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Forgive me if this has been hashed over before and I just missed it.  I was just sitting around running some numbers and decided to share.

Okay, first the givens and then the findings...  

Flamers - I think everyone can agree that flamers are better for any kind of anti-horde work.  Flamers also give better chances at scoring Torrent of Fire hits, even though they have to be resolved one at a time.

Plasma/Melta - Again, everyone can agree that these weapons are better at taking down big things like vehicles, MC, termies, etc...  Plasma, of course, has the downside of possibly losing you a guy from misfire.

With their short range, any of these systems need to be on some kind of delivery system - so I'm concentrating on Assault Squads (where you have the choice of either x2 Plasma Pistols or x2 Flamers) and Tac Squads (x2 Meltaguns or x2 Flamers and access to Transports).

Also a given - any force needs to be able to deal with both kinds of targets - hard and horde.

So, given all of the above, assuming you've got a list that can effectively deal with hard targets and hordes of lesser targets, which is the better option?

The best yardstick that we all seem to fall back on is Meq's, because the T4, 3+ save targets are so prevallent and need to be dealt with on a regular basis.  I've always gone on the opinion that the plasma/meltas are better at the job, but now I'm not so sure.

The statistics:

Meq fireing plasma or melta at Meq:

no cover: 2/3 chance to hit; 5/6 chance to wound with no save = 10/18 dead marines/shot

5+ cover: 2/3 chance to hit; 5/6 chance to wound; 2/3 chance of a failed cover save = 10/27 dead marines/shot

Flamer - start with the stats for a single hit and work up from there.

1 model hit = 1/6 dead marines (1/2 wound x 1/3 chance of a failed save = 1/6)

2 models hit = 2/6 or 1/3 dead marines

3 models hit = 3/6 or 1/2 dead marines <-- note: we can change this to 10/30 or 9/18 for comparison purposes

4 models hit = 4/6 or 2/3 dead marines <-- again, for comparison this can be changed to 18/27 or 12/18.

So, what's this tell us?  Well, if you can touch at least 3 Meq's with the flamer template, then you're just slightly less likely to kill a guy then if you were shooting a plasma/melta.  If you can touch at least 4 Meq's with a flamer template, your odds of generating kills actually outstrips the plasma/melta scenario (especially when hitting an enemy in cover, which just happens to be where the flamer is most likely to get a high number of hits - shooting at a squad that's bunched up to fit inside a piece of terrain).

Just some food for thought if, like me, you're torn between the two options for a squad or two.

Kev

Ah yes, but a flamer's range is less than 12".  At that range, King Plasmagun fires twice.  Without cover:

Plasmagun: 4/3 hit, 10/9 wound

Flamer: X hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 of those fail save
            or 10/9 = 1/6 * X
            X = 20/3, or roughly 7 hits for the flamer to = the plasmagun.

Of course, the flamer can't melt and kill you, but it also can't kill monstrous creatures and vehicles.  The plasmagun is the obvious choice, but the flamer provides players in comp tournaments with an oft-underestimated alternative, I'll give you that.

I love flamers. Here's why:

Two or three squads with flamers makes you immune to Orks, horde-nids, IG, Alaitoc ranger swarms, Guardian or walking Aspect Eldar (all of these things are surprisingly common still).

They're still fairly good against marines, to boot. I very regularly will get 7-8 hits with my flamers, occasionally more. Getting 4+ is easy with drop pods.

I use power fists and assault cannons to monsters, and flamers for hordes. As opposed to plasma for everything.

I don't really think flamers in a marine list have a place outside of drop pods though, tbh. Too short of a range, and it's often difficult to get a good bead.

Meltas/Plasmas on tacs. Flamers on assault marines. Simple.

The big problem is getting flamers into position to fire. Assault Marines, with the 12" move do that nicely.

On a tac squad, unless you're putting them in Rhinos (in which case you've got bigger problems than deciding how to equip them) plasmas or meltas are a better choice.

@ sapphon - the reason I left the plasmagun off the list is that it has one HUGE shortcoming, you can't shoot and assault in the same turn. Not to mention that the assault squad can't get them. Best option for small drop squads to give you a big alpha strike is undoubtably the twin plas, I have to question it for any squad that you gear for assault though.

@ C99 - This swayed me to the same conclusion about the assault load-out. What about a drop tac squad though? I've got 8 guys, a powerfist vet, and then I can either go for the twin meltas or the twin flamers and frag grenades (yes, he said frag grenades on a tac squad... ). I've already got another 8-man dropping tac with pfist and twin meltas, and I'm one whole point shy in a pretty tight list from being able to upgrade the flamer & frags (24 points) to meltas (25 points). The problem I see isn't so much the turn I drop (either loadout could be targetted at the best target for the squad), it's after that when they're on the hoof.

It might just have to come down to playing around with the different variations I can come up with to see what works for me and what doesn't work.

on assault squads, from my experience this is a no brainer-flamers

give your sarge a power fist or stick some melta bombs in the squad to deal with vehicles and monsterous creatures, add that to the flamers and you deal equally well with both threats.

 

i love flamers, i do not have to roll to hit and they can cover/touch 5+ models if they are packed in tight. that gives me the possiblity of 5+ dead enemies to possibly 1 or 2 instana kills. and it ignores cover for those thin skinned armies.

This thread has inspired me to try flamers. I have always overlooked the math and chosen melta instead. I am definitely going to try the flamers and save points doing it.

Darrian

Kwade - On drop tacs, I could see it working, and being somewhat valuable. But like you said, its likely to be a one-shot deal.

Also keep in mind some armies do better with flamers than others. Sisters, for example, can take 2 flamers/squad(4 in a Dominion Squad), and one of them(except in Dominions) can be a Heavy Flamer. Plus, Divine Guidance will get you some AP1 wounds with them, too.

Here is what I love about these type posts. Sure flamers are better at killing hordes then a melta, but you totally left out the ability to kill vehicles with them.

It's huge to watch a land raider die to a tac squad with a melta.

A mix of meltas and flamers is best. Some 2 flamer squads, some 2 meltas.

For drop pods, anyway.

Most of my flamer squads make back their points very well. Sometimes I think 2 squads would be enough though, tbh.

Posted By celticpride4246 on 04/08/2006 6:35 PM
Here is what I love about these type posts. Sure flamers are better at killing hordes then a melta, but you totally left out the ability to kill vehicles with them.

It's huge to watch a land raider die to a tac squad with a melta.

Check the original post...

Posted By Centurian99 on 04/08/2006 5:06 PM
Kwade - On drop tacs, I could see it working, and being somewhat valuable. But like you said, its likely to be a one-shot deal.

Yup, agree 100%.  Since I'm going drop light, only taking two pods to support my other elements, those two pods are going to be 'problem solvers' and decoys.  When a decked out, 8-man tac squad drops in your firebase (or behind your forward moving horde) you've got two options: engage them (meaning things are moving away from my firebase or firepower is being directed away from said firebase) or ignore them (in which case I'll gladly wreck havok on everything and anything they can get to).

 

two of my assault-oriented tac squads have a sarge w/ a power sword and a flamer. They're very inexpensive 5-man teams, and they allow me to make tactically flexible decisions regarding their overall purpose in each game. 3 bolters, a flamer, and a bolt pistol in shooting doesn't sound scary at all, but when that 5-man squad also gets 6 base attacks (2 of which ignore saves) along with the "suffer not the unclean to live" vow for my templars (meaning they have preferred enemy rule for ANY opponent in H2H), as well as being fearless, all for a mere 101 points, they seem a lot more threatening.

The point I'm trying to make, is that flamers are incredibly efficient for short-ranged/urban combat. They are even better if you're in an enemy trench system (good times...).

I however, disagree with giving 2 flamers to an Assault Squad. I guess its more of a personal taste, but those 5 soldiers often have the most suicidal job in any game I play them in. I'm not opposed to giving them one flamethrower, but I always make sure they have at least one plasma pistol to pose a minor threat to light vehicle and suits (I play Tau a lot). At the very least, those 15 points of pistol will act as a psychological agent, making my opponent think twice before sending a group of his better units or a light vehicle to deal with me, even though the real threat lies in their meltabombs.

CK

Also keep in mind some armies do better with flamers than others. Sisters, for example, can take 2 flamers/squad(4 in a Dominion Squad), and one of them(except in Dominions) can be a Heavy Flamer. Plus, Divine Guidance will get you some AP1 wounds with them, too

Dont bring sisters into the argument. its a completely different ball game.

KWade, if you're going drop light...I think I'd stay away from flamers. Especially if you've got an assault squad that would make much better use of them. I'd probably stick with meltas - the easiest way for you to get good returns on a squad or two of dropping Marines is to go for small, but high-value targets, like ICs, heavy vehicles, etc. Meltaguns are better at that, since they cack vehicles much better, and the S8 will autokill most ICs and the like (since to target an IC, all you have to do is make him the closest target.

I agree with C99. If you aren't going drop heavy then meltaguns are a better choice. However, although I normally avoid mixing weaponry, a melta/flamer combo on fist toting squads aint bad for a couple of 'problem solver' units. The MEq kills is still considerable, the anti horde is still there (remember the 11 or so S4 AP5 shots) and there's still a bit of AP1 goodness.

For drop heavy though, flamers are golden. My twin flamer squads have been my best performers, even against MEq. Its is pretty easy to get maximum coverage on the drop, even with scatter and then you're looking at more kills then plasma with no chance of overheat (which my plasma ususally does).

as a usefull example of flamers;

my ravenwing VS sisters;

i run 2 flamers in each bike unit-one biker unit droped 2 flame templates on one of his HQ's, that alone killed half the HQ and then the rest of the  bikes with TL bolt rifles and the attached heavy bolter bike did the rest...with a little extra fire support from a second bike unit.