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So? I really like gun drones now that they aren't totally mindless and having an extra 2 is nice to have, do you think that SMS is really worth 40pts (2 drones = 20pts + 20pts for sms)

On the pathfinder devil-fish yes, on firewarrior devilfish no.

The pathfinders are going to stay at range anyway, and most likly their devil fish is going to hang back to give them support. Here the extra range of the SMS and especially the no LOS will come in handy. Firewarrior devil-fish are usually in a forward position and you want all the shots you can get at what ever target your going at. Here the two gun drones will help more than the sms system.

But Jayden, you're getting more shots with the SMS than you are with the drones.

Also, where I put my devilfish largely depends on whether or not they're still carrying their cargo. I'm not so sure I'd rush a FW fish forward unless I was going to hot drop them that turn. I'm usually still trying to play hide and seek at that point.

The biggest disadvantage so far has been the lack of being able to do Stupid Drone Tricks with free gun drones. Still, the consistent 24" range SMS has been a killer in the few games I've played since the codex came out.

Ezz

devilfish with drones has more shots than SMS system. Three for the burst cannon and one from each of the two drones. The SMS on the pathfinders devil fish is better because it will often be out of range or behind terrain at the beginning, the longer range of the SMS and not LOS is better in this case because you wont loose a chance to shoot something.

If your going to stick firewarriors in a devilfish they almost always will be a forward unit. You cant use the 30" range of the pulse rifles on the turn you get out, so your going to probably get out close to the enemy so you can shoot. Lost shooting turns is very bad when you have an army that doesn't really use the assault phase to get the job done. Here you will want the extra shot and possibly pinning test to try and maximise the damage you will enflict on the up close target.

Hope some of this clears up where I'm coming from.

I see what you're saying about the firewarriors.

But the Devilfish with SMS gets 7 shots over the Devilfish with Drone's 5 shots.

The SMS does not replace or preclude you from using the burst cannon if you have LOS and range with it.

Ezz

Well the way I look at it, is VP denial. If I have the SMS system, why give my opponent an 100+ point target to shoot at. The SMS leaves me to hide the D-fish and still shoot. If its hiding its not using the burst cannon.

Its a matter of play style and ultimatly what you are trying to get the devilfish to do.

on this topic whats in the fish is irrelevent. rather your drooping stuff off, using it as a forward or support unit etc.... none of these things alter the firpower of the fish.

 

things to keep in mind

.a fish is a vehicle and can always do whatever it likes after it drops a squad

.drones count as passengers hence a fish with drones literally only has 1 gun to get a weapons destroyed result on. get 2 of those and you have lost a 100+ point unit.

.with proper upgrades fish can fire at 2 targets, get 7 shots total with better range and no LOS restrictions for 4 of them and hit on 3s....much better than 2 possible pinning shots that have re-rolls but need 5s to hit.

 

from personal experience with my tank tau SMS are a weapon that should be on every one of your vehicles that can take it. so yes a SMS is definately worth the 20 points

If you do take SMS 5pts for a targeting array is essential, and makes the choice of weapon worthwhile indeed.

However mughi3 drones only count as passengers when the Devilfish is destroyed, they are also weapon systems. So a drone equipped 'fish can take three weapons hits. Drones also cause pinning tests and keep the vehicle cheap.

All in all both loadouts are worth taking.

Is this 'drones are weapons' rule explicitly stated in the new codex? It's the first I've heard of it.

Its there:

Devilfish entry p36

"Weapons: Burst cannon and a pair of Gun Drones."

Hammerhead and Skyray entry p41

"The secondary weapon system is either...., apair of Gun Drones at +20pts for the pair."

You are confused because of the wording on p30 last paragraph on Gun Drones

"Gun Drones may fire as part of the vehicle....and are treated as passengers if the vehicle is damaged."

They are weapon systems, it clearly states they are, but if the vehicle is damaged and passengers have to disembark or take hits Drones take hits too. It is an additional rule, not a replacement rule. Essentuially it means that if you get a vehicle destroyed result that allows passengers to survive the drones can continue alone if they pass their save.

If anyone persists in a 'Drones are passengers' interpretation look again at page 36 bottom line:

"There are no fire points....This means that passengers may not fire while aboard the vehicle." If you interpret the RAW this way Gun Drones are passengers and cannot shoot.

Yep, I agree with you.

Shows how often I bother a using a Devilfish now...

Might you try one with a Pathfinder team?

Probably - but i haven't actually done more than fick over Tau Empire yet, let alone buy it! I mostly seem to be playing a mixture of historicals, Epic and 40K Tyranids at the moment.

Personally the codex has breathed some new life into the game for me. Markerlight changes alone were enough to get me to look at it again. Slow and purposeful broadsides, Kroot Ox changes (what can I say? I got three of them as part of an ebay auction... ) and the special issue gear, as well as the SMS fish especially... all make the army a lot more fun to play.

Whether or not any of this stuff has true competitive use will be born out over time, I think.

Ezz

@Jayden

I played a game last night using your advice and I think you are bang on, the SMS is a great weapon but saving 40pts on two fish allowed me to spend the points elsewhere that they were more sorely needed. Of course the pathfinder fish was the only vehicle to get popped (one of my few models that died actually) but while it lasted it did really well.

Interesting on the rules for the drones. I hadn't noticed that myself till you mentioned it. Thanks.

@happypants

Glad it worked out for you. If you only lost a few models, sounds like you gave your opponent a good lesson of what happens when you go against the greater good.

Posted By ezzeran on 04/26/2006 12:59 PM
Personally the codex has breathed some new life into the game for me. Markerlight changes alone were enough to get me to look at it again. Slow and purposeful broadsides, Kroot Ox changes (what can I say? I got three of them as part of an ebay auction... ) and the special issue gear, as well as the SMS fish especially... all make the army a lot more fun to play.

Whether or not any of this stuff has true competitive use will be born out over time, I think.

Ezz

 

 

 

really depends on who your facing. i run a fish heavy army, iron warriors had so many mobile heavy weapons i got raped, on the other hand i took on a korn berserker army and only lost 1 fish and the pafinder team in it for the entire game. (he lost his entire army).

Yeah, but.... That's Iron Warriors. :p

Ezz

I say yes to sms on a fire warrior devilfish because the only reason you'd be taking devilfish with fire warriors is to increase the points you spend in troops, and sms is better than 2 more fire warriors.

5 shots at bs3:2.5 shots/turn
7 shots at bs3:3.5 shots/ turn
5 shots at bs4: 3.,3 shots/ turn
7 shots at bs4: 4,6 shots/ turn

for 25 points you get 2 more shots by turn that will hit, . ignore nigth figth have a better range than the burst cannon. I use it on all my devilfish. This is too useful to finish to kill a unit that hide behiind a rock.

I actually think that the two extra firewarriors you get by not taking the SMS is worth it. For the same points, your still getting 7 shots, not to mention the ability to hit 3 different targets. (devilfish, drones, firewarriors). But this is going in a different direction than just looking at SMS vs not SMS devilfish.

the problem with that thinking is balistic skill

target lock and targeting array allow those 7 shots to be split between 2 targets if need be (3 for the burst and 4 for the missles) needing 3's to hit. firewarriors need 4's and drones need 5's. it also exposes the warriors to ap 4 weapons fire and the possibility of being assaulted.

 

so are you really gaining anything?

 

I guess it depends on just how many points are you going to stick onto a non scoring unit. Its starting to add up pretty quick. Your at about +40 points per devilfish. An AV12 vehicle that it doesn't matter if you can only get glancing hits or not, its not shooting next round anyway. Also funny enough, most AP4 or better guns are of sufficant strength to get that glancing hit.

BTW, drones are BS 2, but its TL bs 2 and that actually works out better than BS 3 in the long term.

Its just my opinion at the moment that your spending too many points on a weapon that is not really necessary. One or two is probably ok, but you still need warm bodies to bring you victory.

ah but see my warm bodies are inside the non-scoring trransport. as long as they are inside it can hold table quarters and such. and if your just playing for victory points it still counts.

seriously it would be a stretch to take my fish as a good example of a normal tau army.

my devilfish and my hammerheads are the core of my themed army. i have troops inside them to make them scoring and because i can't have one without the other. it's not the kind of tau army you are likely to see with each transport weighing in at a hefty 150 points. but i do like the performace of the SMS over gun drones, and i think they are well worth the 20 points.

drones are BS 5

Actually, they're BS 2; they HIT on 5+...

Thanks, fixed my post. It was wronge in more ways than one. Bleah... Sorry guys.

I think the main consideration is how you're playing Tau.

If you're doing a lot of gun line stuff, and you've got a lot of Fire Warriors, Kroot, Broadsides, other units that are standing and shooting, then you don't want to spend the points on SMS. You've got enough targets that hiding isn't critical. On the other hand, if you're playing a list that hides a lot (move-shoot-move, stealth, using range), then the Devilfish become more of a target, and you need an SMS to keep them shooting but out of sight.

I think SMS could be useful on a Pathfinder fish, that way you can park it behind whatever piece of terrain they're hiding in and shoot things up on the other side.