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Yesterday I played a game in my local shop and my opponent argued that my list was incorrect.

I was fielding an army of Sisters of Battle all made of Sisters but two units: an inquisitor taken as Elite and a Callidus assassin.

The problem came because the Inquisitor was not from the Ordo Hereticus, but Malleus. Then my opponent argued that as Deamonhunters as allies are restricted to one elite option I couldn't field also the Callidus, as I was using a Deamonhunter inquisitor to allow her to be fielded and thus she was a Deamonhunter option too!

I contra argued pointing that RAW in the entry for Officium Asesinorum in the Codex Withchunter say that you must field an inquisitor -doesn't say from which ordo- to use an assassin from that Codex. Thus my Callidus is a Witch hunter option allowed to be used because a Deamon hunter inquisitor being fielded.

What do you think? It is a WH option or a DH option?

Regards

Thats a tough question that has been hotly debated before.

I personally am of the opinion that any requirements for fielding a unit must be met from the codex that that unit is taken from.

I.E. If you take a WH assassin, you must take a WH Inquisitor.


Furthermore, in the "Using Witch Hunters as allies" section (and I beileve it is the same wording for DH), there is a line that reads,
"Any compulsory choices ... must be fulfilled from the 'parent list' ..."

While not a standard "compulsory choice", as in "one HQ, two Troops", I personally believe that since you are compelled to take an Inquisitor in order to field an assassin, that that makes the Inquisitor a "compulsory choice".

But thats just my opinion.


In the end, ask yourself "Why am I taking a DH inquisitor in an otherwise exclusively WH list?"
The only reasons to do so are, (1) to be fluffy, or (2) to give Witch Hunters wargear that they normaly would not be able to take.

Is it simply so that your Witch Hunters can have a psycannon? Or is it based on the fluff you have written for your list? Or did you write the fluff to justify taking a psycannon?



My final word on the subject is that you are using the entry from one codex to fulfill the requirements of another codex. While not specifically outlawed, it seems to be a morally questionable thing to do in my opinion. And when something is questionable, its best not to do it without your oponents consent.

Ahoj!
Illegal.
Borys

Perfectly legal. Meets all stated requirements. Have fun!

aaaand to get the discussion rolling, Borys, why is it illegal?

Ahoj!
Like Blue Loki said - DH Codex Inquistor used to take WH Codex Assassin.

Borys

I generally agree with Loki on this one, though not on the ?compulsory? language.

While the Callidus? entry refers to an ?Inquisitor? in general terms, this should be understood to mean ?an Inquisitor from this codex?. Just as we understand the Hive Node rules to apply only to the controlling player?s own bugs helping his own bugs in a game between two Tyranid armies. No one actually plays it as their Tyrant making their opponent?s gaunts fearless.

Since you can only take one Elite choice as an ally, an army must take a DH Inquisitor Lord as their second HQ if they wish to get an allied Callidus from the DH codex.

There's definitely some ambiguity here.

Which means you shouldn't do it.

Posted By blue loki on 04/05/2006 7:51 AM
I personally am of the opinion that ...

</quote>I personally believe that ...But thats just my opinion.

The question is included in Yakface's article at the top of this Forum (LINK). Hopefully we will eventually get an answer.

 

As it stands, the rule is ambiguous. Not legal, yet not illegal.

You are not permitted to fulfill the requirements for fielding a specific model by using a different codex, but you are not restricted from doing so either.

 

Realistically, the only reason for doing this anyway is to give either a WH army or a DH army wargear from the opposite codex. And this sounds like an exploitation of a "rules loophole" to me.

 

Blue loki,

I reckon I took him to counter the annoying tactic of my oponnent: 9 deep striking land speeder. I give him 3 mystics and three acolytes as retinue -the acolytes to absorb casualties- and no psycannon (just a plasma pistol for auto defence) The idea is to field him near the heavy weapons squad and Exorcists and to use the special rule of the mystics to try give deep striking units a ration of lead and shot before they can shot!

Ok. I will transform him in a Grand Inquisitor (25 points more) -HQ option- and reduce one of the line SoB squads from 12 to 10 miniatures to compensate the higher point cost. Then I can use the Callidus as an Elite option of the DH and will not violate any rule.

Thanks a lot

One really good reason I know of is to open up the second HQ choice. That can be very useful in an SM army. The option of taking wargear from both codices is no real reason - you can take inquisitors from both codices anyway, the only time this situation comes up is where you want to field an assassin - and they are identical between the books.

It would also allow you to field an elite inquisitor and an assassin as allies to another imperial force without using an HQ slot. You could take one elite from each =I= list. I think it's legal RAW. But if we want to argue RAW vs. writers intent...

Mannahnin, I can't see adding words, and then basing the ruling on that. If we go down that road, many rules questions are suddenly "obvious." The rule as written requires the presence of an inquisitor - and that's it.

Codices can indeed apply to other codices - see the apostate cardinal rules in the Witchhunter book, or the infinite demon packs rule in the DH codex, as examples where one codex gives the other (opposing, in those cases) codex additional options. So again, I see no ambiguity here.

Edit:  Ok, I see the argument better now.  It appears legal since you're playing a Witch Hunters force.  A Space Marine force couldn't because of the Daemonhunters FAQ but yeah, it appears RAW compliant.  I'd say its legal.

"An Alaitoc army may select pathfinders as an Elites choice."

Now as much as I'd love to have a unit of war walkers with starcannons that are guided by a farseer and have a couple markerlights to increase the BS to 5, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't start doing that. 

Can someone explain to me why the inquisitior situation is any different to the ridiculous one I used as an example?  If the codex doesn't mention a choice as being from another codex, I don't know why you would assume you can use it.

- Oaka

Posted By Antonin on 04/05/2006 11:53 AM
Codices can indeed apply to other codices - see the apostate cardinal rules in the Witchhunter book, or the infinite demon packs rule in the DH codex, as examples where one codex gives the other (opposing, in those cases) codex additional options. So again, I see no ambiguity here.

But aren't the DH and WH Codexes explicit?
Borys

Explicit about what, Borys? I'm not following you, there.

I have no idea about how to resolve the Alaitoc example. I think it's distinguishable, because the eldar codex came out long before the Tau codex and therefore the mention to pathfinders had only one target. The WH codex came out after the DH codex, hence the reference to "inquisitors" has a pre-existing target.

Posted By skyfyre on 04/06/2006 8:27 PM

Edit: Ok, I see the argument better now. It appears legal since you're playing a Witch Hunters force. A Space Marine force couldn't because of the Daemonhunters FAQ but yeah, it appears RAW compliant. I'd say its legal.

The DH FAQ has been overwritten - there's a newer printing of the DH codex, which does not contain the language int eh FAQ. In fact, the new version exactly tracks the WH language. Thus, the DH FAQ limit is inapplicable.

Out of curiosity, does the reprinted DH codex specify it's a second printing? Or is it a "stealth reprint" like what was done with IG and the entry for servitors (where there is no version number or any other indication that it's an update to earlier codices).

If it is a stealth reprint, it would be pretty hard to claim that it overwrites the FAQ.

The only difference is that the newest printing was printed in China and not the UK.

So is there any actual rule that says that it's illegal? Because I don't get why it would be.

"An Officio Assassinorum opterative may only be chosen if an Inquisitor Lord or Inquisitor is also part of the force." And that's it. There's nothing there about where the Inquistior is supposed to come from. You must have an Inquisitor. It doesn't say which Ordo the Inquistor is supposed to come from. It is legal to take an Inquisitor from another Ordo. What's the problem?

The problem is simply that the rules within a codex apply only to that codex, unless specifically listed as being otherwise.

If the Daemonhunter codex presents rules for an Inquisitor, those rules apply only to Inquisitors selected from the Daemonhunters codex, unless there is a rule that specifically says otherwise.

In the case of the Assassin, the rule in the DH codex says an Inquisitor is required. Since that rule is listed in the DH Codex, it applies to DH Inquisitors. Likewise, the rule in the WH codex says an Inquisitor is required. Since that rule is listed in the WH Codex, it applies to WH Inquisitors.

The fact that the rules are identical, and the units share the same name, is irrelevant. Since they come from different codexes they are NOT the same unit. For the DH Inquisitor and WH Assassin (or Vice Versa) to be legal, either codex would have to spcifically state that the Inquisitor can be from any Inquisitorial codex.

The alternative leads to Tau Pathfinders in an Eldar army...

Maybe it is legal for Eldar to field Tau.

But that's not exact. Nowhere in the Codex Eldar is allowed to field Tau pathfinders.

However in Codex DH you can field WH options and vice versa.

Mind that accepting your interpretation of the rules you would be allowed to field 2 assassins.

First you take a Lord Inquisitor as HQ option from DH codex. Then you take a Lord Inquisitor from the WH Codex (allied or main list, that's irrelevant for the example).

Second: you field one Assassin from DH codex (it is 0-1 option in that codex) then you can take a second assassin as elite option from WH codex. Ok. I know is 0-1, but as it is from another Codex I don't violate nothing.

Hummmm.... That could be the way to have a Cullexus and a Callidus in the same army. Nasty.

Following your way to interpretate how allied WH and DH inter acts allows for that kind of absurdum.

However being RAW you can't. One inquisitor -no matter from where- allows for one Assassin. That's it. Its not about codex but about how Inquisition and Officio Assesinorum interacts per rules.

But that's not exact. Nowhere in the Codex Eldar is allowed to field Tau pathfinders.

However in Codex DH you can field WH options and vice versa.

Yes, the DH Codex allows specific options from other Codexes. That doesn't mean that DH rules apply to other Codexes... it merely allows you to take certain units from them.

Mind that accepting your interpretation of the rules you would be allowed to field 2 assassins.

Indeed you would. Given that Assassins are really not worth the points in their current incarnation, I'm not seeing that as a problem.

Let me summarise my thought

P1: Per RAW, you must to field an Inquisitor to be allowed an Assassin.

P2: Also per RAW you can take in your WH force an inquisitor from DH.

C: You can field an assassin even if your Inquisitor is an elite option from DH as, per rules, the nature of the inquisitor is not relevant to comply with P1.

The WH Codex -nor DH either- specifies nothing about the inquisitor being required. If they would have require a specific inquisitor the rule should read: "An Assassin in a WH Army only can be fielded as an elite option from this Codex if you take first a Witchhunter Inquisitor"

That would be pretty clear and without room to discussion.

But that's not the way the rule is written. The rule doesn't say which Ordos the inquisitor must be. It only say that if you want to field an Assassin from WH 'dex you must have at least one inquisitor in your army.

Of course, we can discuss the usefulness of Assassins in their current incarnation -but a combination of Cullexus and Callidus could be really nasty... think she has a Str8 weapon that wounds against leadership and has FP1... and the Cullexus lows the leadership of any unit at 12" from him to L7... really awesome even if would cost 215 pts taking both of them-.

P1: Per RAW, you must to field an Inquisitor to be allowed an Assassin.

P2: Also per RAW you can take in your WH force an inquisitor from DH.

You left out:

P3: The rules in a given codex apply only to units selected from that codex.

Nothing in the codex suggests that the rules from one codex apply to units from another, no matter whether their names are the same or not.

Since the rules don't say that you CAN use rules from one codex for units from another, you therefore can not. Therefore any reference in Codex DH to an 'Inquisitor' refers only to a DH Inquisitor.

There is simply no other way to play it and keep the rules making any sort of sense. By yor interpretation, we have the Pathfinders in Eldar Army, we have Space Wolf armies taking HQs from any list they please (it doesn't, after all, specify that the required HQs must be from the Space Wolves list...), and we have Daemonhunter Inquisitors selecting items from the Witch Hunters armoury, accompanied by a WH retinue...

You can't pick and choose which rules you are going to use from which codex. You select a codex, you build an army from it. Units selected from a different codex follow the rules from their own codex, and do not count towards any compulsory requirements from any other codex.

If you can find rules that say otherwise, feel free to post them.

Why couldn't one of the SW's mandatory HQ choices be an ally? Are SW unable to take allies? That's a DA thing, and the SW hate the DA.

Posted by The Crawling Chaos on 04/08/2006 9:14 PM
Why couldn't one of the SW's mandatory HQ choices be an ally?

Because both Codex Daemonhunters and Codex Witch Hunters specify that compulsory slots on the Force Organization chart must be filled from the 'parent' army list.

However, an assassin only requires an Inquisitor and not a compulsory HQ choice.

Posted By insaniak on 04/08/2006 5:51 PM

You left out:

P3: The rules in a given codex apply only to units selected from that codex.

But I am not applying rules from DH to WH nor vice versa. I am applying rules from WH to WH... and they says that an Inquisitor is required to field an Assassin.

Nothing in the codex suggests that the rules from one codex apply to units from another, no matter whether their names are the same or not.

Again we don't disagree. But, again, the rules applied to WH are the rules from WH, not from DH.

Since the rules don't say that you CAN use rules from one codex for units from another, you therefore can not. Therefore any reference in Codex DH to an 'Inquisitor' refers only to a DH Inquisitor.

Not. Nowhere in the rules says so.

There is simply no other way to play it and keep the rules making any sort of sense. By yor interpretation, we have the Pathfinders in Eldar Army, we have Space Wolf armies taking HQs from any list they please (it doesn't, after all, specify that the required HQs must be from the Space Wolves list...), and we have Daemonhunter Inquisitors selecting items from the Witch Hunters armoury, accompanied by a WH retinue...

Again is a false proposition. Neither in SW dex nor in Eldar or Tau they have allowed to use any troops from the other armies. However WH and DH are allowed to take units -between certain limits- one from the other.

You can't pick and choose which rules you are going to use from which codex. You select a codex, you build an army from it. Units selected from a different codex follow the rules from their own codex, and do not count towards any compulsory requirements from any other codex.

Again we disagree, because you are not taking in consideration that: a) I am not taking an illegal choice fielding a DH inquisitor in a WH army; b) the only pre requisite to use an assassin is to field one inquisitor.

However I will take the path of less resistance and will field one Lord Inquisitor instead a normal one. 25 points is not such a big deal to make so much fuss about it!

Regards