Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It is possibleto take obliterators and Possessed as infiltrators if you are using an Alpha Legion army?

Chaos Codex p. 40 "Any Alpha Legion Chaos Space Marine in power armour (or Daemon armour) on foot may have the Infiltration skill at a cost of +5 points for independent characters or +1 point per other model. The Infiltration skill does not count toward their maximum number of skills."

The first sentence seems to say that both oblits and possessed are allowed to infiltrate because they qualify as 1) an Alpha Legion Chaos Space Marine, and 2) are on foot and wearing power armour or Demon armour.

What say you fellows?

SoS

Posted by Sonofsigmar on 04/08/2006 12:21 AM
The first sentence seems to say that both oblits and possessed are allowed to infiltrate because they qualify as 1) an Alpha Legion Chaos Space Marine, and 2) are on foot and wearing power armour or Demon armour.

Uh, no it doesn't. Check out the names given to the units in the army list. Only one of them is called 'Chaos Space Marines'.

Well actually it is pretty clear "Chaos Space Marine" is refering to the entire codex, not the specific unit entry as it specifically states that independent characters can take the skill for 5 points, and last I checked there are no independent characters under the unit entry "Chaos Space Marine".

Also by your logic Chosen and Havocs would be excluded from taking the skill, which I am pretty sure they are not.

SoS

I think the real question is the definition of power armor: can you prove that Tactical Dreadnought/Terminator armor is the same as power armor?

Of course, for that matter, can we prove that power armor is indeed power armor?

"I think the real question is the definition of power armor: can you prove that Tactical Dreadnought/Terminator armor is the same as power armor?"

No. It is not the same. But who is talking about termies? I would say that Terminators do not get infiltrate as they have neither power armour or demonic armour.

"Of course, for that matter, can we prove that power armor is indeed power armor?"

I certainly hope so.

SoS

As pointed out, none of the units are listed in the codex as having 'power armour' or 'daemon armour'. A 3+ or 2+ save on the unit's profile does not indicate that they have either of those two armour types.

okay, lets not get into that sillyness again.

I am not here to debate wether terminators get terminator armour.

The question remains can these two units use the infiltrate rule.

And if you really want to play the silly armour game. Obliterators specifically state that they wear Daemon Armour. So the question is can they infiltrate?

Chaos Codex p.27 "Obliterators have the following Daemonic Gifts: Daemonic Aura and Daemonic Armour "

SoS

 

Edit: added quote

But as has already been stated, nowhere does it say that they're 'Chaos Space Marines', does it? Not everything in the codex is a 'Chaos Space Marine'.

Yeah, an obvious example of that is Nurglings. Are Nurglings Chaos Space Marines? No. Then not everything in the codex is a Chaos Space Marine.

1. "Possessed Chaos Space Marines" chaos Codex p.26

2. Chaos Codex p. 25 under "Transport: Chaos Rhino ... Transport: The Chaos Rhino can carry up to 10 Chaos Space Marines. Note that it cannot transport terminators, obliterators, raptors, daemons or models with Daemonic Stature."

if the following units were not chaos space marines, why list them as what they cannot transport.

Show me were it says that not everything in the codex is a chaos space marine. Under the special rules on P12 it makes a distinction between Daemons and CSMs. Other then that there is no reason not to think that anything not listed as daemonic is not a CSM.

The name of the Codex is Codex Chaos Space Marines, they take weapons and wargear from the Chaos Space Marine Armoury. P21 defines the Chaos Space Marine Army List "This section of the book is given over to the Chaos Space Marine army list, a listing of the different troops and vehicles a chaos lord can use in battle...it also provides you with the basic information you'll require to field a Chaos Space Marine Army..."

It seems to me that everything in the book is a chaos space marine.

SoS

Crawling Chaos:

Nurglings are defined as daemons, and daemons have their own page of seperate rules outside of chaos space marines.

I am glad to see everyone is getting caught up in semantics and refusing to address my main question.

SoS

They are; you're just pissed that they aren't jumping up and saying, "Why, what a great, wonderful, intelligent boy you are! Have a cookie!"

As for the semantics, you're pretty caught up in them yourself, so get ready to duck stones in that see-through house of yours.

No, there arguement thus far has come down to a couple points.
1) they are not the specific Chaos Space Marines as designated by the unit entry title.

This means the following units are also not Chaos space marines, Chaos Lord, Chaos lieutenant, Chosen, Possessed chaos Space Marines, Obliterators, Chaos Raptors, Chaos Space Marine Bikes, Chaos Havocs, Chaos predator, Chaos dreadnough and finally the chaos land raider. This to me doesn't seem right because many of the entries specifically reference the unit as chaos space marines. There are other units, of course, but they are clearly defined as demons and thus seperate from CSMs.

2) Who wears power and or demonic armour is not defined, it simply states that a model has a 2+, or a 3+ save.

This is an old topic and one I would rather not drag out again. furthermore it does state in direct and non direct ways that the models in question as well as many others do in fact wear power/daemonic armour.

I got caught uo in the semantics in an effort to stop them. I don't like rules lawyering on this level. There are I think several arguements against these units having infiltration, I would just like to see some arguements supported by rules, not just categorical issues.

SoS

I was just making the point that not everything in the book is a Chaos Space Marine.

But after looking at the codex, I'm inclined to say that you can give them infiltrate. Here's why. Ghaz's argument is that because it says you can give the infiltrate skill to Chaos Space Marines, that it only effects the unit that is actually called "Chaos Space Marines." (It was probably a bad idea to give a unit in the army the same name as the entire army, but that's GW for you.) But if it were meant just for the troop unit called Chaos Space Marines and not the models in the army Chaos Space Marines, then why would there be a point cost for independant characters? It isn't possible to get an independant character with the troop choice "Chaos Space Marines." So it must be open to more than just that unit. And if that is the case, then we go to the other restrictions. On foot, and with power armor or daemon armor. Obliterators are explicitly on foot and wearing daemon armor, so they should be able to get it. Possessed have power armor, so if they aren't mounted, they should be able to get it.

If the possessed get daemonic flight though, they can't get infiltrate, because it goes against the restrictions in the codex (assuming the restrictions are still valid).

Yet another How to Cheat thread. Okay let's blame it on GW.

Hmm... Trying to figure out what the rules say, so that you can then play by those rules. Yeah, that's totally cheating, BloodyT. Good call there.

How is this a "how to cheat thread"?

It is a legitimate question. Did GW design it to allow for these units to infiltrate. The thing that throws me off is the fact that they spelled it out in the alpha legion rules as to who could and who could not take Alpha infiltration. There are already restrictions on who can and cannot infiltrate, so if GW did not want these units to do so, why didn't they just give the alpha legion a price reduction on infiltration? That would have made it so only units that could normally take the infiltration skill, would get to use it. With the wording now, the only two units it could apply to are the possessed and oblits.

Here is the wording; Chaos Codex P19 Infiltrate"...Models with a Bike, a Steed, Followers, Demonic Stature, the Mark of Khorne or Terminator armour cannot use this skill."

So this would leave no statured lords, Lieutenants, Non-terminator chosen, Chaos Space Marines, Raptors, and Havocs of course no-one gets mark of khorne.

Now the Alpha Legion Wording Chaos Codex p. 40 "Any Alpha Legion Chaos Space Marine in power armour (or Daemon armour) on foot may have the Infiltration skill at a cost of +5 points for independent characters or +1 point per other model. The Infiltration skill does not count toward their maximum number of skills."

From this we can include Statured Lords, Lieutenants, non terminator chosen, Chaos Space Marines, Possessed, Oblits, and Havocs. (I don't believe raptors would count as on foot)

There are differences to the list outside of the possessed and oblits. Namely the infiltrating statured lord. The distinctly different wording leads me to assume that they were meant to be included. Besides try to convince me that having possessed or obiterators infiltrating is somehow more powerful then an infiltrating statured lord tooled out, likely with demonic speed. Last to set up, and first turn charge. Brutal.

SoS

Raptors are on foot. So are possessed with flight. What isn't on foot are mounted units (Bike units and units with a transport vehicle).

Lets not forget that the infiltrate rule in the codex is supposed to be hidden behind black ink. (I recently took an infiltrating Khorne army to the ?Tournament of Cheese? and won the cheesy army award for my efforts.)

Oh, and I am inclined to think that under the Alpha infiltrate rule Oblits and Possessed can infiltrate. I wouldn?t have thought it until seeing this discussion.

Sorry for the interruption. Please continue with your regularly scheduled program.

First, let me start with this:

Now that that's over with...

I think this might fall into one of those 'the sportsman in me tells me to take the less advantageous interpretation' situations.  I can't specifically counter your argument, because of that stupid word all that GW insists on using.  Here's a different argument that seems pretty solid:

Pg. 12 of the codex, under Veteran Skills states:

"The army list entries specify which caracters and units may have Veteran skills.  Models with no Mark of Chaos may have any number of skills, whilst models with a Mark may only have one.  All models in a unit must have the same skills, including any character they form the retinue of.  Skills conferred by a list entry or which are automatic to members of a certain Legion or bearers of a particular Mark of Chaos do not count toward the maximum number of skills."

So, the Alpha Legion rule that states that any model in power or daemonic armor may take infiltrate directly contradicts the rule for veteran skills stating that we must look to a unit's entry to see if that unit may have a veteran skill (1st sentence).  In addition, the last sentence tells us how Legion specific skills interact within this framework - however, no exclusion is made for a unit that can not get a skill to begin with.

Additionally, the specific unit entry for Possessed disallows them from ever being given a vet skill (pg 26, second paragraph under the Options section).

While I can not, with 100% certainty, tell you that it's illegal to give Alpha Possessed or Obliterators the Infiltrate skill; I can say that it seems quite unsportsmanly to do so because it is taking the greater of the two possible interpretations that can be found in the codex.

KW

While I can not, with 100% certainty, tell you that it's illegal to give Alpha Possessed or Obliterators the Infiltrate skill; I can say that it seems quite unsportsmanly to do so because it is taking the greater of the two possible interpretations that can be found in the codex.

This brings up an interesting question - how many special rules are there that contradict a "regular" rule, but do not explicitly tell you to disregard that rule in favour of the special rule?

Skyth: I thought so as well, but didn't want to start a different debate altogether on raptors.

pheobus29: No idea what you are on about. Behind the black ink?

kwade: First off thank you for your well thought out and supported post. This is what I was looking for, not "no one wears power armour" nonsense.

Secondly, at first glance I agree with you about the sportsmanship approach. But I would also blanche at the idea of an infiltrating Statured Prince with Wings or Speed. That same sportsman would say "that's not the intention of the rules". But then I am left with the differences between normal and Alpha Infiltration descriptions. What exactly is their purpose or intent? It doesn't seem very clear.

Was the Alpha Legion rules written as a simple price reduction for the Infiltration skill? If so why not simple say that and not have different language in the text.

Were the rules written to just allow a statured prince to infiltrate? Again possible, but who really knows.

Or were the rules written to allow units that would not normally be allowed to infiltrate (possessed, oblits, statured princes) to infiltrate, thus fitting in with the rest of the army?

These are the only three interpretations I can come up with to explain what this is supposed to mean. Of the three, I am trying to figure out which one is the correct interpretation.

Xerxes: You are right of course. And I think it is the crux of the debate. Do the legion specific rules override codex specfic rules concerning skills.

SoS

I'd side on the no for either; Oblits can't have veteran skills at all and possessed are flat out prohibited from having them in the first place. Altho one would try to argue that the alpha legion ruleset would override this, i'd have to say uh-uh, for the same reason that there is no special rule that would allow terminators to infiltrate, none would let possessed or oblits to have skills they wouldn't normally be allowed to have.

That is what I get for trying to be cute.
All I was saying was that the infiltration rule in the chaos codex, or any other codex for that matter, is null and void, overwritten by the universal rule in the BGB. Therefore, for the time being, all restrictions to infiltration on models with the Mark of Khorne, statured princes, terminators and bikes are non-existanct for chaos since the only place the put these restrictions were in the Infiltration rule.

Beard? Oh, yes.
I only played it because that was the theme of the tournament.
I would never do it again. (Except it was so fun!!!)

So, my first response to you without reading your post was that Oblits and possessed could not infiltrate because they did not have access to veteran skills. But, your case is completely different. In your case you should be able to infiltrate bikes, statured princes, possessed, and oblits, not because the rule was overridden by the BGB but because your Alpha legion rule appears to allow it. Others have made convincing arguments that these things are chaos marines, and they don't have terminator armour.

Now you can infiltrate terminators, but you have to pay the 3 points for it.

"I'd side on the no for either; Oblits can't have veteran skills at all and possessed are flat out prohibited from having them in the first place. Altho one would try to argue that the alpha legion ruleset would override this, i'd have to say uh-uh, for the same reason that there is no special rule that would allow terminators to infiltrate, none would let possessed or oblits to have skills they wouldn't normally be allowed to have."

I tried to present the same point in that word bearers can take nurglings. The general consensus is army rule such as an alpha legion rule is general, oblits cannot take them which is specific. General loses to specific, therefore no infiltrating oblits.

Posted By pheobus29 on 04/10/2006 10:45 AM
 Therefore, for the time being, all restrictions to infiltration on models with the Mark of Khorne, statured princes, terminators and bikes are non-existanct for chaos since the only place the put these restrictions were in the Infiltration rule.

Check out the Chaos FAQ...Termies are prohibited from infiltrating

Posted By pheobus29 on 04/10/2006 10:45 AM
Therefore, for the time being, all restrictions to infiltration on models with the Mark of Khorne, statured princes, terminators and bikes are non-existanct for chaos since the only place the put these restrictions were in the Infiltration rule.
Check out the Chaos FAQ...Termies are prohibited from infiltrating

even though the chaos codex says you cannot take infiltrate with the mark of khorne as well some people still try to argue. Some will argue anything I guess.

Right you are. The FAQ does have a reference to terminators not being able to have the infiltration skill.
Good catch.

My codex doesn't say that models with the mark of khorne can not take infiltrate. It used to, but the BGB told me to cross it out. Seriously though, I only used it for a themed tournament... the "Tournament of Cheese." But, if the next FAQ roles around and they do not fix that I would consider it fair game by any standards.

It said "cross it out." Really?

pg. 74, BGB - "The following unit special rules are the definitive versions, and replace special rules of the same name printed in full in Codexes."

So, yeah, the codex version in full is replaced by the BGB version, including the Codex restrictions.