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Well it looks like the codex might be out in time for the next generation to use, but I'll have to work something out with the current one.

I'm going to skip the kans and KFF, and just take grots, as everyone seems to think that they are the next best thing.

Here's a grotted up list, hopefully with the old golgrim flavour still there.
Tell me what you think, as I'd like to get out there again with something that might play.


HQ: warboss golgrim. power klaw, choppa, eavy armour, big horns, cybork body. 111

HQ: Painboss. choppa and slugga, dok's tools, frag stikbombs. 8 cyborks, truck w grots + rockit. 171

Elites: Skarboys x14 incl. nob with power klaw and big horns. 3 burnas. 218

Troops: Sluggas x18 incl. nob with power klaw, rockit and big horns, 3 rockits. 227
Troops: Sluggas x16 incl. nob with iron gob, 3 big shootas. 185
Troops: tankbustas x10 oncl. nob with rockit and big horns, 3 rockits. 156
Troops: 17 grots plus slaver with squighound. 65
Troops: 17 grots plus slaver with squighound. 65

Fast attack: truckboys x10 incl. nob with power klaw and big horns, burna, truck with grots + rockit. 175

heavy support: Looted basilisk with indirect fire and grots. 127

TOTAL: 1500

there it is, 80 boys, 34 grots.

Good list but I definitly recomend dropping some models and bumping both Grot squads up to full size

Bolter

I don't understand this fascination with grots that everyone seems to have. Sure, in an 1850 or 2000 point list, a mob of grots can soak up a little fire. But unlike old 2nd edition, most people can choose (With a morale roll.) to fire right past them and chew up the boyz behind them. Sure you can take that cover roll, but a 5+ is not my idea of a 'grot shield'.

My only suggestion is that you take a Leman Russ (If you have one) instead of the Bassie. A Leman with armour plates can draw heavy weapons fire like an outhouse draws flies. Remember that a battlecannon is almost as good as an earthshaker and if you draw fire from that lascannon in the Devastator Squad, the heavy bolters in the squad can't shoot your boyz. I've seen an armour plated Leman with a Kustom FF Mekboy nearby, take fire from every Marine heavy weapon on the board for 4 turns. Each Immobilize was fixed by the Grot riggers and the weapons kept getting repaired by the Mek The darned thing never hit ANYTHING, but the Marine just couldn't stop firing at it... right up until the moment my boyz charged into assault with him.

Just a thought for you. The Leman, fire magnet should work fairly well in a 1500 point game.

Fedral:
A Leman Russ is only really better if the army has Kans/Dreadnoughts or other vehicles that will be in LOS of the enemy. Trukks will almost always be out of LOS and if they aren't, very few opponents will be stupid enough to fire their AT shot at a Leman Russ when a full Trukk is in view.

As for grots, they are a fantastic buy. The Living shield rule is certainly worth it. Losing a 3 point grot instead of a 8/9 (or more) point Boy is an option that any smart player can recognize.

Beyond that, they are an unbelievably cheap scoring unit that has a ton of staying power (per point). They allow you to sneak another heavy weapon into your army (the Slaver). With a Squighound and their special morale rules they are actually quite resilient, and if they do break from shooting you can use their regrouping rule to do some rather sneaky redeployment of the unit.

The squighound is also one of the few special rules in the game that lets you blanket re-roll any type of Leadership test, including such kooky things as target priority and psychic tests that force Leadership tests.


Golgrim:

There are a few problems I see with your list.


1) walking Skarboyz are a waste. They will just be the enemy's first priority and will thus be wiped out before they can get into combat. In a foot slogging list you need to take mainly identical units so your opponent doesn't really have a higher point-to-model ratio unit to shoot at. Just take the Skarboyz as another unit of Slugga Boyz. You'll be able to get more bodies that way too. And for god's sake, get rid of those bunas! Burnas in a slogging unit (especially in a unit that will be shot at first) will never get to fire. Why give free VPs to your opponent?


2) Tankbustas. You can take 'em, but to make them survive you'll really need to find some 4+ cover and keep the unit in it. It can work in some situations, but with that 24" range you're pretty dependent on the right circumstances to make the unit worthwhile. I think just taking more Sluggas with Rokkits is a better bet, even though they won't perform nearly as well against the higher AV vehicles.


3) Your Slavers should have Rokkits (or at least Big Shootas), period.


4) I personally don't think Dok's Tools are worth it if you can't take any orderlies along with it.

Posted By yakface on 05/22/2006 9:29 PM

 

With respect yakface, I think you are dead wrong on the whole grot issue.

Fedral:
A Leman Russ is only really better if the army has Kans/Dreadnoughts or other vehicles that will be in LOS of the enemy. Trukks will almost always be out of LOS and if they aren't, very few opponents will be stupid enough to fire their AT shot at a Leman Russ when a full Trukk is in view.

That's why you keep the trukk in reserve for a turn or so until you can maneuver it in a position to make the charge forward as your infantry reaches the enemy. (Sending it in before your footsloggers get there is just foolish.) A Leman is better all around if you put it centralized to the battlefield. I used to live by the Bassie until I started putting my Leman as close to the center as possible and IN COVER. It can sweep the battlefield of anything and has a tremendous psychological effect.

 

As for grots, they are a fantastic buy. The Living shield rule is certainly worth it. Losing a 3 point grot instead of a 8/9 (or more) point Boy is an option that any smart player can recognize.

I'd much rather finesse a Mekboy into my list with a Kustom FF. MUCH cheaper and the save applies to every unit in the area. So much more efficient than using a grot to get the same 5+ roll AND losing a unit. Buying the Mekboy for a fraction of the cost of the grots to get the same roll AND not losing ANY point unit for that save is an option that any smarter player can recognize.

Beyond that, they are an unbelievably cheap scoring unit that has a ton of staying power (per point). They allow you to sneak another heavy weapon into your army (the Slaver). With a Squighound and their special morale rules they are actually quite resilient, and if they do break from shooting you can use their regrouping rule to do some rather sneaky redeployment of the unit.

For the same cost as the two grot mobz, I can buy a Mek and a another squad of Sluggaboyz or Shootaboyz. Sure I am down one mob, but I make up for it with a mob of Toughness 4 and much better WS and Attacks. I don't like charging a mob of Toughness 3 and no save against double tapping Marines. It usually takes the Marines all of 2 rounds of shooting to demolish or break a 30 strong grot mob. No thanks, give me Boyz anytime.

The squighound is also one of the few special rules in the game that lets you blanket re-roll any type of Leadership test, including such kooky things as target priority and psychic tests that force Leadership tests.

I think shooting illustrates the futility of grots in their present form. Set up your grots the forward edge of your deployment zone. Assume for the moment that your opponent has a brain cell in his head and sets up an inch back from his starting line..The Marine has now set up his forces 25" from you. Let's say the Ork Gods are good to you and you go first.. You advance 6" and are unable to reach your opponent with your 12" range grot blastas. On Marine turn one, he shoots the hell out of your grots. Next turn, you advance 6" and are still out of range. On his turn, he shoots you again. (If you are lucky, this is where you make your first break test.) On to turn 3... You advance and are finally in range. You fire your S3 blastas with your BS of 2 against your T4 3+ AS opponent. against whom, even if you had a full mob of 30, the odds say you should only kill 1. (10 hits out of 30 with BS 2, Wound 3-4 with S3 vs T4. And 0-1 missed saves in the hits.) Now you try to charge, but they are 7" away. On their turn 3, they either double tap (Rapid fire.) and cause you to make another break test or they charge you and break your little grot noses.

 

In old 2nd Edition, when you could block sight behind you by putting grots in base to base contact (Or any other unit in base to base with it's squadmates.), they were very useful little buggers. With the 'make a morale roll and shoot past covering units' ability, the Orks and Tyranids get hurt... and another unit to sit on the scrapheap until the new Codex.

 

Just FYI, I used to LOVE gretchin. I own about 150 of the little blighters, but I haven't used them since I made the transition to 4th Edition.

If you've stopped using Grots then you are making a mistake.

I did not compare Grots to the KFF because the KFF is indeed better at protecting Orks, hands down. You will never get that argument from me.

And Grots are not going to make their points back by shooting enemy infantry. In fact, they are unlikely to ever make their points back. But every enemy unit that shoots at the Grots instead of your Orks (or for every Grot save you make) is a victory for you as the Ork player.

A 3 point model is a 3 point model is a 3 point model. You can have the enemy gun down 3 Grots to equal a single precious Slugga boy.

The fact is, opponents never fire at Grots unless they are forced to by situation or a failed target priority test. That means you have a unit you can use to tie up lone big creatures or capture table quarters. The Slaver's Rokkit will even occasionally take down a vehicle and totally pay for the Grot unit.

Simply put, in 4th edition, it is imperative to have lots of scoring units, and Grots are among the cheapest of these. Since normal Ork units tend to be big and expensive (to take advantage of their special rules and Nob upgrades) taking Grots really adds a few more extra scoring units to the army. Something that cannot be ignored.

So take your KFF to protect your Boys, but don't leave the Gretchin at home. They will make your Orks win games.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to try it out and see what I think.
I'm allready in two minds as to whether the skars should stay, but I want to give the a few game sto prove themselves (or not).

Again, thanks for the quick and constructive replies, I'll try to get in a report when I've tried this list out.

@ Fedral - Just a few points for consideration:

A big mek w/KFF will cost at least 50% of the cost of a grot mob assuming you give him almost nothing.

A grot mob is scoring.

A big mek can only cover 6" radius. Thats probably going to be 2 units max. A grot screen can cover your entire army.

Without a grot screen every unit in the marine army can shoot at orks without a LD check. With a grot screen every failed LD check kills grots.

Your Grot screen can be used to tie up enemy units. If you are lucky & get a size 3 opponent it will block LOS across the entire front of your army.

In your own example the marines spent 2/3 turns shooting grots. This puts the rest of your army 2/3 turns closer to their lines.

Frankly there is no reason not to take em.

Yeah I'm sorry but I have to agree. Grotz are just dirt cheap. A full unit for about 100 points is awesome.
I also take 2 to help me get an advantage during deployment.
By taking in 3 heavies, as well as 2 grots, I can generally get a gist of where the opponents armour or harder hitting units are before I have to start laying down tank bustas and trukks...There's nothing like deploying your last 750 points when your opponent already has their 1500 out there.

KFF's also force you to clump units together which causes havoc when facing whirlwind armies and flamers. Sure 20 boyz now get a save, but you now have to make 15 more saves then before. At lease grots allow you to space units out and also cut off some flanks from fast moving vehicles trying to get into your line.

I guess I've been playing my Evil Sunz Klan list too long. With my Bikes, trakks and trukks, there is really no place in my Waaaggghhh for grots.

I play against too many Marine players these days. (70% of the players seem to be of one flavour or another of Marines.) With their leadership, the ability to fire at units behind the grots is something of a foregone conclusion. I'm not saying that they are completely useless... against an Imperial Guard, Tau or even Eldar list, they could help keep the boyz protected.

@ dakari-mane: One mob of grots can't protect your whole army unless you spead them in a one rank layer aross your entire frontage and then as soon as you take casualties, the ends of the line shrink in at frightening rates.

I've just watched my grots get hit too many times by incedental fire and be driven to ground. I've also watched as my opponents use their independent character (Not bothering to waste a squad to do the job.) to pop my runtherd/slaver and poof, no more grots. After the 6th or 7th time this happens, you get soured on using grots. I tried an all grot army once for giggles. Five full mobs of grots backed up by a couple of units of Skarboys with burnaz and a Leman. It was a disaster. The Marines hit just enough fire to cause a break test and then moved on to the next mob. Half my army went to ground on the first round. It was like pulling teeth getting them back in the game. All in all, not fun.

Like I said, maybe I'm jaded by my experiences, but even your average player can deal with grots as they are written in the Codex... and my area doesn't have many just average players.

I've found that leading my grots with my warboss tends to make them stick around.

But hey each to their own.

If you go Speed Freeks, that is an entirely different story.  But it appears you have decided to go footsloggers.

Small Shoota boy squads with maxed big shootas.  (if they run away, 36 range lets them still hit stuff when they regroup)

Large Slugga Boy squads with maxed rokkit launchas (shoot stuff on the way in)

Grots with slaver and squighound

Probably take some ammo runts for your tankbusta nob.

Leman Russ instead of Basilisk (Basilisk has this HUGE profile, it is so easy to target it isn't funny.  Unless you're your opponent, in which case you're laughing)

Stormboyz instead of trukkboyz (one shot, blammo.  And can you REALLY say your opponent isn't gonna take even one land speeder with assault cannon?  Or bikes with melta?  Or whatever?)

Dump the Warboss.  He's optional per Chapter Approved.

Grab some Mekboyz with Kustom Field.

Dump the Warboss. He's optional per Chapter Approved.

What?

this can't be true, otherwise no-one would play the boss anymore. where in chapter approved (and what year) does it say this?

There is no Chapter Approved rules change that allows a player not to take a Warboss in a footslogger army.

-I would run the Warboss as cheap as possible, and give him a rockit instead of a choppa. Powerklaw, Rokkit, and cybork body.

-Dok's Tool's are only one point, and as long as you use them on dead cyborks...i don't see how you could go wrong. Oh, and give him a rokkit too!

-I would try to make most of the squads 20 strong, and drop the big horns. By the time you're taking straight leadership checks, the +1 LD prolly won't help much as you'll be down to 3 or 4 orks and outnumbered in CC.

-One unit of 20 grots is probably fine, definetely give the slaver a rokkit.

-Give your Nobz rokkits and drop the big shootas. Give your trukkboyz a rokkit too, hell give the nob a rokkit also! Multiple rokkits ROKKK!

-Drop the tankbustaz, you'll have plenty of other rokkits throughout your army.

We used rokkits exclusively at Adepticon, with each team having about 15 rokkits per 1000 pts, so we had 30 for each game. Rokkits are cheap and HURT when they hit, regardless, AND they are assault weapons!

Rokkits are great but I'm not sure running them on IC and Nobz built for hth. I always prefer the extra attack in hth for cheaper points.
I have a BS and Rokkit heavy list. Few TL Rokkit buggies don't go a stray either if you have the points spare. Rokkits on all trukks and boyz who you plan on reaching hth.
Save the BS's for flash gitz or something else.
Big Hornz are a must. 6 points or so at giving you +1 leadeship. It is invaluable when most leadership tests will be taken at 6 or 7+ base.

Here's my modified list, incorporating the cunning attack squig taktik:

HQ: warboss golgrim. power klaw, choppa, eavy armour, big horns, cybork body. 111

HQ: Painboss. choppa and slugga, dok's tools, frag stikbombs. 8 cyborks, truck w grots + rockit. 171

Elites: Skarboys x14 incl. nob with power klaw, big horns and 3 attack squigs. 3 burnas. 236

Troops: Sluggas x13 incl. nob with power klaw, rockit, big horns and 3 attack squigs, 3 rockits. 200
Troops: Sluggas x13 incl. nob with iron gob and 3 attack squigs. 3 big shootas. 176
Troops: tankbustas x10 incl. nob with rockit, big horns and 3 attack squigs. 3 rockits. 174
Troops: 16 grots plus slaver with squighound and rocket. 70
Troops: 16 grots plus slaver with squighound. 62

Fast attack: truckboys x10 incl. nob with power klaw and big horns, burna, truck with grots + rockit. 175

heavy support: Looted basilisk with indirect fire. 125

TOTAL: 1500