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Pretty much what the title says, how do the chapters get made? Is the successor chapter designated a homeworld, get a supply run of geneseed and power armor, etc and are told to have fun fighting for the Emprah? When do they decide that a new successor chapter/founding is necessary?

The High Lords of Terra generally decide on the creation of new chapters. Usually, these chapters have a specific mission or purpose in mind such as "we need this chapter to guard this section" or "we need to replace losses/reinforce for this incoming threat".

And since all Chapters are founded from older ones, they are given a supply of weapons, armor, vehicles, maybe a few relics and a handful of veterans to help lead and organize the new chapter from its parent.

I think the Dark Angels Grand Master forced a founding once actually.

Chapters can also be formed as a result of major events, such as the Horus Heresy, that divide a chapter into different groups that share similar cultures and goals.

Like the Black Templars, for instance, decided they needed to redeem themselves by traveling the galaxy forever waging eternal war. No one else felt this way in the Imperial Fists, so they broke off.

They get one batch of 1000 identical gene seed. You think of homeworlds as being normal for space marines because so many primarchs had home worlds and they just transplanted their legions there, but obviously from the large number of chapters that don't have home worlds, they are not necessary.

It's no good to say have fun fighting for the Emprah, because most of the marines in the chapter will be inexperienced and in reserve companies. It would be more like when the Emperor's Children started out and had to always partner with a stronger legion. They can voluntarily find other chapters to support, and get to watch fully functioning companies fight.

 curran12 wrote:
, maybe a few relics and a handful of veterans to help lead and organize the new chapter from its parent.

That is not really true. Did you read that in a novel, a rulebook? It's a fan theory. You can actually substantiate that there are some kind of "parent" chapters /some of the time/ the time in the Badab War, but that book is from 2008, and you can find that fan theory dating from 2001, or earlier. Then the same book also describes chapters made from whole cloth, instead of having parents, so it still isn't a good enough explanation of where chapters come from.

Usually its as follows,

1) The High Lords of Terra decree a new chapter is to be founded. A bloodline is chosen from existing chapters.

2) The particular chapter chosen's geneseed is taken and a new batch is grown till a large enough stockpile is created.

3) A small number of veterans from the parent chapter are chosen to be the founding members. Usually a captain, who becomes the new chapter master, an Apothecary, and some other marines of notable skill. A chaplain and a librarian are also logical choices as they both provide vital services. Can't exactly get new librarians without an existing one to teach them, and chaplains are equally important.

4) The chapter is given some equipment, both from its parent chapter and the High Lords. A battle barge and maybe some other ships. As well as armor and weapons.

5) The chapter spends the next several decades training new recruits and generally focusing on getting its numbers up. Only risking engagements they know they can win. They'll also spend some time building relationships with the locals.


Most chapters have homeworlds, but they aren't strictly necessary. They will need several worlds to recruit from though, these make logical homeworlds. Its of course not necessarily as complicated as it sounds. A homeworld could be as simple as a feral world which happens to have one lonely space station in orbit which functions as the chapter's base of operations.

Did you read that in a codex? Was it black library, Imperial Armor? Do you have the secret 300th issue of Citadel Journal that says "Usually a captain, who becomes the new chapter master, an Apothecary, and some other marines of notable skill."?

That's not a sentence.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Founding

pelicaniforce wrote:Did you read that in a codex? Was it black library, Imperial Armor? Do you have the secret 300th issue of Citadel Journal that says "Usually a captain, who becomes the new chapter master, an Apothecary, and some other marines of notable skill."?

That's not a sentence.

Unless you have a better idea as to how it happens or a source that says exactly what happens, the best we have to officially go on is; The High Lords order one made, thus appears magically with everything it needs. The fan theories are the best we have to go on, and even then it all likely varies wildly.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Did you read that in a codex? Was it black library, Imperial Armor? Do you have the secret 300th issue of Citadel Journal that says "Usually a captain, who becomes the new chapter master, an Apothecary, and some other marines of notable skill."?

That's not a sentence.

Does anybody actually like you?

I feel like you can be less of a dickbag and contest that this is a fan theory.

RULE #1 here everyone - ASAP.

FIRST and ONLY warning.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Usually its as follows,

1) The High Lords of Terra decree a new chapter is to be founded. A bloodline is chosen from existing chapters.

2) The particular chapter chosen's geneseed is taken and a new batch is grown till a large enough stockpile is created.

3) A small number of veterans from the parent chapter are chosen to be the founding members. Usually a captain, who becomes the new chapter master, an Apothecary, and some other marines of notable skill. A chaplain and a librarian are also logical choices as they both provide vital services. Can't exactly get new librarians without an existing one to teach them, and chaplains are equally important.

4) The chapter is given some equipment, both from its parent chapter and the High Lords. A battle barge and maybe some other ships. As well as armor and weapons.

5) The chapter spends the next several decades training new recruits and generally focusing on getting its numbers up. Only risking engagements they know they can win. They'll also spend some time building relationships with the locals.


Most chapters have homeworlds, but they aren't strictly necessary. They will need several worlds to recruit from though, these make logical homeworlds. Its of course not necessarily as complicated as it sounds. A homeworld could be as simple as a feral world which happens to have one lonely space station in orbit which functions as the chapter's base of operations.

I'm pretty sure I read this somewhere too, though I can't remember where right now. Possibly the fluff that comes with the brb? Either way, it seems to make a lot of sense. Especially the transfer of personnel. For a start any fighting force is going to need a certain level of practical experience from the outset.

I'm pretty sure I read this somewhere too, though I can't remember where right now. Possibly the fluff that comes with the BRB

The problem is it isn't in the BRB. The place you read it has to be on a forum. It seemed like it makes sense and the person who posted it acted like it were true, so here you are. It's like all the spiders that crawl into your mouth while you sleep. it doesn't exist, but it sounds plausible.

Unless you have a better idea as to how it happens or a source that says exactly what happens, the best we have to officially go on is; The High Lords order one made, thus appears magically with everything it needs. The fan theories are the best we have to go on, and even then it all likely varies wildly

Getting officers from another chapter still would mean they appear magically with 1000 suits of armor, a fleet, millions of serfs and servitors, and all the machine oil they need, unless the senior chapter really have that much extra materiel. I think they get those things from the same places they'll get them for the rest of their existences.

My theory is this: the chapter get 1000 sets of gene seed from the tech priests, and all of the officers come from there.

I think that getting donated officers, on the assumption they are the competent ones, doesn't supply enough officers, and it would definitely be better to have more officers than a chapter could donate. The Librarian is an example. The post says maybe one, or we could also say two or three. That librarian has to set up all the librarius facilities including armory, training areas, communications, and archives, he has to procure all the special psychic equipment, and he has to train the actual librarians. If he trains the actual librarians, there will be problems covering all the areas enough because he can't be expert in everything, trouble paying enough attention to all the students, and lots of trouble if he happens to die and there are half-trained librarians left. I think it is better for the new chapter to be part of a marine crusade, so they can see multiple other chapters' facilities and protocols.

I think that new chapters should be part of marine crusades because that way the brand new officers can fight without having to risk important decisions. It seems like the fan theory is mostly to solve for the idea that new marines would be bad officers, but that is not really true. Marines should become officers very quickly or not at all. Serving in a tactical squad for a long time only makes a marine good at being in a tactical squad. Being an officer is a different job, and to ever become good enough at it to be a captain or chapter master a marine would have to start right away. By serving as support for captains from other chapters, who themselves are commanded by a senior chapter master like Dante, a brand new chapter's officers will have a better education than serving under only a dozen donated officers and otherwise let loose to make big decisions.

New chapters might also learn by serving in crusade forces because actually a transfer of personnel is not the way it usually happens in history. A younger or smaller military will have joint training exercises with a world power, and will send some individual officers to foreign military academies, but it is not usual for a country to transfer its own mid level officers to command another country's military.

I think that new chapters train as part of crusade forces instead of having donated officers because it contravenes the second founding. The purpose of the second founding and the codex reforms mean that donated officers are illegal. It is clearly acceptable for a single individual to command many thousands of marines in a war, because so many chapters were commanded by Logan Grimnar at the thirteenth black crusade and by Commander Dante at Armageddon II. What the second founding made impossible was that if Dante should become corrupt, he has no way to fire Seth from commanding the Flesh Tearers and then put a corrupt Flesh Tearer or corrupt Blood Angel in charge of the Flesh Tearers.

A chapter master could still be corrupted by working with other chapters, but it less of a risk than letting Kranon or Huron choose any member of his honor guard to be in charge of a successor.

I think a lot of the sources are pretty clear that every single chapter has its own gene seed. The members of a chapter all have to come biologically from that chapter, and it's not enough to come from a related chapter that has the same Primarch.

I keep waiting for the Dark Hunters novels to get moving again as I believe they were touching on this information in the portion of the novel they put up as a preview. It sounded almost as if some of the starting memebers of the Chapter did actually come from the White Scars, and their chapter master was given a relic from the Chapter Master of the White Scars when they left to form the new chapter.

As far as equipment, I do believe I read somewhere as well that most of their equipment is manufactured and prepared by the Adeptus Mechanus in preperation for foundings, and most foundings are of multipule Chapters, very rarely are they just one chapter being founded. I wish I could remember where I've read all this, but I've read so much stuff over the past 20 years of playing this game a lot of it has just sort of blurred together.

Noc

Nocturus wrote:
I keep waiting for the Dark Hunters novels to get moving again as I believe they were touching on this information in the portion of the novel they put up as a preview. It sounded almost as if some of the starting memebers of the Chapter did actually come from the White Scars, and their chapter master was given a relic from the Chapter Master of the White Scars when they left to form the new chapter.

As far as equipment, I do believe I read somewhere as well that most of their equipment is manufactured and prepared by the Adeptus Mechanus in preperation for foundings, and most foundings are of multipule Chapters, very rarely are they just one chapter being founded. I wish I could remember where I've read all this, but I've read so much stuff over the past 20 years of playing this game a lot of it has just sort of blurred together.

Noc

According to Lexicanum the actual process of creating a new chapter is performed by the AdMech. Which I take it as saying the growing of gene-seeds, implanting the neophytes, enforce the basic training regimes (note: I imagine they literally just give the neophytes a copy of selected sections in the Codex Astartes to read while doing all the hypno-doctrination, tread-mil running and weight-lifting, but who knows) and producing the Power Armours, weapons, ammunitions and arranging a number of warships for each of the newly founded chapters. But the source is from Warhammer 40,000 Compendium so I wouldn't know or even if the information has not been retcon'd. It's a shame really, you'd think this information is going to be in the SM codex.

Yeah, I've read the Lexicanum article as well. Being a fluff bunny this is one of the things that really intrests me about the universe.

That and just how much the Admech can actually still produce. While everyone says nothing "new" is being made, it is obvious from the models that they are producing new versions of Terminator and power armour as well as updated weaponry.

Speaking of geneseed, what exactly is it?

I get that its some sort of genetic code for super-soldiers but I remember reading somewhere that they retrieve it from fallen sm's when and if possible. This makes it seem to be something that can be injected into and pulled out of a body.

The Progenoid Glands are what they collect, which are essentially a useless organ inside the space marine that "collects" geneseed. My guess, and I repeat this is pure guess, is that Progenoid Glands collect some form of stem cells if you want to get scientific. These stem cells can then be cultured and grown into the different organs required to create a space marine.

I seem to remember at one point in time one of the books even stated that one of the two progenoid glands could be collected before the death of the space marine.

Noc

Ok, that makes a lot more sense now.

The progenoids collect gene seed from the implanted organs as they grow.They mature quickly - technically, they are ready to harvest as soon as the Marine has finished bonding to his Black Carapace.

Experience has shown that the longer a progenoid is in the Marine, however, the higher quality the geneseed is - using first-harvest progenoids is probably what causes the majority of organ loss in chapters. This could be because the genetic data for cloning the organ is lost, or it could be because the progenoid fails to 'learn' the correct retrovirii for its second job.

The geneseed's job is two fold.

Firstly, it provides the DNA that allows new organs - multi-lung, etc - to be cloned. The stem cell theory is logical here, but the fluff predates stem cell research so doesn't include the term!

The second job of the Progenoid, and the reason it is the first organ to be implanted, is to prepare the body for the other organs. The progeoid produces retrovirii that alter the Marine's genetic structure subtly, ensuring that the body does not reject the organ tissue or the hormone supplements. Faulty or otherwise finicky progenoids are the reason that so many marines die during implantation.

Essentially there's alot of ambiguity in the fluff leaving it open for people to make their own backstory when creating marine chapters.

And that's exactly how it should be.

While I like the idea of some ambiguity also, I would also like a template for a "standard" founding of a chapter, so as to get an idea of where to start from.

I think more information on this would be cool, for the same reasons as Nocturus said. I just wish I had more money to put into this, but I suppose that's not a problem I bear alone.

 lcmiracle wrote:
the neophytes, enforce the basic training regimes (note: I imagine they literally just give the neophytes a copy of selected sections in the Codex Astartes to read while doing all the hypno-doctrination, tread-mil running and weight-lifting, but who knows) and producing the Power Armours, weapons, ammunitions and arranging a number of warships for each of the newly founded chapters. But the source is from Warhammer 40,000 Compendium so I wouldn't know or even if the information has not been retcon'd. It's a shame really, you'd think this information is going to be in the SM codex.

I don't think it would be easy to put in the codex. They make new lore when they have a new kit, but as for things like this, there isn't anyone who is really gong to do it. a long time ago the studio had lots of people who had originated 40k and felt like it was a way to get ideas out of their heads and into the world, but there isn't as much freedom to do that. The current employees are mostly constrained by having to promote new kits, and if you bought the company and tried to hire back the people who used to work there, it seems like most of them would feel like they'd been there and done that, and wouldn't feel like it was something that they needed to do anymore.

I think unwritten things like creation of a marine chapter are effectively like novels or music that the authors don't finish before thy die. You're nvere going to know.

pelicaniforce wrote:


I don't think it would be easy to put in the codex. They make new lore when they have a new kit, but as for things like this, there isn't anyone who is really gong to do it. a long time ago the studio had lots of people who had originated 40k and felt like it was a way to get ideas out of their heads and into the world, but there isn't as much freedom to do that. The current employees are mostly constrained by having to promote new kits, and if you bought the company and tried to hire back the people who used to work there, it seems like most of them would feel like they'd been there and done that, and wouldn't feel like it was something that they needed to do anymore.

I think unwritten things like creation of a marine chapter are effectively like novels or music that the authors don't finish before thy die. You're never going to know.

However, we can conjecture and create fan theories. That is what the overwhelming majority of the fluff is based on, and it is largely encouraged by the GW creative team. Otherwise we would have an explicit and detailed universe, like Star Wars. So i think, as long as the fluff created by a player fall within the given parameters and guidelines of the established cannon that it is OK to go on it. So the aforementioned process of producing 1000 geneseede and donating officers and relics from a parent chapter are plausible. This would be especially true of a chapter assigned to guard a relatively quiet stretch of space. However the Crusade method would be plausible too. I'm sure that different chapters are founded in different ways for different reasons.

Only one of those two is a fan theory. The "crusade method" is completely canon, because it only states that chapters go on crusades together with one officer in charge, which is canon and states that a new founding starts with 1000 sets of identical gene seed, which is canon. That's it, it's two things which are canon.

Also, being a fan theory means something can't be presented as being a the only and true explanation. In this thread the fan story of donations is posted as true. Canon says it is not true. The canon is that every chapter is genetically different from all the others. That means a marine ca no longer just put on new colors and lead a new chapter. The canon is that the chapters are separated to prevent

Geneseed for new chapters are provided by existing chapters, and also many successor chapters tend to follow the trends of their predecessors, from heraldry, colours to doctrine. Some might also serve as "satellite" chapters to their parent chapters. The entire point of lore ambiguity is so that anyone can make anything up and the general lack of specifics in certain details prevent constant continuity problems.

For how when and why this is a typical case of the benefits of ambiguity. First, there can be many different reasons why new chapters are founded. Maybe the official canon gets specific, maybe it even states that there are no other exceptions beyond the stated reasons, but W40K is all about chaotic dystopia, you have chapters being clearly descended from others, then you have some claiming to be descendants of other chapters but either aren't or unconfirmed or even denied. The "nobody knows for sure" is there so for interesting fluff and suspense.

Conjectures therefore can never be broad sweeping as that would contradict the very nature of ambiguity in W40k lore. Maybe some chapters gave just gene seed and nothing more, maybe some seconded personnel to "apprentice" the new chapter, maybe some marines were converted proper. You'd have to be really throwing off some rather basic canon lore (as well as some sense of practicality) to be really wrong about your theory.

To say "usually" while getting specific is therefore problematic to that level: the only really "usual" thing we know is that geneseed comes from donations of existing chapters, the High Lords give the green light and the Mechanicus starts the process. Nothing else is stated in between these steps, and naturally it is rich ground for speculations as long as they have some element of sense.

This obviously means a lot of maybes. Maybe the process of training these fresh recruits take as long or longer than you would with existing chapters since at the start there is literally no foundation for them; existing chapters have existing techmarines and apothecaries to oversee recruits' development- naturally, something has to fill the gap when there is literally no existing personnel to begin with. Maybe the Mechanicus has specialized priests in or controlled by the Genetors, the ones that focus on genetics. As another have said, this may be augmented or substituted by a willing Techmarine or Apothecary from another chapter, most practically from the parent chapter.It is not surprising that strong proud roots in a parent chapter can come from mentorship during the new chapter's weaning years.

Gear is another but probably easier issue, since the most obvious source is new gear manufactured by the Mechanicum, but that doesn't rule out possibilities that some are donated by one or more chapters during the chapter's period of creation. Some might be donated gear from a chapter that needed serious repairs anyways, some might be recovered relics that for one reason or another the discovering chapter might prefer to give it away. Maybe the chapter just starts off small with a handful of materiel; if most of them end up as fresh scouts then all they'd really need in between regular power armour and Land Raiders are carapace suits and bolters.

For officers this requires some deeper thinking. "Donating" from existing chapters is very unlikely given that few chapters would willingly supply them out to green chapters even if they happen to have surplus numbers looking for a role. The crusade part makes the most practical sense since a new chapter effectively piggybacks along with an existing chapter and learns the ropes through actual participation. The eventual leadership of such a chapter would be the cream of the best first recruits and through lengthy partnerships attain the leadership skills, not to mention this allows the new chapter to begin acquiring it's own traditions, collection of relics and works, and their men and gear to have history they can call their own, without just letting loose onto the big bad world on their own and assume they have the same skills of Blood Ravens from the get go. Such a relationship would also allow room for drama in lore, like tensions between the chapters with the parent perceiving the child as a parasite rather than a symbiote, which means potential plot lines for breakaway chapters or a founding chapter learning that the parent were closet Chaos or slowly drifting from the codex.

Whenever the need arises the HLOT will call for a new founding to have new forces to deal with the threat.

Ok, so how serious does it need to be to have to make an entire new chapter as opposed to sending in some other chapter? It seems to me chaos is the main reason, as they is one of the more insidious enemies, the others can be somewhat beaten off (burn ork corpses, etc). Also, would it be better to buff up current chapters to make them even better, since making a new chapter is expensive, so wouldn't it be cheaper to set up a current chapter with all of that gear and let them expand their horizons even further?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:Did you read that in a codex? Was it black library, Imperial Armor? Do you have the secret 300th issue of Citadel Journal that says "Usually a captain, who becomes the new chapter master, an Apothecary, and some other marines of notable skill."?

That's not a sentence.

Unless you have a better idea as to how it happens or a source that says exactly what happens, the best we have to officially go on is; The High Lords order one made, thus appears magically with everything it needs. The fan theories are the best we have to go on, and even then it all likely varies wildly.

The Steel Confessors were created by the AdMech for the Admech but they were not AdMech.

Apparently the AdMech can make space marine chapters, kind of magically with everything they need without any veteran space marines.

Perhaps they do that with traditional foundings as well.

Would kind of make sense why they are stockpiling geneseed of the traitor legions. I suppose so they could create more space marines, again magically, out of their gene seed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
Ok, so how serious does it need to be to have to make an entire new chapter as opposed to sending in some other chapter? It seems to me chaos is the main reason, as they is one of the more insidious enemies, the others can be somewhat beaten off (burn ork corpses, etc). Also, would it be better to buff up current chapters to make them even better, since making a new chapter is expensive, so wouldn't it be cheaper to set up a current chapter with all of that gear and let them expand their horizons even further?

The IoM is at war. They need to resupply existing chapters and create new chapters. As many as they can as often as they can.

The difficulty is that the IoM is poor and cannot do as much of either as it would like. Also to really resupply an existing chapter requires actually getting the existing chapter out of the field.