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Dreads are considered to be costefficient by most players including veterans. Strange enough I havent seen them win games yet. They are a minor help at times, but whenever I consider what else could have been bought for the points, the Dreads never really make an impact.

Well this is just personal experience. Lets look at the facts:

Dreads are jacks of all trades. They can do a little of anything and are able to bind units that lack anti tank weapons. Is this really good enough, given all the toys that 4th Ed. provides?

A commonly used setup is Venerable Dread + AC + Flamer + Pod. Now this thing costs 165 points.

It affects the game for about 3,3 turns per game and kills 1-2 Marines per round.

Not so impressive, is it?

Now factor in that the opponents 165 points do something as well. Two tactical units with heavy weapon in cover for example... Or two Tornados... Or a unit with Meltagun(s) and a hidden Powerfist...

Even less impressive, is it? Dreads can safely be ignored, for their low offensive potential and also can be killed or rendered useless fairly easy by most things you get for the same points.  Somehow this strongly remembers me of "Landraider Syndrome".

So Dreads are bad, arent they?

Not really.

Your example dread setup drops from the sky....flamer kills ALOT of 4+ save models....assualt cannon finnishes the rest. Paid for itself and the pod in 1 round of shooting.

Course you could keep things cheap, 105pts for the normal AC dread, its the cheapest AC you will find. a round of AC + SB fire followed by a charge should be killing about 1.5 marines with shooting, once you get into CC you will be killing another 2.7 marines over 2 CC phases with the last marine either running due to outnumber or taking no retreat wounds and dieing.

So basically my math shows that a 105pts dread will be killing a 100pts (las/plas) tactical squad per turn once you get into CC.

They have plenty of killing power you just need to use them right.
Depending on the army though it might be better to just take a predator annihialator, pretty much the same cost but much better armour at the expense of the CC ability.

Dreads aren't bad, it depends on the opponent and their proper use though.

80% of the armys I face at tourneys have 3+ saves (60+% Marines plus a few Necrons Whitch Hunters etc.) So performance against MEqs is whats important.

Your math seems to suggest one killed 6 men unit per game (not per turn). Almost anything for 165 points can do this and more.

A Dreadnought, as a unit, is the best combination of cheap and durable to field an assault cannon. A Tornado is cheaper, but dies to bolter fire. Terminators can field 2 and has more staying-power, but cost twice as much. A Land Raider Crusader has the same kind of issue.

Now, if you have the points to spend, you're probably better off taking one of these other units. On the cheap, however, it's the best bet.

Also, A Dread is a nice combination of move-and-fire heavy weapons and ability to hide. A Predator has better armor and more guns, but has a harder time hiding from return fire. Add to that the ability to move through cover/difficult terrain without immobilizing itself, and you have a versatile and useful unit.

Dreadnoughts are excellent units, provided you keep them out the way against more serious anti-tank weapons. while the lascannon and missile launcher are not as efficient (or as good at what they do, IMO) as a stripped down AC+SB dread, it still has payed for itself in almost every game I've played it in.

CK

Dreadnoughts certainly have their place.  The biggest problem I see with the original contention is placing it in a drop pod, adding 30 points, and taking it out of the game for 2-4 turns (or more, if you're really, really unlucky), and these are likely to be its most effective turns.

Compare dreads with the alternatives:

Predators/other tanks - similar guns, though the tank generally can outgun the dread.  Dread is a little more shooty on the move, but is slower.  The dread has worse front armour, but better side armour, and can't be immobilised by terrain.  Most importantly, the dreadnough provides close combat support to a firebase, and the tank just can't

Speeders/bikes - dreadnought is a lot more survivable, and a lot more expensive.  The speed is a big differentiator here

Troops - dread is about the same gun wise as a squad of tacticals.  The dreadnought can be taken out with one shot (which a squad of marines can't), but is immune to heavy bolters and below (still one of the bigger problems for a squad of tacticals).  However, if the local metagame tends toward tank-killing being a priority, the squad will tend to last a lot longer than a dreadnought

Personally, I'm a big fan of a dreadnought to support my firebase from anyone getting too close in an assault, particularly uber-characters, that tend to have problems killing a dread in combat, particularly if you can just tie them up for  a while with a nice, cheap 110 point standard dread with extra armour

Posted By spikydavid on 04/18/2006 6:49 AM
Dreadnoughts certainly have their place.  The biggest problem I see with the original contention is placing it in a drop pod, adding 30 points, and taking it out of the game for 2-4 turns (or more, if you're really, really unlucky), and these are likely to be its most effective turns.

While true, you must counter this with the fact that a Drop podding Dread will always get a chance to shoot before it gets shot at. You never have to worry about your opponent popping it on the first turn before it can do anything.

That and the fact that you have the possibility of dropping behind intervening terrain that would normally block LOS to the rest of your force.

Plus, and this is not always a good thing, you will be more likely to get the Dread into assault. A walking dread is much easier to avoid when it comes to assault.

I think, perhaps, some of the love of Dreads comes from 2nd edition (where they were pretty spectacular) and 3rd edition pre-hidden Power Fist (where they were excellent charge deterrants).  Now, they've lost a lot of their power due to them no longer having the uber-special weapon rules (2nd ed) or being able to pick out that PF before grinding through the rest of the squad.

I do think they still have a place in 4th edition, though, in a target saturation role.  Add two of them in a list with Preds, Terminators, and Razorbacks to give your opponent fits when it comes to picking what hard target to shoot at first.  They'll buff the list with some close combat punch, and might pull fire away from more valuable targets.

By and large, they have lost a lot of the luster that used to make them such great additions to any list.

Kev

Dreads and terminators are my bread and butter.

Ezz

@Lord_Sutekh and SpikyDavid,
Why do you believe that a dreadnaught does not take a dangerous terrain test? BGB pg 61 seems to imply that walkers do indeed take dangerous terrain tests.

Darrian

Why do you believe that a dreadnaught does not take a dangerous terrain test? BGB pg 61 seems to imply that walkers do indeed take dangerous terrain tests.

An excellent question. I'm rather curious myself.

According to the BGB, vehicles (except for Dreads and skimmers) treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

Dreads move as infantry and treat difficult terrain as difficult terrain. However, if entering a piece of terrain that is considered dangerous terrain for infantry (Fast moving river, etc) then it can be immobilized by the dangerous terrain test.

Damn Skyth, I think you are dead on right. I love Dakka, regardless of how tedious the argueing can be, I often learn something. This is one of those times.
Thanks.

Darrian

in my experience-venerable dreads with tank hunter ;ass/missle combo for firse support-very good

mortis dreads-very cool

single dreads in an army-very dead

What about Chaos dreads?

With the ability to increase them to armour 13 and/or make them immune to being shaken and stunned, are they better value than their marine counterparts? You also get an extra attack, but then also have to deal with fire fenzy/blood rage...

@Hedgehog. Chaos dreads suck. I hate them, then again, maybe it's my *donkey*cannon envy speaking. It is such a shame that the Imperium had to wait until AFTER the Heresy to rediscover Assault cannon tech.

Darrian
(Assault Cannons are better than you)

Chaos Dreads are hamstringed by bloodraging when you want them to shoot something, and fire-frenzying when all they can see is your own guys. Add in that they take the place of a Predator or Defiler, and they end up on the shelf, most times.