considdering droping the plasma pistols in the Jungle fighters squad, if it do that it is a potential 3 plasma guns in an HQ, or an Honorifica Imperialis on the other command squad. I can change out the sentinals to pick up 20-25 conscripts, and the allow conscripts doctrine, probibally 20 because I like to run my conscripts with a basic inquisitor for the LD, bringing the model count to 105.

Tacticswise I use the Jungle fighter platoon as a suicide platoon, which slows the enemy down alot, giving me more ordinance shots at them, and inflicts serous damage on light veichles(I can interchange heavy bolters with autocannons), the rest of the army just shoots and will hopefully destroy anything before it hits the lines. I know the plasma guns in the HQ squad are in debate, but they work more often than not for me. So once again, comments and sugestions wellcome.