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Ok, so basically, with the Imperium of Mankind being such a technologically regressive culture with most tech being ancient and the common patterns in use by the 41st Millenium generally being the easiest patterns to mass-produce, I reckon that most current Space Marine equipment was at least beginning to enter use towards the end of the Great Crusade or during the Horus Heresy. To this end, I've used the FW Horus Heresy series and some other sources to work out just what aspects of 40k Space Marine equipment was around in 30k. Mainly this equates to what GW plastics can be used (sometimes with modification) in HH armies without breaking the fluff (being a fluff bunny I would prefer my HH forces to not be 'historically' inaccurate).

OK, so here is the evidence I have accumulated so far. Special attention has been given to the Godwyn/Ultima pattern of bolter as I would find it very useful from a modelling perspective for it to be extant pre-Heresy. Any other GW plastics I have not added that people feel would be appropriate, let me know. Additional evidence (preferably with a source and page number) also will be much appreciated

GW plastics HH background evidence:

Godwyn/Ultima pattern boltgun, bolt pistol and Maxima pattern heavy bolter. Ultima pattern weapons confirmed in use by Salamanders and Raven Guard. Ultima weapons are pre-Heresy, unknown how commonly. No evidence for heavy bolter, Mor Deythan appear to be armed with the pistol.

HH Book 1: Betrayal
Held by Death Guard Marines in page background images. Pgs 124-126, 156-157, 203, 205, 207, 222, 266, 281, 284 (very clear example).

HH Book 2: Massacre
Ultima pattern Combi-flamer used by Firedrake squad Kal'sho, pg 124.
Held by Death Guard Marines in page background image. Pg 15. Likely same Marines as in images in Book 1.

HH Book 3: Extermination
None sighted.

HH Book 4: Conquest
None sighted.

HH Book 5: Tempest
None sighted.

FW webstore: Mor Deythan strike squad is equipped with heavily modified sniper variants of Ultima pattern bolters. Also seem to be equipped with holstered Godwyn bolt pistols.


Mk V Castraferrum Dreadnought. Extant pre-Heresy, unknown how common.

HH Book 2: Word Bearers Mortis Dreadnought image Pg 154; Legion Mortis Dreadnought entry description margin.


Indomitus pattern Terminator armour. Extant and widespread pre-Heresy, especially in Imperial Fists Legion. No Crux Terminatus though to my knowledge.

HH Book 2: Gorgon Terminators entry, description margin, Gorgon Terminator armour description.

HH Book 3: Imperial Fists Legion background information, Legion Organisation.


MkVII 'Aquila' power armour. Developed by surviving loyalist armour researchers evacuated from Mars. Completed and beginning in issue to loyalist Legions during late Heresy, probably for the Siege of Terra.


Phobos pattern Land Raider. Extant and widespread pre-Heresy, even without enclosed, armoured sponsons (FW variant). Crusader and Redeemer variants definitely post-Heresy.

HH Book 1: Legion Land Raider battle squadron; background image in campaign section.


Mars pattern Rhino and variants. Rhino chassis is confirmed, is in less common use by the Legionnes Astartes. Mars pattern Predators likely but not confirmed. Whirlwind Hyperios confirmed, Mars and Helios pattern launchers unknown, Thalia pattern probably in use. Mars pattern Vindicator unsure, evidence for eitherway but I believe they are in use. Predator Annihilator and Razorbacks definitely post-Heresy.

HH Book 1: Mars pattern Rhino in background image, pg 217; Legion Artillery Tank Squadron has option for Hyperios pattern Whirlwind launchers.

HH Book 3: Iron Warriors Mars pattern Rhino, pg 127.

HH Book 4: Death Guard Vindicator. Confusingly has a Deimos pattern hull, but with a Mars pattern front glacis plate, roof, Demolisher cannon and siege shield, pg 186. As the Mars pattern hull is in use separately, this would suggest to me that Mars pattern Vindicators are available.

Imperial Armour volume 2 second edition: Vindicator background section, suggests Vindicators were developed during the Heresy, yet Deimos pattern Vindicators pre-date the Horus Heresy. May mean that Mars pattern Vindicators were developed during the Heresy, or that after 10,000 years the Imperium has no older records of the Vindicator; Whirlwind background section, suggests that most of the patterns in use with Space Marine Chapters in the 41st Millennium were not extant during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. Does not state which patterns this includes, but describes the Thalia pattern as ancient. However, there is no model for Thalia pattern launchers (may be a future FW release).

FW webstore lists Mars pattern Rhino doors in Legion section.


Ultima/Incaladion/other sub-patterns of Stormbolter. Probably post-Heresy (Scouring or early Age of Imperium).

Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 5th Edition: suggests the combi-bolter was in use amongst Loyalists until post-Heresy.


Absinia pattern Assault cannon. Prototypes entering use at the end of the Great Crusade with Imperial Fists. Blood Angels also possibly using the prototype, although may solely be using the Iliastus pattern Assault cannon (possibly also true for the Thousand Sons).

HH Book 3: Imperial Fists Legion organisation, pg 62.


Cyclone missile launcher. In limited use by Iron Warriors and Ultramarines Legions.

HH Book 3: Tyrant Siege Terminator squad equipment, pg 252.

HH Book 5: Fulmentarus Terminator Strike squad equipment, pg 235.


Monocore Ryza/Mars pattern plasma weapons. Sunfury pattern pistol confirmed, Ragefire pattern gun and Comet pattern cannon likely too.

FW webstore: Anakatis Kul Blade Slaves wield Sunfury plasma pistols; Tartaros pattern combi-weapons use Ryza/Mars pattern plasma weapons.


Ultima pattern meltagun, Fury pattern Inferno pistol and Maxima pattern multi-melta. Barrel type is definitely in use, unknown for full melta pattern, but very likely.

FW webstore: Tigrus pattern combi-weapons, the melta component has a barrel matching the Ultima pattern meltagun, rather than the Primus pattern meltagun. True for both the Legion Combi-weapon pack combi-weapons and the combi-bolter based combi-weapons with the Tartaros pattern Terminators (the latter shows more of the weapon showing it to be similar to an Ultima pattern meltagun).


Heretic pattern flamer and heavy flamer, Ignis pattern hand flamer. Unknown, probable.


Mars pattern Grav pistol, gun, cannon. Unknown, probably post-Heresy, due to the graviton Imploder only just being extant at the beginning of the Heresy (the Imploder being the precursor to 40k Grav weaponry).


Soundstrike pattern missile launcher. Possible, used by Marines in Collected Visions.

Collected Visions: wielded by Marines.

Mk VII Mars pattern Lascannon. Unknown, research pending. Probable.


Mars pattern Land Speeder. Discovered post-Heresy. The Great Crusade version therefore currently has no available model (FW will likely produce a model based on the classic GW Land Speeder).

Imperial Armour volume 2 second edition: Land Speeder background information, pg 148.


Phobos-Lucius pattern Drop pod. Confirmed, main Drop pod pattern in use.

HH Book 1: World Eaters Drop pod, pg 205.


MkXIX Lucifer pattern Melta-bomb. Confirmed, in use by multiple Legions at the outbreak of the Heresy.

HH Book 2: Night Lords Assault sergeant equipment, pg 106.

HH Book 3: Imperial Fists Breacher sergeant, pg 69.

HH Book 4: Death Guard Tactical Legionary equipment, pg 155; Iron Hands Legionary equipment, pg 159; Salamanders Pyroclast equipment, pg 162.

Not a book source, but Forge World sells Legion specific Mars pattern Rhino doors under the Horus Heresy brand.

In Book 3 there is an Iron Warriors Mars Pattern Rhino with an excerpt about the Deimos being preferred over it.

Gashrog wrote:Not a book source, but Forge World sells Legion specific Mars pattern Rhino doors under the Horus Heresy brand.

That is a good point.

Dinamarth wrote:In Book 3 there is an Iron Warriors Mars Pattern Rhino with an excerpt about the Deimos being preferred over it.

Brilliant thanks, will flick through and get the page number when I have chance Book 3 is the book I haven't checked yet.

Ok, original post updated to include Mars pattern vehicles. Does anyone know of good sources for ruling out Stormbolters? I am pretty sure they don't exist pre-heresy or during the heresy, but I'm not satisfied with just using the 6thed Chaos codex as a source. Have not been able to track down more information than that, but it would appear they were developed in the Scouring.

Updated to include Mor Deythan Godwyn sniper rifles. I reckon Godwyn pattern bolters are definitely extant pre-Heresy now

Some things which were invented post-heresy. Just for completions sake.

Marine portable Plasma Cannons and Multi-meltas. You will notice these weapons did not exist during the Heresy, it also explains why the CSM codex doesn't have these options.

Mk8 power armor(each successive mark of PA has been more advanced than the previous versions)

 Grey Templar wrote:

Mk8 power armor(each successive mark of PA has been more advanced than the previous versions)

This doesn't always follow, but Mk8 is probably the most advanced set of armor, because Grey Knights use it exclusively.

I suppose there is some equivalent usefulness in the 4-5 marks as they were designed for specific uses rather than to replace the older version.

Several marks of bolters are still in use, and models.

Some where discontinued, others flawed but with the wide range of the forgeworld, someone may be still making a older pattern bolter, melta gun, or pistol for many reasons.

Fluff has plenty of give in it and room to flex.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Marine portable Plasma Cannons and Multi-meltas. You will notice these weapons did not exist during the Heresy, it also explains why the CSM codex doesn't have these options.

Both plasma cannons and multi-meltas are available to Legion Heavy Support Squads in the Horus Heresy. The post-heresy invention of both has gone the way of the Mk2 helmet that doesn't rotate.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I suppose there is some equivalent usefulness in the 4-5 marks as they were designed for specific uses rather than to replace the older version.

MkIII armour was the one designed for a specific purpose, and originally stated to still be used for it 'by many modern chapters'.

MkIV 'Maximus' armour was so named because it was the most advanced suit, and was intended as a general replacement.

MkV - in its original write-up at least - was pretty much pure rubbish adopted only through desperation (I liken it to the final variant of the Panzer IV in WW2, the Ausf J: In the final months of the war the Germans had lost the capacity to mass produced the electric motors used in turret traverse, so were forced to 'upgrade' to a manual crank to turn the turret), it was however also intended as a general replacement for existing suits, albeit a temporary one.

jareddm wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Marine portable Plasma Cannons and Multi-meltas. You will notice these weapons did not exist during the Heresy, it also explains why the CSM codex doesn't have these options.

Both plasma cannons and multi-meltas are available to Legion Heavy Support Squads in the Horus Heresy. The post-heresy invention of both has gone the way of the Mk2 helmet that doesn't rotate.

This is what I thought. There is also evidence for plasma pistols in the pattern common in 40k (Sunfury pattern) being used by 30k forces, so it seems odd that there wouldn't be the plasma cannon variant (Comet pattern) of that type of plasma weaponry. I have never seen the fluff for portable plasma cannons and multi-meltas being post-Heresy before though, it may be referring to specifically the Comet and Ultima pattern weapons commonly used by 40k Devastators being designed post-Heresy now.

It does make a convenient excuse for why Chaos doesn't use them, which FW has now retconned as a reason though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gashrog wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I suppose there is some equivalent usefulness in the 4-5 marks as they were designed for specific uses rather than to replace the older version.

MkIII armour was the one designed for a specific purpose, and originally stated to still be used for it 'by many modern chapters'.

MkIV 'Maximus' armour was so named because it was the most advanced suit, and was intended as a general replacement.

MkV - in its original write-up at least - was pretty much pure rubbish adopted only through desperation (I liken it to the final variant of the Panzer IV in WW2, the Ausf J: In the final months of the war the Germans had lost the capacity to mass produced the electric motors used in turret traverse, so were forced to 'upgrade' to a manual crank to turn the turret), it was however also intended as a general replacement for existing suits, albeit a temporary one.

Yeah, it is worth mentioning that MkVI was originally intended to be the successor to MkIV before the Heresy came along and messed everything up. MkVI isn't strictly better than MkIV though I don't think, I think it has improved sensory equipment fitted into the conical nose although MkIV is often described as being the most advanced suit in background pieces.

MkVIII is the most advanced in terms of protection I think, but not in terms of other functions.

 Haighus wrote:


Yeah, it is worth mentioning that MkVI was originally intended to be the successor to MkIV before the Heresy came along and messed everything up. MkVI isn't strictly better than MkIV though I don't think, I think it has improved sensory equipment fitted into the conical nose although MkIV is often described as being the most advanced suit in background pieces.

MkVIII is the most advanced in terms of protection I think, but not in terms of other functions.

MkVI gets mentioned as being a mark of armor no one except the Raven Guard seemed to have wanted which is why they were field testing it. The MkIV has all the bells and whistles as far as built in features but its dependency on relatively more advance technology made them harder to maintain and replace. The improvement to the MkVI is really a logistical improvement. The MkVI is certainly a retrograde to the MkIV. The MkVI forgoes many of the system redundancies of the MkIV and utilizes less complex though possibly bulkier or heavier versions of sub-components. Just look at the jump packs... probably through a combination of more exotic materials in MkIV armor and much more advance engines in jump packs, MkIV armor can use a jump pack that utilizes only a single engine.

I still love the "little" detail, where the melta-bombs used by MkIV marines are only the size of grenades as opposed to their 40k era fire-extinguisher size.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Haighus wrote:


Yeah, it is worth mentioning that MkVI was originally intended to be the successor to MkIV before the Heresy came along and messed everything up. MkVI isn't strictly better than MkIV though I don't think, I think it has improved sensory equipment fitted into the conical nose although MkIV is often described as being the most advanced suit in background pieces.

MkVIII is the most advanced in terms of protection I think, but not in terms of other functions.

MkVI gets mentioned as being a mark of armor no one except the Raven Guard seemed to have wanted which is why they were field testing it. The MkIV has all the bells and whistles as far as built in features but its dependency on relatively more advance technology made them harder to maintain and replace. The improvement to the MkVI is really a logistical improvement. The MkVI is certainly a retrograde to the MkIV. The MkVI forgoes many of the system redundancies of the MkIV and utilizes less complex though possibly bulkier or heavier versions of sub-components. Just look at the jump packs... probably through a combination of more exotic materials in MkIV armor and much more advance engines in jump packs, MkIV armor can use a jump pack that utilizes only a single engine.

I still love the "little" detail, where the melta-bombs used by MkIV marines are only the size of grenades as opposed to their 40k era fire-extinguisher size.

I think that makes a lot of sense and tallies with MkIV being oft described as having the most advanced systems. I believe the MKVI has been described as having the best sensory equipment though, which makes sense for them being desired by the Raven Guard too.

Where is the information about the melta-bombs from? To my knowledge the same melta-bombs (MkXIX Lucifer pattern) are used by HH forces as in 40k?

There's been a lot of retcons to what existed at the time of the Heresy now that a full game has been developed from it. Land Speeders are the most notable example.

The Thousand Sons - in "A Thousand Sons" had recently received a 'new experimental weapon' which as described is essentially the terminator-portable assault cannon. They still called it the 'Reaper' though, even though noting it wasn't the same as a classic reaper autocannon.

So the assault cannon was in service pre-heresy - it exists as a dreadnought-calibre weapon (although the Kheres assault cannon is a fundamentally more powerful weapon) for every legion, but using an assault cannon as a counts-as reaper in at least the thousand sons is not unreasonable.

Harriticus wrote:There's been a lot of retcons to what existed at the time of the Heresy now that a full game has been developed from it. Land Speeders are the most notable example.

The Land speeder one is only a partial retcon though, and fits nicely with the fluff about Arkhan Land discovering them- if he discovered the Land Raider at the same time, both should have existed at the same time. Well, according to IA2 (see original post) 40k Land speeders did not exist in the Heresy; so the general class of vehicles, presumably including Arkhan's original rediscovered design, existed, but not the type in common use by 40k Astartes.

locarno24 wrote:The Thousand Sons - in "A Thousand Sons" had recently received a 'new experimental weapon' which as described is essentially the terminator-portable assault cannon. They still called it the 'Reaper' though, even though noting it wasn't the same as a classic reaper autocannon.

So the assault cannon was in service pre-heresy - it exists as a dreadnought-calibre weapon (although the Kheres assault cannon is a fundamentally more powerful weapon) for every legion, but using an assault cannon as a counts-as reaper in at least the thousand sons is not unreasonable.

I didn't include Assault cannons and Cyclone missile launchers as they were already explicitly part of the existing Crusade Army list options for certain Legions as experimental gear: Imperial Fists have access to Terminator Assault cannons (which are almost identical to their 40k equivalents except they can over-heat), and the Assault cannon fluff mentions them also being trialled in the Blood Angels Legion at the same time (Blood Angels not having rules to confirm this at the moment); Iron Warriors and Ultramarines have access to Cyclone missile launchers in certain unique squads. In hindsight, I should probably add them.

That is the first I have heard of Assault cannons in use by Thousand Sons though, so it will be interesting to see if they can take them when Prospero hits... eventually...

 Haighus wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

I still love the "little" detail, where the melta-bombs used by MkIV marines are only the size of grenades as opposed to their 40k era fire-extinguisher size.

Where is the information about the melta-bombs from? To my knowledge the same melta-bombs (MkXIX Lucifer pattern) are used by HH forces as in 40k?

I'm talking with regards to the model, so I don't know if there is an actual fluff explanation.

Bottom right hand corner, those are melta bombs. They're the same size as the normal grenades.

Ahhh thanks! That is very interesting! Especially considering that the character profiles of individual Marines in the HH books all seem to use the 40k Melta-bombs based on their size next to the grenades in the same profiles.



This is the only picture I could find at the moment but the type of Melta-bomb featured in that image is the only type in the books if I remember correctly. It tallies up size and design-wise with the plastic 40k ones.

I guess that means there are several types of Melta-bomb in use in the Horus Heresy.

Are you considering Collected Visions (the HH artbook) as a source? If so there are a bunch of examples of things I could cite. For example there are some SW's using the modern missile launcher, some tanks which don't have models yet, as well as what looks like a new terminator variant.

I'd post a bunch of pics but there are 400 pages of the stuff and I wouldn't really know what I was looking for!

Erm, I'm not at the moment, partly because I don't have access to those books, but mainly because so much of what is in them is being subtlely retconned or modified by FW. I consider FW sources to currently be the 'hardest' source for these things.
However, any examples from Collected Visions that don't have a corresponding FW source to confirm either way I am happy to 'pencil' in fluff and modify it if/when FW produces their own material on the matter.

I'm not adding things which are Heresy only, as the point of the thread is to act as a resource for which of the GW Space Marine plastic range is 'historically' accurate for adding to HH ear models. I'm sure FW will eventually get around to releasing said model-less tanks in due course though...

The new Terminator variant may well be the Saturnyne pattern which FW has mentioned several times in HH fluff now, but as yet awaits a model. If it gets a model, I will likely be buying a squad for my IFs as they are Terminator heavy with mixed patterns.

For the purpose of the article, posting a page number for specific examples of equipment that is being used by Marines (such as the page number for a Marine using the Soundstrike missile launcher) would be enough, people can always find the picture themselves

I've added the missile launcher to the above post, thanks for that one.

Also added Lucifer pattern Melta-bombs.

You can add the javelin speeder to the list of stuff that can take cyclone missile launchers.

I noticed in betrayal there was a respirator/helmet that looks suspiciously like the one seen on the MK VII power armour

 Zuul wrote:

I noticed in betrayal there was a respirator/helmet that looks suspiciously like the one seen on the MK VII power armour

The artist got the proportions and lighting a bit wonky on that one but it is actually MkV, to quote the description of the similar marine on the previous page:
"Helmet fitted with late M.30 'Mantilla' pattern respiration unit (later to become standard issue for MkV Pattern armour)."

I think it is the direct predecessor to the MkVII helmet though, and could probably get away with a MkVII helmet on a MkIV/V/VI body with some modification. The Sarum pattern respirator used mainly by the World Eaters is also very similar to the MkVII helmet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gashrog wrote:
The artist got the proportions and lighting a bit wonky on that one but it is actually MkV, to quote the description of the similar marine on the previous page:
"Helmet fitted with late M.30 'Mantilla' pattern respiration unit (later to become standard issue for MkV Pattern armour)."

There are other examples of such helmets through the HH books with the same proportions, so I'm not sure if it is just a mistake.

MkV is the direct predecessor to MkVII

The main difference in the faceplate between Forge World's MkV and the standard (non-'Destroyer') MkVII is that MkVII has completely unprotected pipes/cables that just plug into the side of the helmet (see below). In the MkV the front half of the cable is covered by a bulbous armoured protrusion with rivets sticking out the front (derived from the Indomitus Terminator suit/Star Wars Storm Trooper). The way the guy's done lighting on that pic makes the rivets look a bit like the MkVII pip connectors, but you can still see that the front half of the cable is covered by the armoured protrusion.

Edit: never-mind

 Zuul wrote:
Edit: never-mind

I wouldn't be worried, it becoming a fairly monolithic post! I'm struggling to keep track of it myself.


I'm frustrated by the delay in the next HH book though, I was hoping to sink my teeth into one around now. Gotta wait till next year :(


Well reasoned with the helmet respirator designs- I hadn't noticed those subtle differences with the helmets, but it all makes sense when comparing the images to the models of both MkV and MkVII helmets.

So basically my tech-adept heretical chapter can use a lot of 30k OP-please-nerf things ?

And how good is a Mk IV helmet compared to a Mk VII one ? (I assume Mk VIII armors use Mk VII helmets).

I thought MK VIII had to have the helmet redesigned due to the collar shape and as a result was not backwards comparable with older helmet designs.