Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

With regards to Magnus warning the Emperor of Horus' Intentions there was this snippit:

Unknown to Magnus, the Golden Throne was a hidden webportal to the galaxy spanning webway, and destroying its defences allowed daemons to attack the Imperial Palace.

I have never heard this before! Does anyone know of a source for this info?

Somebody made that up. The Golden Throne was built for the Emperor when he was wounded by Horus.

Oddly, though, I can't see why there wouldn't be a Webway portal on Earth. After all, we were created by the Old Ones, so it's likely they'd need a way to get here............

I like the Idea of the golden throne being more that a giant deathbed. the emporer sure had a throne before he was wounded

Its from the latest (totally crap) version of the Horus Heresy by Alan Merrit for the Horus Heresy Game Cards...truly sucks!

the fluff or the game?

JLMB, would you please reference the fluff that says the Old Ones had any hand in the creation of humanity.  I'd like to know how they did that 60 million years after the C'tan wiped them out.  I don't remember the source, but I know I've read a peice that had an Eldar seer specifically say that the Old Ones where not responsible for humanities creation, that they were just a product of unmanipulated evolution.

Anung, I believe I've also read somewhere that the Golden Throne is a becon for the astropaths to find there way through the warp.  The Emperors body has been destroyed, but his psychic powers, and warp presence are still kicking.

The "beacon" that you're referring to is the Astronomicon.  I forget exactly how it works, but it has something to do with a "choir" of thousands of bound psykers channeling their energy into the beacon, and the Emperor is somehow necessary to it.  The Astronomicon, if I can remember correctly, is the only means of navigation while travelling through the Warp.

djones, there's one bit from the necron codex which comes out and says it:

"In this power vacuum the lesser creations of the Old Ones, such as the Mon Keigh, developed in unforeseeable ways"

So they did initially create the humans, but weren't responsible for what happened to them afterwards (apparently it's hinting that the pariah gene may have been added by the Necrons).

we're assuming, of course, that Mon Keigh means Human, and that they were a lesser creation of the old ones. Nobody, sorry to say but thats not evidence. It doesn't say
""In this power vacuum the lesser creations of the Old Ones, such as the Humans, developed in unforeseeable ways"

For all we know, Mon Keigh could be orks, we know they were probably created by another race, and are definatly an akwardly developed race.

Well, unless GW is planning on releasing Codex: Planet of the Apes anythime soon, I think its safe to assume that it was the humans that developed from the Mon Keigh.

Would not the orks have developed from the Fun Guy?


Ahhhhh, I kill me...

Yamatoshi,

I've never seen fluff anywhere that has the Eldar refer to Orks as Mon-keigh. The only race that is referred to as mon-keigh are humans, and given the context of that piece of fluff there's no reason to think they are referring to any other race.

I'm not saying it was the orks, I'm saying we don't know what it is. It could be a race we don't even know about. The codex doesn't come out and say "The old ones made humans". It says "the old ones made Mon-Keigh" which developed in "unforeseeable ways". Unless more solid proof is shown that the Mon-Keigh are Humans, its not necessarily true. Unless there is an eldar translation that states something such as "Mon-Keigh in our language means HUMAN" then the point is moot.

The Eldar use "mon-keigh" to refer to two races. One was a brutish ape-like race the Eldar exterminated. The other is humans (if you'd like, I can post several examples from fluff when I get home).

Of course, if you can honestly think that an entire article talking about culexus assassins can end with a Farseer talking about how orks evolved in dangerous ways, more power to you...

alright, thats fine. If thats what they refer to it makes more sense, but all you did was state that quote, I had no more knowledge but that quote. Adding the information about eldar referring two races to Mon-keigh changes things and it now makes more sense.

I hope you understand where I was coming from, that quote by itself was simply not enough information to support the argument by itself.

naw it's cool, I had done the stream of consciousness thing because I had posted about that fluff in the "the C'tan" thread below and for some reason in my head I linked this thread and that one.

nobody,

Was the "brutish ape-like race the Eldar exterminated" supposed to be a reference to the Neandertal?

Could be, not much time was spent on the whos/whys/hows/wheres of the race though. That bit was on the last page of the Eldar codex.

I thought the Eldar name for humans was Chem-Pan-Sey
and there is some race in the necron codex, I think the name is Krork or someting, which was created by the old ones. could be orks

I believe the krork did eventually become the orks, but I don't think I've ever seen a reference to a race called "chem-pan-sey." Do you remember where you saw that?

 

EDIT:  Just googled the term and it comes up on the german sites.  My guess is that's the term for Mon-Keigh in the German books?

maybe that's only in the german name. you read it a lot in the german eldar codex and they even use it Dawn of War.
by the way. Chem-Pan-Sey sound kinda like the german word for this liittle monkeys. chimps, I think.

what was this post about originally?? i forgot

The bit at the end of the eldar codex says that the eldar use the word 'mon-keigh' to refer to ANY race they see as brutal, uncouth and 'below' them.

Also, I took the comment in the necron codex about the origin of humanity to mean that the old ones started life on earth (primordial ooze etc.), and that the 'unforseen development' was the fact that these single celled organisms evolved into the galaxy's dominant race. I agree that the necrons may have messed with human evolution to create the pariah gene.

The krork are definately orks - they're referred to as 'hardy' and 'green-skinned'.

This post was originally about the golden throne being a webway portal, but that question got answered so we moved onto a more interesting discussion lol

ps - merrit's new heresy fluff sUx a$$

The Chem-pan-sey part was sarcasm, a reference to the rather uncreative Mon-kegh (Monkey) used to describe eldar. I really thing mon-kegh is just a derogitory term for anything non-eldar, like twist is in the Imperium to mean a mutant.

Wait are you sure the Old ones created humans? cause I've found reference to the Eldar talking about humanity still bein far primative than the others

Yes, the old ones created Humans, or atleast our ancestors, during their wars with the star-gods.

While it is strange that this new fluff has the golden throne already built its still a magnificent edition to the hersy mythology imo. The fact that the Emperor sent the Wolves to attack Magnus proved that he did not see pursuing sorcery and warp travel as safe for humanity. It makes perfect sense that he was looking for an alternative method of travel. The throne change is a bit lame, but its pretty minor in itself. And the point with a game like 40k is the fluff is always evolving, and its rarely ever static for very long. The custodian guard and sisters of silence were fighting a massive daemonic incursion into the Emperor's vaults through a weakened part of webway, all while Horus was up to no good. The tragic part of this is the breach in the webway was caused by Magnus attempting to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery. And even worse Magnus was who the Emperor was going to sit in the throne to keep the webway stable. The webway in the vaults is artificial that the Emperor built, its got nothing like the shielding the the eldar/old ones webway has. It needs a huge psyker to shore it up mentally so while the Emperor fought Horus, Malcador took his place in throne and was soon withered. It explains why the Emperor surviving is literally humanities only hope. Other than the fact he boosts and focuses the astronomican he is keeping a daemonic gateway into the palace shut. It also seems to me to explain why the Emperor is just a husk of a man. You'd think that a sophisticated life support chair could diminish or even halt his physical decay, but not if he's constantly using all hin mental energy for 10000 yrs. Yeah, humans was created by the old ones, so were orks who were called the Krork at the time.

So were the Eldar. Created I mean - they talk about it all the time. I've been playing since 2nd Edition and the Golden Throne was always something that was built AFTER the Emperor had 'died' to sustain him and the Astronomicon was seperate while connected to him. The Emperor's light.

So on the list of Old One Created races we have:
Orks [Krorks]
Eldar
Humans? Maybe, [Tho I don't think so] they might have fiddeled with monkeys to make them human but then I think they just jumped off from there. [The monolith from 2001: A space oddesy] True - there were 60K years between the Old one's fall and humanity appearence but hey - it's a GW product. Nothing has to make sense

Perhaps the Old Ones all died before they could fully perfect humanity? Hence our general biological inferiority compared to the other races (except Tau).

The way Eldar use Mon-keigh is similar to how the Hellenics used the term Barbarian. Originally meant for one specific group, but regularly used to mean any non-Greek.

Whether the Eldar use Mon-keigh for purposes of self-determination is unknown.

Posted By WarsmithDave on 02/09/2007 9:58 AM
And even worse Magnus was who the Emperor was going to sit in the throne to keep the webway stable.

I dunno.  I'd rather be a big blue flying monkey than a car battery.

Posted By Celtic Strike on 02/10/2007 2:15 AM
Humans? Maybe, [Tho I don't think so] they might have fiddeled with monkeys to make them human but then I think they just jumped off from there. [The monolith from 2001: A space oddesy] True - there were 60K years between the Old one's fall and humanity appearence but hey - it's a GW product. Nothing has to make sense

Not all the Old Ones died during the fall.  Xenology strongly hints that the eldars' gods were Old Ones.  If this is the case then at least one Old One still survives in the 41st millenium (the Laughing God).  Xenology also states that the one of the gods of the hrud left them "nearly half a million years ago, with promises of a 'great work'."  Was this "great work" mankind?