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Is premeasuring allowed at anytime in the game?

Particularly in the movement phase?

Is it legal to pick up a single model, move it to a location, and then change ones mind, remeasure back to where it was and then choose another direction instead, (or no movement)?

What if instead the model is not moved or handled at all but a player simply premeasures to a spot, evaluates it, then decides to move elsewhere?

???

Well, you need to measure in order to move. If someone can't make up their mind and repeatedly moves their models back that would be really annoying. You might ask them to measure and not move until they were sure. You can't measure the distance from the movement spot to a target, but nothing in there otherwise that I see.

As Aronious mentioned, you need to measure to move.

I'm often guilty of moving the lead model of a squad to a location to check the vantage from that location for the rest of the squad. Its not chess though, and the closest thing to touch-move is the fact you cant go back to move a squad once you've moved another.

So, having said that, i dont think there are any preclusions from measuring movement. There are no specifics outlining how you should move, and where and when. Any contrary thoughts?

Hmm.. interesting post. Heres a list of my pre-measuring Q's..

Deployment-
1) Checking to see whether you're 6" into area terrain when setting down a unit?
2) Checking to see if a unit's special ability (ie: Apothecary with Narthecium) has range to another unit when deploying them?

In play-
1) Checking radius of objectives (loot counters, take and hold, etc) to see how much farther you need to move?
2) Measuring 6"/12"/FoF to see where the most adventagous direction lies? Should a path be declared before measuring?
3) Measuring radius effects of enemy models so you know how far away to stay? (Ie: psychic scream, nurgles rot, etc)
4) Opinions on players who roll for FoF and then add it to their nromal 6" move, and then move the total distance at one time, rather than moving 6" in the movement phase, then rolling FoF in the shotting phase? (I ask because locally, everyone, myself included, does this to help speed up the game when horde armies are involved.. especially during tournaments and the league finals.. but I can see certain situations where doing this could give an unfair advantage)

I think that pretty much covers my pre measuring questions..

I have no real answers but the general rules that are used AROUND HERE for gabes questions are:
Deployment:
1) & 2) Most premeasuring is allowed during setup. I play nids and need to watch synapse. I also use terrain a lot and the allow it. Are my infiltrators the right distance away. How far from the board edge can I go to make sure I can get into combat asap. It goes both ways. How far am I away from an objective or measuring your opponents stuff is not allowed.

In play:
1) We allow the oppenent to measure if he wants to see if you have it if it is close. You cannot measure yourself and if you are unsure move closer.
2) Path is declared first, then measure. Like declaring a charge. You declare if you fall short, sucks to be you
3) You declare movemnt and if you move your 6" or less and are to close you can always subtract movement, but not subtract to move in another direction.
4) we do that the same way but the odd person has a problem we will do it the proper way.

Again that is how most people allow it around here. Some are more flexable but in the end if you are allowed to measure in that situation so are they. So most people do not mind for the above situations.

No pre-measuring is not allowed.

The rulebook/codex's tells us what we can do. If it doesnt say we can measure the range then we cant.

If you are ever unsure if you are within synapse/narthesium/objective range move closer.

If you are worried you might scatter off of the board when you deep strike move further away from it.

The rules only prohibit premeasuring for shooting (and assault, if I remember correctly).
Measuring is necessary for things like moving into difficult terrain, or keeping coherency.

The example given by dakari-marine is another no-no at my store.

But lets be honest if there is absolutely no premeasuring in any circumstances then it says I can deploy within 12" of my board edge well since I can't measure I will guess here is 12" and just happen to suck at guessing as it was actually 15".

Some situations need to be pre-measured. The above as I said are times my store allows. It makes for more fun by all. That is the main rule in the rule book is it not. #1 objective is to have fun.

You play to what is accepted in the gaming group or tournament you are in. If you go in and start going well these guys allow this and this place ruled that way. Good for you, then go play at that place. I.E. see thread on Daemon summoning. No use in arguing at a tournament that won't allow first turn summoning. You argue enough one way they will just kick you out. Any rule is like that in any group. If you play at a local GW ask the staff their ruling and play by that. I find that even different GW's will rule differently but if that is what is accepted as the ruling there, then that is the ruling.

You have to have some premeasuring. You have to be with in 2 inches or 4 inches for squads. You have to measure that.

Do you think spacing your guys 2 inches apart is premeasuring or keeping coherency?

What about swinging the ruler anywhere a skimmer moving 24 inches can go?

Movement premeasuring is fine by me. IMO I have as much right to make sure each and every model is in the exact position I want them to be in. Of course I don't measure, move, change my mind and remeasure to move back and then measure to move again. I tend to do the 'radius' check.

Shooting can only be premeasured if you have a targeter or a similiar piece of wargear. Of course that does not work for guess weapons but hey GW doesn't make perfect rules... HAHAHAHHA

4) Opinions on players who roll for FoF and then add it to their nromal 6" move, and then move the total distance at one time, rather than moving 6" in the movement phase, then rolling FoF in the shotting phase? (I ask because locally, everyone, myself included, does this to help speed up the game when horde armies are involved.. especially during tournaments and the league finals.. but I can see certain situations where doing this could give an unfair advantage)

This one I'm cautious of, at least for myself (and my mounted Daemonettes). It is conceivable, for example, that a situation could arise where, if I knew I'd only get a 1" Fleet roll, I would prefer to move one direction, while a 6" roll would take me in another direction. So, I "declare" my movement first, which seems to solve that problem.

For FoF I ask the opponent to show me the direction they are moving. This way they dont' just hide behind cover because they rolled a 1 instead of a 6. This stops shady tacitcs.

Deployment-
1) Checking to see whether you're 6" into area terrain when setting down a unit?
2) Checking to see if a unit's special ability (ie: Apothecary with Narthecium) has range to another unit when deploying them?

In play-
1) Checking radius of objectives (loot counters, take and hold, etc) to see how much farther you need to move?
2) Measuring 6"/12"/FoF to see where the most adventagous direction lies? Should a path be declared before measuring?
3) Measuring radius effects of enemy models so you know how far away to stay? (Ie: psychic scream, nurgles rot, etc)
4) Opinions on players who roll for FoF and then add it to their nromal 6" move, and then move the total distance at one time, rather than moving 6" in the movement phase, then rolling FoF in the shotting phase? (I ask because locally, everyone, myself included, does this to help speed up the game when horde armies are involved.. especially during tournaments and the league finals.. but I can see certain situations where doing this could give an unfair advantage)

I think that pretty much covers my pre measuring questions..

This is one of the more frustrating things I run into in playing warhammer and 40k, and I wish the rules were more explicit about it. Premeasuring shooting and assault is disallowed by the rules, but premeasuring movement is not explicitly called out. IMO it is not intended to be allowed. If it were, then GW would not have written into the rules of other games like Warmaster (and BFG?) that premeasuring for movement was allowed.

IMO premeasuring movement is more powerful than pre-measuring shooting or assault. Vastly more important when it comes to general play, if I can swing my tape measure around 24" to see where my Falcon can make it to, I will be able to easily tell at a glance if I can make it behind the terrain I need to hide behind, or into the quadrant I need to hold. IMO this is cheating. Gaining an unfar advantage from information I should not have until and unless I actually move there.

For this reason I hold myself to a pretty strict "you measure it, you move there" policy. If I am not sure whether a fast mover like a skimmer will make it where I want to go, I will measure the movement in sections and guage by eye. Move 12"- do I think another 12" will get me where I need to go? No? Well, then I've got another 12" to play with from where I moved my model to already. No take-backs. With units of multiple models, I measure for each model. Once one model has moved, I can freely move the others as I wish around him (each obeying the max movement distance), but each model is committed to a distance and direction once I measure. I will occasionally do fine adjustments on model positioning (moving a squad a couple of inches, then fiddling them around and repositioning) when it is obvious that all models are still moving less than 6". I will never measure/move a model's full distance and then move it backwards after gaining the knowledge and the visual data of where it stood with a 6" move. This to me is shady in the extreme, allowing you to make a new decision and avoid the consequences of a move based on your new knowledge of whether they are probably in our out of range/LOS to assault, shoot, be shot or assaulted, or get to an objective.

Of Gabe's examples above, I do not allow myself to do ANY of them. Not one. All of them honestly make me feel a little gross and dirty to even think about doing, with the possible exception of moving FoF moves during the movement phase, which, while exploitable, can be a big help in getting a decent number of turns in against a Tyranid army in a tournament with timed rounds. That said, I've still never done it with my Eldar, though I have allowed opponents to do it.

The only situations mentioned in this thread that I permit are the ones where you literally have to measure to know if you're following the rules. Coherency and your own deployment zone edges, infiltration distances and scenario pushback lines all require measuring to know if you're following the rules.

The part that's frustrating is that the above restrictions I hold myself (and people I know personally and play regularly) to, are not explicitly called out in the rulebook. So when playing at strangers (particularly at tournaments) I may get an unpleasant surprise when I see someone measure 24" one way for their Falcon, then think better of it and measure a different way. So in tournaments I occasionally let it slide, and have even resorted to doing it myself once or twice against these people, as I figure if they're used to playing this way without realizing that they're cheating, I may as well not get screwed because they're operating with more information than I am.

For FoF I ask the opponent to show me the direction they are moving. This way they dont' just hide behind cover because they rolled a 1 instead of a 6. This stops shady tacitcs.

Anderton, this is not supported by the rules. You are always allowed to know the result of your Fleet roll before deciding which way or whether to move.

If you're talking about a house rule to use when allowing an opponent to make his fleet moves in the movement phase, thus mitigating the advantage he gains by doing so, then that's cool. I could see playing that way to make things fairer and faster for both players.

It's interesting to see the variety of responses on this topic. It's also interesting to see how it was asked. Looks like most people don't have a problem with it. Mannahin's response is pretty strict, and I'll applaud him for it, and some of Gabe's things (1 and 3 specifically) I don't agree with, but it's still interesting to see.

This actually came up in a game Augustus played at Adepticon... He was playing against Paul Murphy... Murphy rolled a Blood Rage on some scouts (I believe he got 5" for an 11" total movement), he then started to go one way, and then changed his mind and moved another direction. The figure, to the best of my knowledge didn't get moved, put back, then moved again, but rather Murphy saw roughly where he was going, and changed his direction...

Then, .02 seconds after he did... Augustus called Murphy a "f***ing cheater"... obviously things went a little more poorly from there on out.

Honestly... you're playing someone you've never met, on the first day of a tourney, and you toss that out there for something as "trivial" as this... It's a little harsh... from the looks of this thread, most of the people here would have ZERO problems with Murphy's actions... yet to you it was a bigger deal...

So my question is, if you decide you over reacted, are you man enough to apologize for it?

Things would be a bit different in the atmosphere of a tournament with prizes than in regular friendly play.

If I had over-reacted then I hope I would apologize. But who can know until the occasion arises?

Thunderjaw, may we infer from your "to the best of my knowledge" that you were not actually a witness to the game or the incident?

If so, then it would seem questionable for you to raise the issue. May I ask what you hope to achieve by doing so?

These kind of things often get discolored in the retelling, and if Paul felt like posting about it, he could. If, on the other hand, he might have exaggerated any elements of the story in telling it privately to his friends and blowing off steam, then you may cause him more embarrassment than you are presently causing Augustus.

Personally I rather suspect that Paul's move with the Scouts may have been something I would have been uphappy for my opponent to do, and Augustus' reaction may have been a little less harsh than you have described. But I really have no way to know, not having been there. How about you?

Mannahnin,

I was actually there, and at the next table over. Since thats the case, I can tell you the above story is NOT exaggerated. I heard the guy say the words, and IMO, he deserved at the least a shot in the jaw. If he had a problem with the measuring, a simple question, or comment to start a rule debate would have been enough. The reaction that Augustus gave was horrible, and deserved a lot harsher reaction than the other guy gave him. I hate to say it, but if I were Augustus opponent in that round, I might have dived over the table and took his head off.

Now, since Paul isnt saying anything, I can assume he wants to drop it, and thats fine, but dont come to the defense of an ASS CLOWN like Augustus unless you are sure there are no witnesses, and in this case, there are.

If so, then it would seem questionable for you to raise the issue. May I ask what you hope to achieve by doing so?

These kind of things often get discolored in the retelling, and if Paul felt like posting about it, he could. If, on the other hand, he might have exaggerated any elements of the story in telling it privately to his friends and blowing off steam, then you may cause him more embarrassment than you are presently causing Augustus.

No, I personally didn't hear it, but some of our other team mates did. I padded down the resulting conversation because I'm pretty sure some of that was exagerrated because we ALL do it when talking to our friends. I know I for one am far far braver when "blowing off steam" than I am in a game where I'm trying to do my best to argue and not kill my sports scores (note that wasn't the issue here). Everyone was universal about the initial statement, so, knowing the retellers, I think it's safe to say the initial statement was true. Again, there's room for error, but not a lot.

As for embarrassment. I don't think Augustus has anything to be embarressed about. Lord knows I wouldn't be. He's a competitive person, and it was the Gladiator, and thus inherently a competive event in the extreme. He either got mad and said the first thing that popped into his mind, or he truly felt he was getting cheated. I'm sure he didn't call Paul out on if for grins.

Reconciling the Augustus I see here versus the Augustus there doesn't jive well though. It seemed out of character, especially since it seems it's kind of a "low end" issue in a lot of areas (though this is by no means a scientific survey)! He doesn't have to apologize, and if he thinks he's right he should stick by his guns. I would. I just commented on it seeing the response here.

Now... if you wanted to see something to be embarressed about, you should have seen my Alpha Legion versus Kevin of Dakka Detachment One's Siren prince in the Gladiator...

THAT was pathetic...

Bah... Primarch responds faster than me... he must be slacking at work today...

Thanks Thunderjaw, that was a good response. When you used the expression "man enough" in the first post I thought you might be displaying internet balls, trying to start something unpleasant from the safe side of a monitor. The Gladiator does tend to play by a little rougher rules and when we did them around here trash talking was encouraged. I still don't feel comfortable coming down on one side or the other from a thousand+ miles away, but you sound like you're using the appropriate amount of skepticism.

Primarch- I didnt come to his defense, I expressed a little skepticism based on prior experience and asked Thunderjaw a couple of obvious questions. As Thunderjaw says, I doubt Augustus (over)reacted in that way because Paul did something that made him happy.

I do appreciate your chiming in with an eyewitness report. Did you see what Paul did to provoke that response?

I get annoyed when people measure three directions before moving  moreso because it slows the game down than I think it is cheating. In a more tournament style I would probably approach the judges and see what they want to lay down for allowing/disallowing it, and basically would like to have the opponent declare his intent before measuring or moving models. i don't have a problem with them rolling their difficult terrain and then go the opposite direction if they fail but still go the distance of the roll, that seems fair to me.

I personally go the direction I intended to, as I learn from my mistakes better than when I get it let go. i haven't forgotten a unit dropeed into the backfield after I lost a game by forgetting to fire all three drop troop squads with dual flamers one game, all of which had scattered optimal distances from their targets. I don't forget about 30 lost wounds.  

Deployment -

As far as I'm concerned you can measure and remeasure, within your zone, as much as you want during deployment as long as you don't reposition a unit other than the one currently being deployed.  This to me represents the fact that at the beginning of battle, you have whay you would consider optimal deployment.

In Play -

1) Nope.  .

2)  I'll allow you to take back the first 1 or 2 guys in a squad.

3) Nope.  If you do that, why not just place cut-out that shows the required radius.  Perhaps a 12' diameter paper circle around all your Guardians that shows how far they can shoot, or a 18' diameter around you new Tau commander with Command and Control node.  If you aren't sure, get closer than you think you need (or further for negative effects).  If you'r going to go that far, why not place a flamer template over your squad from a bunch of different angles to make sure you can't have more than a certain number of models get affected next turn.

4) Nope.  The movements are separate for a reason.  If you roll a 6" you might take 12" and move right into the open towards a squad you know you'll be able to charge.  If you have to move 6" then chance another roll in the shooting phase, you might not move into the open since a 1"-5" won't get you in charge range.

In tourney play I'll let you take back a small amount of moves, but no way would I allow premeasuring unless specifically stated in the rules.  The estimation of distance should and often does play a part in the game.  In casual play, I'm pretty much a pushover with everything except premeasuring.

 

Let me preface this - I expected the question posed by Agustus to be inflamatory and it wasn't. Given his maturity level at the event I wasn't actually sure what to expect. Needless to say I am sure we will have different accounts of how it all went down but the explanation that has already been given is accurate. Damien seemed like a nice enough guy and I actually admired the way his army looked - I figured the game was going to be plesant then he starts dropping the F bomb and calling me a cheater. Not only that but he refused to consult the rulebook on ANYTHING. He was wrong about several rules but I just let them go because he said, and I quote "I don't have to listen to anything you say because you are an F'n cheater.' Then he ended that bit of juvenile behavior with 'I'm just going to wipe you off of the table so it doesn't matter'

Let me state that to his credit when he was putting his dead pile back in the box with the Death Company Terminators assaulting and killing three units at a time he was pleasant and took his lumps well. I honestly believe that he was just trying to get me off kilter to try and slow my game down. That may just be his style and the more power to him, I guess. Those people tend to run out of opponents to play against in their own time. He plays IG and probably has a phobia against assault type armies. Again, it wasn't a big deal but the way he handled the situation was absolutely deplorable.

At the end of the game I shook his hand and told him I would be happy to debate him as long as the conversation didn't degrade to him name calling any more.

He also called me a cheater with the way I was rolling for my deep striking/drop poding troops. To keep the game moving I just did it his way and moved on with my life. I almost pissed myself laughing on Sunday when I heard him describing to his opponent how to roll for deep striking troops on Sunday (he was a table or so behind me). Guess what, it was exactly the way I was describing it to him while he was calling me a cheat. And no, he did not apologize for his behavior at the event or even when he learned my points of contention were correct.

Like it or not I am sure I will encounter him at furture tournaments and I will make sure to alert a judge about his behavior. I think it will work out for the best if someone monitors the game to protect both of our soft scores.

-Paul

Ok, I'll start with disclosures.

1) I am not a big DAKKA poster.
2) I am a friend of Augustus.
3) I was playing on the table right next to the table in question.

With those disclosures, I want to open with two topics in this thread.
1) I will say that Augustus could have handled the situation with Paul a better. It was a Gladiator tournament, but that doesn't excuse the poor behavior on either side. I will also say that the ruling for deployment at adepticon with regard to reserves (as far as I know) is a local house rule (though one covered in the FAQ for adepticon) and not the official rule for the deployment of reserves. I can understand Paul being upset about it when called on it because he was playing according to the published rules. Augustus didn't know, though we told him about it after the tournament. I think BOTH players could have handled the disagreement better. I don't think it helps the situation with reference to "A** Clown" in the forum though, IMO.

2) So with the above stated, and Paul since you posted, what do you believe is the proper method for measuring movement? Do you believe you should be able to measure to a location, move your unit, move it back, then move to a different location? What if I played bugs and decided to do that with Genestealers?

usna92

I believe that once you move a squad and attempt to move them back things have the possibility of geting 'complicated.' With that said this is NOT what happened in this case. I measured from my squad to a point on the board and ONLY the distance that I was allowed to move, no more and no less, then I opted to go somewhere else.

Usna, you are asking me to give my opinion on a subject and instance that did not happen. Again, let me state that the only reason I even commented on this post because my name was mentioned. I think Damien phrased his question in the orginal post well. In reference to your question I think you should avoid moving models and squads as much as possible but this isn't chess and there is no 'took your finger off rule' in the book. Yet again, this is not the situation that happen in our game.

-Paul

Mannahnin, what Paul did, is exactly what he stated, which is why the quick response was a bit shocking. Now, whether you believe that is legal or not, you shouldnt immediately start calling people names.

usna92-Yup, I called it like I saw it, your boy was acting like an Ass Clown, and should have gotten his mouth shut for him. It is a game, and he didnt even give Paul a chance to either correct the move, or explain it. If there is no rule against this in the book, and noone has yet provided us with one, then Paul wasnt doing anything illegal. If you chose to measure the move that your Genestealers can make, and then without touching a model change your mind and move elsewhere, I doubt many people would say anything, and the ones that did wouldnt lead with the words; "You're a f*cking cheater" Then proceed to badmouth you the rest of the game. If they do that, then consider them to have earned "ASS CLOWN" status.

I regret this thread has degenerated into a personal attack.  I would hope that a 3rd party reader would take note of the question originally posted and recognize the impersonal and inquisitive spirit in which it was written, and the subsequent hijack of the post by later defamatory posters.  Perhaps the post can continue in the original vein it was intended, that stated, I feel obligated to defend myself and will take a moment to address specific comments:

Dakari Marine writes:

No pre-measuring is not allowed.

The rulebook/codex's tells us what we can do. If it doesnt say we can measure the range then we cant.

Dakari Marine sums up the point precisely.  The rules are exclusive, they detail what can be done, the argument, show me where it DOESN'T say I can do this does not apply.  This is a recurrent theme here on dakka, which has been proven time and again in various posts.  When a player says, show me in the rules where I can't do this, they are in effect cheating.  Thank you Dakari Marine.

Manahin writes:

IMO premeasuring movement is more powerful than pre-measuring shooting or assault. Vastly more important when it comes to general play,...

Manahin Adds great points in his detailed post on the subject, agreed.

Thunderjaw writes:

It's a little harsh... from the looks of this thread, most of the people here would have ZERO problems with Murphy's actions... yet to you it was a bigger deal...

So my question is, if you decide you over reacted, are you man enough to apologize for it?

It was harsh, I concur, but it was the gladiator, where there are no soft scores.  In like circumstances, if you witnessed someone cheating, would you not tell them so? I have no need to apologize, I meant every word I said.

Thunderjaw writes:

Augustus called Murphy a "f***ing cheater"

For the record, the openeing comment, after I saw the measurement to one location and the movement to another was: "If you do that, and move them to another spot, you are cheating, if I saw that in a regular tourney, I would zero block you." There were no colorful expletives.

Also for the record, Paul Murphy is a complete cheater, more to come.

Primarch writes:

I was actually there, and at the next table over... [AUGUSTUS] ...deserved a lot harsher reaction than the other guy gave him. I hate to say it, but if I were Augustus opponent in that round, I might have dived over the table and took his head off.

[added]

If you felt so strongly, you were oddly silent at the next table over.  Aparently the only courage you can muster is behind the keyboard from the safety of anonimity.  Perhaps because backing a cheater publicly, or leaping over a table to take someones head off, requires more stones than you have.  If the sting of this retort endures for you, I'll be waiting. Everyone knows who I am.

Now, since Paul isnt saying anything, I can assume he wants to drop it, and thats fine, but dont come to the defense of an ASS CLOWN like Augustus unless you are sure there are no witnesses, and in this case, there are.

Remember how the post started? With an honest question, no names, and no leading structure? If my accusers by "name calling" meant it was rude to call some one a cheat and say they have low character, than I am guilty.  But I offer the above quote, as evidence to who is in the wrong on that issue, and judgement, I leave to the reader.

Thunderjaw writes:

As for embarrassment. I don't think Augustus has anything to be embarressed about. Lord knows I wouldn't be. He's a competitive person, and it was the Gladiator, and thus inherently a competive event in the extreme. He either got mad and said the first thing that popped into his mind, or he truly felt he was getting cheated. I'm sure he didn't call Paul out on if for grins.

Just so, thank you thunderjaw, that is the situation exactly.

blood angel writes:

Let me preface this - I expected the question posed by Agustus to be inflamatory and it wasn't.

Thank you.

blood angel writes:

the way he handled the situation was absolutely deplorable.

That is because he is a cheater, and continues to refuse to admit it, even now, even after I permitted him to win a game in the Gladiator.  I don't negotiate what is right, I dont soften blows to those who are in the wrong.  Now, Im going to crucify him with evidence.

Paul Murphty is a cheater, here is why:

1 Paul Murphy Ran an Illegal Death Company list in the gladiator at Adepticon

by padding his points, for Deathcompany Dreadnoughts, there was a ruling in the tournament that they (DC Dreads) were to start at the points cost of Moriair and have the additional weapon options added onto them, but they werent, he bought them at the regular price and had a free dreadnought in his list essentially.  My friend was also playing BA DC and had enquired to the Adepticon authority, so I knew the list was wrong from the beginging.  Not wanting to make an issue out of it, and because I could have beaten him anyway, I agreed to play and said nothing.

2 Measuring to one spot, and choosing to move to another, is not in the explicit rules, therefore it is cheating.

3 Paul Murphy swaps models in units around after he moves them, he measured each of his models individually, was done moving the unit, and afterward, recognizing his bad, play swapped his plasma pistols models in the back of an assault squad with bolt pistols in the front so they would be closer, and refused to admit it was an error.  I continued playing after mentioning it to him as nother case of cheating, he did not correct it.

4 The deepstrike rules, he does not follow the RAW deepstrike rules, he rolled every unit and then decided what to bring on in what order, ignoring the BGB where it says they move on as soon as they are available.  We also played this his way, he rolled all units, then decided what to bring on.

5 The quadrant control rules, he cheated here as well, at the games end, he had a dreadnought that was on the line of quadrants one and 2.  I told him we had to dice for it.  He told me he got to choose which quadrant it was in for controling quadrants.  The rules state that a unit in multiple quadrants must be diced.  I conceded this too.  He cheated.

Took my lumps Paul? I allowed you to win that game, I conceded every point you cheated on, later posted an impersonal inquisitive question in an anonymous public forum I am a regular on and you and your cronies came here looking to defame me.  You may be surprised one day, what happens, when you call a judge.

Show you have gained some character since this weekend by displaying the decency to quit posting slander. 

Primarch writes:

...your boy was acting like an Ass Clown, and should have gotten his mouth shut for him.

Indeed? Keyboard courage is rampant apparently? Who is upset at me for name calling?  Your juvenile attempts at incitement actually amuse me.

Primarch writes:

It is a game, and he didnt even give Paul a chance to either correct the move, or explain it. If there is no rule against this in the book, and noone has yet provided us with one, then Paul wasnt doing anything illegal

Wrong, your argument boils down to, "just because Paul was doing something the rules don't say he cant do doesn't mean he was cheating!"  If that were true, where do the rules say I can't shove his army off the table and claim I won, show me in the book? This ironic permissive concept is an underpinning theme on these boards for some time now.  Anyone who reads regularly and posts more than your pathetic 8 posts would not even attempt such a foolish argument. I suspect you came here to post defamatory comments to ease Paul's pride and help a cheater build a case.

Paul was cheating, 5 times actually, that has been established, and therefore, you also, are backing a cheater, ignorantly or otherwise.  I suggest you demonstrate your new found respect with silence.

blood angel writes:

I will encounter him at furture tournaments and I will make sure to alert a judge about his behavior. I think it will work out for the best if someone monitors the game to protect both of our soft scores.

Understand, if I see you again across a table, you will get perfect sportsmanships scores, right until you start cheating.  I thought I made that clear?

++4 The deepstrike rules, he does not follow the RAW deepstrike rules, he rolled every unit and then decided what to bring on in what order, ignoring the BGB where it says they move on as soon as they are available. We also played this his way, he rolled all units, then decided what to bring on.

+++

That wasn't cheating. The Adepticon Faq said to play it that way.

It is impossible for most of us to take a valid stand on the situation at hand, as we were not there... however, I will say this:

Whether you were right or wrong Augustus, your attitude could stand some improvement. Tossing out the word "Cheater" doesn't automatically make you right. Likewise, your own attacks on other players here are low and un-necessary. You ask why they didn't voice their opinion when they were at the con... I'm sure they were busy enough with their own game, and decided to simply let you and paul, hopefully, solve the situation civally - I'm sure if you had asked another player to step in and give a thirdparty ruling, they would have been happy to.

If there were points of contention, and you believed Paul to be cheating, why did you concede to him? It would take all of 10 seconds to pull out the rule book and clearly show him that a unit holding two quarters must be diced for... IMO, it is wrong to concede a point so easily proven, and then come back later to call him a cheater. This probably breaks some all important argument-rule, and thus I am committing a fallacy, but wouldn't that be like a cop telling a person that it is OK to grab a loaf of bread from the corner store without paying for it, and then arresting them as they leave for robbery?

Some of your accusations cannot be proven without un-biased eye-witnesses.. a hard thing to come by, I would think... However, your accusation on reserves: Do you mean to say that he was rolling for reserves, woulld get them, but not deploy them until the next turn+ ? If so, again, why not take 10 seconds to flip open the rulebook to show him that this is clearly not allowed? If not, and you're saying he would roll for all reserves at the same time, then deploy them at the same time, he was doing it correctly as per the adepticon FAQ. In the latter case, don't you think an apology would be in order?

Again, on several of your points, we can't prove one way or another whether Paul was cheating, or you were incorrect in your thinking. But I definitely think you could conduct yourself in a better manner, and people would like you better for it. Polietly pointing out a player's mistake, and asking them to correct it is generally more likely to sit well with the offending player than calling them a cheater, especifally if expletives are used (not saying they are, but we have conflicting reports). If they don't rectify their errors, and refuse to following the clearly written rules (those that exist), why not call on a judge, or a third party player, instead of condeding to them? If you yield to a person who you think is cheating, you yourself are actually encouraging further cheating.

Just some thougths from me... take from them what you will

Regards,

~Gabe