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This is for a friend that wants to try drop pods:

Everyone includes stubborn.

Epistolary, Fury, Fear, Terminator armor, 4 terminators, 2 cannons, furious charge, homer, pod, chainfist

5 terminators, 2 cannons, tank hunters, homer, pod, chainfist

5 terminators, 2 cannons, tank hunter, chainfist

2X5 terminators, 2 cannons, chainfist

5 assault terminators, furious charge, pod

So it's just 30 terminators and 10 assault cannons.

Seems like it should work rather well. Thoughts?

Seems good to me, Assault Terminators would be harder to use but not impossible. The command Squad is pretty standard.

Looks solid. 30 Termies at 1850 is about right; can't do much more than that. I'd like to know how the DP Assault Termies work--I dropped ATs from my lists because I could never get them into HTH (though the few times I did--hoo-boy!).

Only thing I'd consider is dropping Tank Hunter off two of those units and getting some more guys, but TH is probably the better value...

Looks mean and nasty. I like... I like alot. I think I need to buy some more Terminators.

Only 3 Pods? Never mind, I see your homers.

I just swapped in a unit of assault terminators in my regular drop army.

It does cost me 2 assault cannons, and I have yet to get them into hth, but I'm sure when I do, I'll be very happy with them.

Hey Ed, what's the Claw to Thunderhammer ratio in your Termie Assault Squad? Or do you use all claws? I have seen a DP unit of termies like this get into combat at a game I was watching at Adepticon...it is nasty. Basically any squad they charge dies.... Capt K

I imagine it is claws, as he has chainfists in various other places and they combine very nicely with furious charge.

That's about 20 attacks on the charge, isn't it? Hitting on 3's wounding on 3's with a reroll and no saves.
Lots of pain there. Do they beat a 12 man squad of stealers? Or do the stealers manage to kill enough with the higher initiative. Just out of curiosity.

Having played Deathwing for a few years now, I'd rather have 2 more assault cannons instead of the assault terminators. Assault terminators have a lot of damage potential, IF they get into combat. Even with drop pods, it's usually easy for your opponent to stay away from them, or counter them somehow.

Assault cannons let you apply pressure more effectively, it's a lot harder to get away from them. And even when their squad is down to only 2 members, they've got almost as much firepower as a 5 man squad.

I'd suggest using another assault cannon squad in place of the assault terminators, and get the extra points by dropping some skills (though Tank Hunters is very useful with assault cannons). Give out some more homers if you can, since the list seems to rely on deepstriking/podding.

A side note, I've found that my all infantry Deathwing performs better with no deepstriking at all. Having all the firepower on the board turn 1 always makes a big difference. It might work out well to only hold the podding squads in reserve, and start everyone else on the board, removing the need for any homers.

If they're fighting 12 man squads of genestealers, something is seriously wrong. What are the assault cannons doing?

Mine are all claws, since I have so many powerfists in other spots.

20 attacks, is 10 hits, 20/3 wounds vs. T4, plus 20/9 on the reroll is ~9 dead T4 models.

Or one really dead IC that was about to clean up on terminators.

The only thing I can think of in this list is that it relies to much on Assault Cannons. I know how deadly an Assault Cannon is but there are days (more often than not) those magic sixes have a hard time showing up. If there is any way to get a Lascannon (Perhaps Venerable Dread with Las Cannon and Tank hunters if you want to waste a lot of points). However it isn't necessary.

Posted By Mahu on 05/11/2006 2:48 PM
The only thing I can think of in this list is that it relies to much on Assault Cannons. I know how deadly an Assault Cannon is but there are days (more often than not) those magic sixes have a hard time showing up. If there is any way to get a Lascannon (Perhaps Venerable Dread with Las Cannon and Tank hunters if you want to waste a lot of points). However it isn't necessary.

No there is no days where that six is stubborn. Or in any case, throwing Lascannons/Meltas/Missiles or whatever would not mean that you are immune to bad luck. Statistically, a LC will always perform worse than an Assault Cannon against anything that isn't composed of Living Metal.

I've played those games when the magic 6s don't appear. Let me tell you, with 10 Assault cannons, that unit you just shot up is still getting shot to pieces and, assuming you can get a side/rear on the vehicle, it's probably going down too. That's the thing about ACs: even without the rending, they're pretty dern powerful guns.

I keep 2 cyclones in my list for diversity's sake, but I still have 10 ACs. They work wonders and are the great equalizer for Deathwing...

Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 05/11/2006 6:34 PM

Posted By Mahu on 05/11/2006 2:48 PM
The only thing I can think of in this list is that it relies to much on Assault Cannons. I know how deadly an Assault Cannon is but there are days (more often than not) those magic sixes have a hard time showing up. If there is any way to get a Lascannon (Perhaps Venerable Dread with Las Cannon and Tank hunters if you want to waste a lot of points). However it isn't necessary.

No there is no days where that six is stubborn. Or in any case, throwing Lascannons/Meltas/Missiles or whatever would not mean that you are immune to bad luck. Statistically, a LC will always perform worse than an Assault Cannon against anything that isn't composed of Living Metal.

Well, have fun playing againt Necrons with this list. Like I said, it isn't neccessary, but would be nice to have one.

The problem that this list is to perfect to really critisize, so it all comes down to personal opionion, I have stated mine, lets leave it at that.

You think Necrons would be a problem?

Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 05/11/2006 6:34 PM

Posted By Mahu on 05/11/2006 2:48 PM
The only thing I can think of in this list is that it relies to much on Assault Cannons. I know how deadly an Assault Cannon is but there are days (more often than not) those magic sixes have a hard time showing up. If there is any way to get a Lascannon (Perhaps Venerable Dread with Las Cannon and Tank hunters if you want to waste a lot of points). However it isn't necessary.

No there is no days where that six is stubborn. Or in any case, throwing Lascannons/Meltas/Missiles or whatever would not mean that you are immune to bad luck. Statistically, a LC will always perform worse than an Assault Cannon against anything that isn't composed of Living Metal.

I was once playing against a friend who was fielding harlequins and his avatar had some wargear that meant I could only hit on a 6 in HTH, I rolled 72 dice with no sixes before finally hitting him in the next volley of dice, seeing as I have played smaller games where I probably threw 72 dice total, I would have to say that there are indeed days where the sixes just don't show up.

Posted By mauleed on 05/12/2006 9:54 AM
You think Necrons would be a problem?

Not a huge problem, but any good Necron player can seriously screw a list like this. Story time:

At Adepticon, my last game was against a Necron player, I got a turn two charge with my Assault Terminator Squad with attached Chaplain. he would just pull his casualties out of CC and take his leadership 10 test. His turn he would Monolith out of combat shoot and I would charge again, rinse repeat. Incredibly hard to take down that many Warrriors especially with Monoliths and Resurrection Ords around.

 

Your assault cannons will be meaningless against Monoliths and good luck trying to get a chainfist on it (6 to hit, 6 to glance), Trying to take down Warriors won't be fun and have fun taking that many 2+ saves from Shooting. Terminator Armor ain't nothing when you have to roll a bucket.

Honestly, I think that most armies with low model counts and a desire to get into CC are going to have trouble with a Monolith / Orb rinse-repeat Necron list. That sounds pretty frustrating, Mahu.

As for the list... having played against a similar list a number of times in the past few months, I'd say that The Happy Anarchist has the right of it. Those ACs will do fine. A Ven Dread with LC and Tank Hunters will certainly move this more toward a more traditional Dwing, but I don't think it's necessary.

I really like the Assault Terminators in the list -- I think they'll perform really well, even if only as a fire soak. I agree with Warpriest that you might get more consistent value out of more assault cannons, but... well, hell, the Assault Terminators will be more fun than another identical squad, and that's a good chunk of the reason for playing, right?

Pelarr.

Posted By happypants on 05/12/2006 10:02 AM
I was once playing against a friend who was fielding harlequins and his avatar had some wargear that meant I could only hit on a 6 in HTH, I rolled 72 dice with no sixes before finally hitting him in the next volley of dice, seeing as I have played smaller games where I probably threw 72 dice total, I would have to say that there are indeed days where the sixes just don't show up.

My only point against Assault Cannons are that you are always looking for that 1 in 6 chance of getting a six and sometimes that doesn't happen, and to rely totally on that could be a bane some games more than a boon.

I am of the opinion that you are always better off having a mixture of insane weapons than to just rely on one. You are good on assault cannons if you have 6 in 2000 points let alone 10.

I partially agree with Mahu. Necrons with monoliths will give you a hard time. I had a similiar situation happen in the 2nd game of the gladiator against necrons I charged a 14 man squad of necrons with my Librarian command squad. The same thing happened. Then I charged the monolith and it was then shown to me that PF's don't get the Str 8 against the 'lith. He showed me right there in the rules and I was like man this thing is Librace Gay....how gay is that? Pretty damn gay.... Ed, I'm not really sure what you would take to against the necron list of Suck and Blow? but I'd still keep the list like that since the chance encounter with the S&B? list would be few and far between. Unless you hit up an Adepticon sometime.. On another note, why not a chappy with Crosius and Thunderhammer? It would seem that getting those re-rolls in close combat would be nasty as hell and the chappy is cheaper, and can kill just as good as the Libby with the Thunder Hammer if need be. Oh those re-rolls are sick with Termies! Capt K

Do you guys actually play that powerfists don't work vs. monoliths out there? I haven't really examined the rule, but I've never seen someone actually play it that way.

Necrons haven't been a problem for me in the past. Either they huddle up, and I can get into assault with multiple units (and fear REALLY hurts), or they don't, and I can isolate and shoot parts of the army. Nothing in the necron army wants to be trading shots with this type of army.

 

OK. I just did the math on the list you posted and it works out to 1814 points. If this is going to go to 1850 points, then I would recommend some changes.
Remove the teleport homer from the sgt. Completely remove the assault squad. Give all units tank hunter and pods. Remove the furious charge from the libby and squad. Add one ven dread with tankunter, TLLC/ML with pod. This will bring the list to 1839 points. Any list with armor doesnt really have a good chance againt this list. If this is an all comers list, the versatility of all the squads having tank hunters will be good.

You think Necrons would be a problem?

The only problem I think they will give you is perhaps destroyer mobility and the monolith. The monolith will be a big problem with this list. Other wise, the lack of AP weaponry in the necron list should'nt give you too much of a problem. I have played against my buddies deathwing back when I was using the necrons alot, and I have never lost a battle to the deathwing. Keep in mind though, that that was before assault cannons were such a trick gun.

I tied up so many units with my scarabs (since destroyers were now almost worthless to take) that once he finally dislodged the buggers, he was now in thick with immortals and lords with scythes.

So after that diatribe, I will say that"no" all terminators wont likely work in an all comers list. Even though having a high termie count is good, it just cant deal effectively with everything.

Give me an example of something it can't deal with?

Yeah I am not seeing the big deal with the Necrons either. That wash repeat crap will work for a couple turns at best with the amount of concentrated fire/assualt terminator attacks off a furious charge. Don't even mention the 2+ save they will be getting ALL game.

I find Deathwing to have trouble with assaulty WWP DE armies. That's just off the top of my head.

You have to keep in mind Yair, Ed doesnt feel the DE to be a serious threat, to anything.

Lets see what else it cant deal with. Most horde assaulty armies are going to be a pain.

Posted By syr8766 on 05/12/2006 1:58 PM
I find Deathwing to have trouble with assaulty WWP DE armies. That's just off the top of my head.

I haven't played against one of those in years. Who's running that?

Gary (Garrison68) was running one a few months ago that gave me fits. Then again, I was mostly foot-slogging my DW. Had I been DPing, it might have been a different story.

Posted By methoderik on 05/12/2006 1:57 PM

Yeah I am not seeing the big deal with the Necrons either. That wash repeat crap will work for a couple turns at best with the amount of concentrated fire/assualt terminator attacks off a furious charge. Don't even mention the 2+ save they will be getting ALL game.

It is the fact that you can't tie them up in assault and half-their casualties are getting up a turn. Also 2+ doesn't protect you against a bucket. Of coarse most Necron players don't take 4 or 5 squads of 20 Warriors.

Umm... gang, I'm coming up with 1869 for the list he posted. Which means he's 19 points over. That's assuming there's a Storm Shield on the Librarian. Even without it, it's 9 points over.

I'm not sure about a homer/drop pod mix. Strictly speaking, the homer has to be on the table at the start of the turn, so teleporting terminators wouldn't be able to take advantage of the homers that pod in on the same turn. Plus, you've got less pods to use as cover in that case. On the upside, if you could trim down the points, that is 30 terminators, most of them pod dropped, and that's pretty damn impressive.

Can't talk you into using dreads, can I? One of the nice things we've noticed about dreads mixed in with DW terminators on the drop is that they tend to receive a good bit of fire after they do their damage. The AC/HF dread almost always bites it a turn later. But that's a commitment of firepower that's not hitting your terminators. Plus, you just can't ignore the dread if it's stomping that close to you. Anything that reduces the pressure on the terminators is a good thing, in my mind, and you can buy two for the cost of one drop pod terminator unit.

The assault squad serves a similar purpose here. The problem is that I think it's a pretty big points sink. I mean, when it hits the table, hopefully the assault cannons will have done their damage. If you drop the assault termies right, then you might be able to minimize the return fire to them. But what's stopping someone from just moving away? They have to sit there for a whole turn, out in the open. It's basically the same as being entangled. Your opponent can react to them, they can shoot them, etc. At least the dread gets its damage in.

Honestly, I hate to say it, but I don't think assault terminators belong anywhere but in a land raider. And I don't think a land raider belongs in a list that's less than 2000 points. Hopefully the DA codex will allow DW to mix in assault weapons again, but until that happens I just can't buy into it. I'd rather have the AC's and stormbolters every time. And if it's IC's you're worried about toasting terminators, then the dread works out for you anyways. Dreads also give the deathwing the ability to sweeping advance, which has its uses.

This list does play with some neat concepts. I'd like to see how it develops.

Ezz