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ok guys so im a KDK player trying to expand out to CSM and i made the following list based of the new traitors hate books

looking for all tips and need to knows about doing this jump

Chaos warband

HQ:
Chaos Lord (147pts): Warlord, Terminator Armour, Gift of Mutation, Mark of Khorne, Chainfist, Meltagun (Combi-Weapon)

Elites:
5xChosen (210pts):Gift of Mutation, Icon of Wrath, Lascannon, Mark of Khorne 3x Replace boltgun w/ Plasma gun
Helbrute (125pts): Power fist, Twin-linked lascannon

Troops:
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (220pts): Gift of Mutation, Icon of Vengeance, Mark of Khorne , Plasma Gun, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession,
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (220pts): Gift of Mutation, Icon of Vengeance, Mark of Khorne , Plasma Gun,

Fast Attack:
3x Chaos Bikers (119pts) Mark of Khorne , 2x Meltagun, Gift of Mutation,

Maelstrom of Gore

HQ:
Kharn the Betrayer (160pts)

Troops:
5x Khorne Berzerkers (185pts): 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession
5x Khorne Berzerkers (135pts) 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol
5x Khorne Berzerkers (135pts) 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol
5x Khorne Berzerkers (135pts) 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol

Right, I am very strong believer in giving assault troops (particularly things like Khorne Berzerkers) in transports. So to free up the points for said transports do you really need all those Icons? Particularly with MSU because you're paying a fixed cost for what could potentially be massive units - basically taking Icons is very inefficient for small units. I'd also so you don't really need some of the Marks of Khorne too - like the Chosen with Plasma Guns, they're shooty, why do they need a CC mark (aside from maintaining fluff). So I'd say drop the Icons because they aren't that great and get your Berserkers transports.

Secondly, I think you need more anti-tank. Maybe tanks aren't a big thing in your area but one Helbrute, some Bikers and Plasma Chosen aren't going to be enough for an armoured list. Perhaps give the CSM a Missile Launcher in the squads? I know that shooting isn't Khorne's thing so it's difficult to get right but that's just a feeling I get.

Yeah.. Way too many points spent on icons that can easily get sniped out of those small units... Icons are a lot more cost effective the bigger the unit is.

I would also drop those icons for some transports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also- you lose some benefits of the black crusade detacemt without an auxiliary selection... A single spawn will take care of that.

thanks guys for the feed back. played around a bit with it and here what i have now:

Chaos warband

HQ:
Chaos Lord (147pts): Warlord, Terminator Armour, Gift of Mutation, Mark of Khorne, Chainfist, Meltagun (Combi-Weapon)

Elites:
5xChosen (170pts):Gift of Mutation, Lascannon, 3x Replace boltgun w/ Plasma gun
Helbrute (125pts): Power fist, Twin-linked lascannon

Troops:
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (185pts): Gift of Mutation, Plasma Gun, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession,
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (130pts): Gift of Mutation, Plasma Gun,

Fast Attack:
3x Chaos Bikers (103pts) 2x Meltagun,
3x Chaos Bikers (103pts) 2x Meltagun,

Maelstrom of Gore

HQ:
Kharn the Betrayer (160pts)

Troops:
5x Khorne Berzerkers (185pts): 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession
5x Khorne Berzerkers (185pts): 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession
5x Khorne Berzerkers (135pts) 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol
5x Khorne Berzerkers (135pts) 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol

I would drop 2 plasmas from the Bezerkers for a Spawn- now you get Hatred (armies of the imperium)

I would also drop both gifts of mutation. With points saved from 1 of them you can give each biker champ Melta bombs- and from the other I would give that rhino a dirge caster and an extra combi bolter... Or not an extra combi bolter and throw another Melta bomb somewhere. Never underestimate the dirge caster!!! Moving your rhino flat out so a unit of yours that is about to charge doesn't eat overwatch can be quite satisfying (especially against Dark Angels!)

justin12270 wrote:

Chaos warband

HQ:
Chaos Lord (147pts): Warlord, Terminator Armour, Gift of Mutation, Mark of Khorne, Chainfist, Meltagun (Combi-Weapon)

Elites:
5xChosen (170pts):Gift of Mutation, Lascannon, 3x Replace boltgun w/ Plasma gun
Helbrute (125pts): Power fist, Twin-linked lascannon

Troops:
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (185pts): Gift of Mutation, Plasma Gun, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession,
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (130pts): Gift of Mutation, Plasma Gun,

Fast Attack:
3x Chaos Bikers (103pts) 2x Meltagun,
3x Chaos Bikers (103pts) 2x Meltagun,

Maelstrom of Gore

HQ:
Kharn the Betrayer (160pts)

Troops:
5x Khorne Berzerkers (185pts): 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession
5x Khorne Berzerkers (185pts): 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession
5x Khorne Berzerkers (135pts) 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol
5x Khorne Berzerkers (135pts) 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol

- You've still got 2 core choices, so you're missing out on all the benefits of the black legion Warband detachment because you don't have an auxiliary choice
- You've listed the Helbrute under elite instead of heavy support in the Warband (even though it is normally an elite choice)
- You don't need Chainaxes unless you fight necron warriors a bunch because you're going to annihilate anything with a 4+ or less anyway and 3ppm adds up fast
- Don't put Daemonic Possession on transports, not only does it have a chance at eating some of the squad every time they embark or disembark but you only ignore stunned (the one that matters for a transport since they need to move) and shaken (doesn't matter for a rhino since it's only got a combi bolter) on a 2+ whereas extra armour downgrades stunned to shaken 100% of the time, and costs less without lowering your BS. Regardless, neither of them are worth it on a rhino
- Plasma pistols are incredibly expensive for what is effectively a one use item
- You don't need gifts on CSM aspiring champions
- The points cost of your bikers are out, 3 bikes with 2x meltas is 90, not 103
- You've got no escort or mode of transport for the lord
- Terminator armour is bad for a lord unless you are already wasting points on a land raider (which is also a bad plan unless you are taking Kharn in which case it's basically mandatory)
- You've got no way of getting Kharn into combat before turn 3
- Why do you have the random Lascannon in the chosen squad?
- Why do the chosen not have a transport?
- Twin linked lascannons aren't worth it over free multi meltas on Helbrutes

There's no rhyme nor reason to any of this list, what are you trying to achieve and are you trying to make do with the models that you already own?

 Drasius wrote:

justin12270 wrote:

Chaos warband

HQ:
Chaos Lord (147pts): Warlord, Terminator Armour, Gift of Mutation, Mark of Khorne, Chainfist, Meltagun (Combi-Weapon)

Elites:
5xChosen (170pts):Gift of Mutation, Lascannon, 3x Replace boltgun w/ Plasma gun
Helbrute (125pts): Power fist, Twin-linked lascannon

Troops:
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (185pts): Gift of Mutation, Plasma Gun, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession,
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (130pts): Gift of Mutation, Plasma Gun,

Fast Attack:
3x Chaos Bikers (103pts) 2x Meltagun,
3x Chaos Bikers (103pts) 2x Meltagun,

Maelstrom of Gore

HQ:
Kharn the Betrayer (160pts)

Troops:
5x Khorne Berzerkers (185pts): 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession
5x Khorne Berzerkers (185pts): 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol, Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession
5x Khorne Berzerkers (135pts) 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol
5x Khorne Berzerkers (135pts) 4x Chainaxes , Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol

- You've still got 2 core choices, so you're missing out on all the benefits of the black legion Warband detachment because you don't have an auxiliary choice
- You've listed the Helbrute under elite instead of heavy support in the Warband (even though it is normally an elite choice)
- You don't need Chainaxes unless you fight necron warriors a bunch because you're going to annihilate anything with a 4+ or less anyway and 3ppm adds up fast
- Don't put Daemonic Possession on transports, not only does it have a chance at eating some of the squad every time they embark or disembark but you only ignore stunned (the one that matters for a transport since they need to move) and shaken (doesn't matter for a rhino since it's only got a combi bolter) on a 2+ whereas extra armour downgrades stunned to shaken 100% of the time, and costs less without lowering your BS. Regardless, neither of them are worth it on a rhino
- Plasma pistols are incredibly expensive for what is effectively a one use item
- You don't need gifts on CSM aspiring champions
- The points cost of your bikers are out, 3 bikes with 2x meltas is 90, not 103
- You've got no escort or mode of transport for the lord
- Terminator armour is bad for a lord unless you are already wasting points on a land raider (which is also a bad plan unless you are taking Kharn in which case it's basically mandatory)
- You've got no way of getting Kharn into combat before turn 3
- Why do you have the random Lascannon in the chosen squad?
- Why do the chosen not have a transport?
- Twin linked lascannons aren't worth it over free multi meltas on Helbrutes

There's no rhyme nor reason to any of this list, what are you trying to achieve and are you trying to make do with the models that you already own?

yea like i said. im a pure Khonre Daemonkin. and came into the game as a Khonre Daemonkin. so this is the 1st time branching out to CSM.thats why im only using what i have. minus the chosen which i just got.

3rd update

Chaos warband

HQ:
Chaos Lord (147pts): Warlord, Terminator Armour, Gift of Mutation, Mark of Khorne, Chainfist, Meltagun (Combi-Weapon)

Elites:
5xChosen (170pts):, Lascannon, 3x Replace boltgun w/ Plasma gun
Helbrute (125pts): Power fist, Twin-linked lascannon

Troops:
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (170pts): Plasma Gun, Chaos Rhino with Dirge Caster & Extra Armour
5x Chaos Marine 4x with Boltgun (130pts):, Plasma Gun,

Fast Attack:
3x Chaos Bikers (100pts) 2x Meltagun,
3x Chaos Bikers (100pts) 2x Meltagun,

Maelstrom of Gore

HQ:
Kharn the Betrayer (160pts)

Troops:
5x Khorne Berzerkers (173pts): Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol, Chaos Rhino with Dirge Caster & Extra Armour
5x Khorne Berzerkers (173pts): Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol, Chaos Rhino with Dirge Caster & Extra Armour
5x Khorne Berzerkers (123pts) Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol
5x Khorne Berzerkers (123pts) Plasma Pistol, 4x Bolt Pistol

Spawn

2x spawn (64pts)

So- for a friendly environment, this list wil do ok and you'll probably win a game here and there. It is far from optimized. Now, I know in friendly environments you don't want optimized, but for CSM- you kinda have to optimize even for frindly games.

One thing that is really cool about this list- you have a bunch of CSM models on the board and it will feel like a CSM warband!
I think it will be a fun list to play in friendly games- you will win occasionally, and if played right, you can keep the losses close.
Run the list for a few games and you'll see a few tweets you can make here and there. Adding those 2 spawn makes a big dif... They themselves may not do a lot- but by including them, your whole army becomes a "Black Crusade Detachment" and gains some added buffs.

A CSM Chaos Lord is a fairly cheap, very flexible CC monster. Provided he can get into CC, which Terminator Lords have difficulties to do. Instead, put him on a bike with SoC and ax. Join the bikers or add Spawns for ablative wounds.

Chosen are suboptimal (as is most of the codex). What is their role? If fire support Havocs would be better, if mobility the lascannon won't be useful.

As already suggested - drop Gifts, Icons, DP, plasma pistols, Chainaxes. use the points to buy Dirge Caster-equipped Rhinos. And beef up your Berzerker squads to 8 models each.

Due to having the detachment you can now give all your warband units the Veterans of the long war for free, meaning +1ld for everyone, which CSM really need.