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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 20:16:42
Subject: Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Dakka Veteran
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As I'm writing my own codices I thought about the chapters of Space Marines which are loyal to the Emperor and why they would turn. As Space Marines are psycho-indoctrinated no natural or human feeling, such as panic or greed - nor bitterness coming from being overlooked or used as a tool, should be the cause of turning away from the Imperial Cult and/or their chapter(at least according to me). Even though I want Chaos or an entity of Chaos to be involved in whatever kind of "wake up call" of a Space Marine, a group of Space Marines or an entire chapter, I don't need all of them to be fully turned to Chaos - some could just have been "shaken free" and maybe some would even decide to stay loyal and re-psycho-indoctrinated (if they were not deemed "lost").
Well, what I want to talk about is what kind of personalities these Space Marines and their chapters have if they did not follow the Imperial cult and I want to start with Black Templars. As mentioned, we could put them in two groups, one group which doesn't follow neither the Imperial Cult nor Chaos and the other group (which maybe is more interesting) which follow Chaos in some way and which use "Chaos equipment".
Would it be conceivable that Black Templars in group two would make pacts with daemons and let themselves be possessed or would their chapter cult and arrogance keep them "clean" from such level of corruption?
I know that the latest background about Black Templars and psychic powers has been changed but I rather like the old lore about them despising psykers - would this change or would the personality of the chapter cult shine through?
What about their well known honour of every Black Templar and this reflected through challenges?
I would be interested in your thoughts about specific special rules for Black Templars which have turned renegade, as well.
Looking forward to hear your thoughts.
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Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 21:42:25
Subject: Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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Not really an expert but;
Many chapters that turn renegade turns renegade because they get into conflicts with the IoM for some reason. Read the Badab war for the mantis warriors and the lamenter for example. Many alliances have dragged chapters into heresy.
All it takes is some action that may seem honorable on the space marines part; like coming to the aid of another chapter that they have a pledge to, and then later the inquisition or the echlecciasy declares their actions heresy. The Space marines either accepts dissolution or goes renegade.
Many chapters that are renegades in "modern" time also thinks that the IoM is utter corrupt and must be restored.
Problems with geneseed has also caused other chapters to renegate.
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Let the galaxy burn. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/29 23:39:03
Subject: Re:Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Dakka Veteran
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When a Space Marine breaks from their indoctrination they break hard.
When a Space Marine falls from grace, he falls further than any other man. A lifetime of deprivation and selflessness is thrown aside, and the Space Marine indulges his new-found independence to its fullest extent. Freed from tradition, constraint and responsibility, a Chaos Space Marine can exercise his every whim, whether it is for bloodshed, sensual pleasure, ambition, love or hatred. Given full reign, his incredible physical prowess and mental strength can be turned to the most diabolical acts, without any sense of mercy or shame. Like a damn holding back a lake, when a Space Marine's will finally breaks, the result is catastrophic as the whole edifice of his purpose and self-being tumble into disarray.
Having been created to fight, Chaos Space Marines turn to the only thing they know - war. Though their ideals and goals have been cast aside, their superhuman bodies and military skill remain undiminished. Let loose from the confines of orders and prescribed missions, a Chaos Space Marine becomes a psychopathic killer without morals or restraints. He pursues his bloody life to its fullest extent, glorifying in the power of his own body and his ability to inflict death and misery.
Some never grow beyond this point and will remain as bloodthirsty renegades and pirates for the rest of their long lives. Others, having begun to explore the tempting and mysterious galaxy they inhabit, will reach out in all directions to widen their experience. Once subservient to their Chapter and the distant Emperor, a Chaos Space marine may now relish the opportunity to be master rather than the servant, enslaving nations and worlds to his creed. Other may feel free to pursue other avenues, such as the study of illicit texts or a passion for forbidden knowledge. Some Chaos Space Marines seek to inflict pleasure and pain upon themselves, pushing their bodies and their minds to the uttermost limits, searching for a sensual reward that they were never intended to enjoy.
To be a Chaos Space Marine is to feel godlike power over other creatures. Having long since been freed from physical fear, and now released from liability, a Chaos Space Marine does not dread retribution or punishment. For most Chaos Space Marines all memories of the past are swiftly washed away by blood and sensation and any thoughts of the future and little more than half-imagined cravings and dreams.
By dedicating himself to the gods of Chaos a Chaos Space Marine not only finds a patron who approves of his new life, but who will actively reward him for following it. For one whose sole was to live in denial and obedience, the euphoria of this realization can be more powerful than the pride he once felt at being accepted as a Space Marine.
It is the temptation, this dark abyss, which constantly beckons to Space Marines. They cannot claim ignorance of these facts, because the teaching of their Chapter and the Chaplains remind them on a daily basis of their purpose and duty. A Space Marine does not casually slip away from these bonds, no matter what occurs in his life. For a Space marine to turn to Chaos he must consciously decide to walk a different path, to choose obscene freedom is place of righteous bondage. Once made, it is a descision that cannot be recanted - from the moment he renounces the Emperor, a Space Marine is truly damned.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/30 20:33:13
Subject: Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Dakka Veteran
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Very interesting input... Though I don't entirely agree on "Though their ideals and goals have been cast aside..." as you probably could induce from my first post. What about a Black Templar Space Marine - do you have any thoughts as to how different he would/could act on the battlefield and what his goals would be had he risen to Chaos (discounting the usual kill/maim/burn/the Universe belongs to me).
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Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/30 21:44:50
Subject: Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot
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How a Black Templar who turns traitor would act depends very much on why he fell and what god he turned to. Khorne seems like the most obvious choice to me, since the Black Templar are a very bloodthirsty chapter already and hate psykers. They already have many parallels to Khorne worshipers, so it would be easier for them to fall without realizing it.
A likely story would be that the Black Templar in question was so desperate to smite his enemies that he unwittingly called on a power that wasn't the Emperor to help him overcome impossible odds, possibly after accidentally coming into contact with a Chaos artifact. He emerged victorious, but still felt the overwhelming urge to kill. His fellow marines realized something was not right and sensing that he was corrupted, attacked him, but with his newfound power he fought them off and escaped, killing several in the process. Maybe he's convinced at first that the loyalists marines were the real traitors. Gradually, he realizes the truth and is openly serving Khorne. A fallen Black Templar may still be extremely xenophobic, hating all aliens, mutants, and psykers, but now he hates the Imperium too, because he views the loyalists as being too weak to do what must be done to win.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 21:45:38
40k is 111% science.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/30 22:53:43
Subject: Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Dakka Veteran
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Chaospling wrote:Very interesting input... Though I don't entirely agree on "Though their ideals and goals have been cast aside..." as you probably could induce from my first post. What about a Black Templar Space Marine - do you have any thoughts as to how different he would/could act on the battlefield and what his goals would be had he risen to Chaos (discounting the usual kill/maim/burn/the Universe belongs to me).
How would he act? Well, however he wanted. He's has essentially thrown what makes him him out of the door, so now is the perfect time to reinvent himself. Maybe he discovers he's got a wicked sense of humour?
As for goals probably he'll end up killing lots of people because that's what he knows and what he likes.
Maybe he thinks the Black Templars are fools for shunning the power of sorcery and is on a quest to gather forbidden tomes and relics of power so that he can bring the High Marshal to his knees and make the entire Chapter see things his way.
Maybe he will succumb to his own hatred of a deadly foe that has slain many of his cherished brothers, and become a rampaging berserker.
Maybe instead, after a long grueling crusade where his Chaplain dies early, he becomes morose and disillusioned with his purpose and the Imperium at large, and so he vows to destroy it, hoping something better will take its place.
Or maybe after a vision he intends to go on a great pilgrimage to Sicarus, where he believes he has been chosen to be tutored in the true theology by Lorgar himself, but he must accomplish trials - real or imagined - along the way
Lots of maybe basically.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 22:55:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/31 20:00:47
Subject: Re:Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Wing Commander
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I view the likes of the Black Templars and Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers, etc as renegade marines anyway.
Particularly the Templars. Gave Guilliman the finger, gave the Inquisition the finger. They may be liked by some Imperial factions (other Fists successors, Sisters), awed and feared by most others (humans), and merely tolerated by many (authority figures like the Ordo, other Chapters) because they happen to be quite adamant about taking it to all of IoM's enemies. But they'll only do it their way.
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Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/07/31 22:12:10
Subject: Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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The BT are rather liked by the Ecclesiarchy as well, being a Second Founding Chapter that venerates the Emperor as a divine being.
Renegade? Hardly. The BT might be unorthodox, and might have given Guilliman the finger, but they are actually the First Founding Imperial Fists, they simply took on a new name when they broke away from the Legion to enact their Eternal Crusade. This is why they are considered a Second Founding Chapter, though, really, these are the IF that didn't change from their GC-era practices.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/01 13:38:42
Subject: Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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I'd rather agree with Psienesis; I think you can very well imagine some chapter turning renegade, but Black Templars ... They are die-hard Emperor's worshippers and have launched an eternal crusade against His foes.
IMO, the most likely scenario would be BT attacking Inquisition or other Imperial agents considered by them as dishonourables servitors of the Emperor. Maybe you could take some inspiration on the Month Of Shame, a near-civil war who opposed Inquisition and Space Wolves after the 1st War for Armaggedon. It has been discussed recently on this forum !
BT could fight anyone standing in the way of their crusade (you can make up some organizational rivalry with any ordo/IG regiment or whatever and say it degenerate) but worshipping Chaos Gods, really, it is hardly possible !
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/01 13:39:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/08/02 11:18:19
Subject: Personalities and rules of Space Marines turned renegades [Black Templars]
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Dakka Veteran
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Sorry, I started this thread but have been away from the comp for a few days - I appreciate your input on this subject.
@Animus: Yes a lot of maybes and this is okay as even Space Marines from the same Chapter have different mindsets which are revealed if only we dig deep enough.
As I said earlier, I don't think Space Marine would turn away from the Emperor or their Chapter just because of normal feelings and opinions - Space Marines would need to be influenced by unnatural forces if their psycho-indoctrination were to be unmade. Though I still think that when turned, they could still have some of their Chapter-specific beliefs and characteristics and so it's these kinds of renegade Black Templars I'm interested in as it's these I want to invent rules for.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/02 11:19:12
Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. |
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