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So I'm new to fantasy/AoS but been a long time fan of 40k. I have been reading up on the whole AoS debacle and such as recently I was gifted with some slave to darkness. Now for what I have been seeing and reading AoS is doing really bad, in fact I have heard that even wfb sold more then it's currently selling. I'm of the opinion that the nuking of the lore is the main culprit behind its crappy sales. Since its to the point now where AoS lore is the butt of every joke and I have yet to meet one person that is actually invested into the lore. I never got a chance to play the original wfb becuase at the time I got into the hobby it was a lot more intimidating to me vs 40k (go figure right?) but I have see some of the good and bad in the AoS rules, bad of course being is a watered down brawl game vs wfb which from what I understand was more akin to turn based total war.

So with the abysmal sales, laughing stock that the lore is, FLGS dropping AoS faster then you can blink, do you think GW will own up and say "yep we screwed up guys, our bad." Or will they keep living in their echo chamber and beat the dead horse that is?

Personally I would like to see them go back to the old lore, since it had so much more depth and history as I'm discovering but for obvious reasons they can't just say lol end times never happened. If they did do a backpedal how do you think they would do it? How would it sit with you?

Order starts loosing hardcore? Maybe slaanesh makes a deal with sigmar as his armies are falling, slaneesh agrees to send the sigmarines back in time to stop the end times, thus preventing him from getting dethroned by the horned rat, but in the process allowing the armies from sigmar to enter into the old world.

What's dakkas thought? Also sorry if this is a "oh this thread again..." Thread, new to this section of the forms

Sigmar seems to be doing really well locally, and from what I understand since the GH was released, Sigmar has started selling pretty well. I can't see GW backtracking on AoS, to the extent you mention

I wish that they retcon the fluff, and they give an alternative choices between skirmish and rank-file game. In my opinion this would be best way to handle both parties of the fanbase.

 statu wrote:
Sigmar seems to be doing really well locally, and from what I understand since the GH was released, Sigmar has started selling pretty well. I can't see GW backtracking on AoS, to the extent you mention

It could be a case of its doing well in Great Britain, here in the states it's hardly played. Most FLGS dumped it for war machine, only place I see it played is our GE store and even then, never bigger then a 4x4.

I hope they don't go back and can't see it happening.
I also pray that they give 40k the same treatment that fantasy got.

herjan1987 wrote:
I wish that they retcon the fluff, and they give an alternative choices between skirmish and rank-file game.

Honestly I think the best thing GE could do is make the game like 40ks standard game and apoc.

Basically 2 rule sets, one for AoS style games where it's focused more on characters and big rank and file games like Wfb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
I hope they don't go back and can't see it happening.
I also pray that they give 40k the same treatment that fantasy got.

I don't think they will, I mean 40k is gonna get an end times, but I think GW learned that just nuking the lore was a dumb move .

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So I'm new to fantasy/AoS but been a long time fan of 40k. I have been reading up on the whole AoS debacle and such as recently I was gifted with some slave to darkness. Now for what I have been seeing and reading AoS is doing really bad, in fact I have heard that even wfb sold more then it's currently selling. I'm of the opinion that the nuking of the lore is the main culprit behind its crappy sales. Since its to the point now where AoS lore is the butt of every joke and I have yet to meet one person that is actually invested into the lore. I never got a chance to play the original wfb becuase at the time I got into the hobby it was a lot more intimidating to me vs 40k (go figure right?) but I have see some of the good and bad in the AoS rules, bad of course being is a watered down brawl game vs wfb which from what I understand was more akin to turn based total war.

So with the abysmal sales, laughing stock that the lore is, FLGS dropping AoS faster then you can blink, do you think GW will own up and say "yep we screwed up guys, our bad." Or will they keep living in their echo chamber and beat the dead horse that is?

Personally I would like to see them go back to the old lore, since it had so much more depth and history as I'm discovering but for obvious reasons they can't just say lol end times never happened. If they did do a backpedal how do you think they would do it? How would it sit with you?

Order starts loosing hardcore? Maybe slaanesh makes a deal with sigmar as his armies are falling, slaneesh agrees to send the sigmarines back in time to stop the end times, thus preventing him from getting dethroned by the horned rat, but in the process allowing the armies from sigmar to enter into the old world.

What's dakkas thought? Also sorry if this is a "oh this thread again..." Thread, new to this section of the forms

I'm not sure, my local store has a larger AoS community than 40k, with most of our 40k community playing both games. Most people in my area like Sigmar because it's a lot more like 40k. I couldn't stand the old WFB system, so I've been more tempted to get into AoS.

The crux of WFB for new players was not so much the rules itself, it's just the sheer number of units you needed, which I give to AoS is has a lower entry price.

It's interesting though to hear that AoS has some traction, it's mostly dead in my city, it's more you have 40k players who also happen to have a small fantasy army they use for AoS.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 statu wrote:
Sigmar seems to be doing really well locally, and from what I understand since the GH was released, Sigmar has started selling pretty well. I can't see GW backtracking on AoS, to the extent you mention

It could be a case of its doing well in Great Britain, here in the states it's hardly played. Most FLGS dumped it for war machine, only place I see it played is our GE store and even then, never bigger then a 4x4.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. So I will see your anecdotal evidence and rebuttal with my anecdotal evidence of Reese from Frontline Gaming (you know, the company that runs the ITC, LVO, and BAO) saying on their podcast repeatedly that AoS has seen a huge boost in sales since the GHB was released and doing much better than WFB ever did for them. They have also had to up the registration cap on the AoS tournament at LVO due to demand and several notable 40K tournament players have recently started playing AoS (e.g. Ben Mohile, former US 40K ETC captain), which is a pretty decent endorsement of the system and not consistent with a system that is hardly being played in the US. As for my local game scene, initially, AoS did terrible, with my FLGS trying to go in on Mantic's Kings of War system, but after the GHB came out, my FLGS is no longer restocking Kings of War, and AoS is doing way better than WFB was during the last two-three years easily. I have seen more new players in the last 6 months, than the last few years combined. In fact, the most recent AoS tournament out drew the most recent 40K tournament for the first time in the store's history (been opened since the mid-90's). If anything, GW might need to be worried about AoS cannibalizing 40K sales. Personally speaking, sure the fluff is a little wonky, but the rule system is great, the models continue to be great, it is much easier to introduce new players to the game, and the momentum seems to be constantly on the upswing since the release of the GHB.



TL;DR

As to the original question, no, there will not be a rollback at least if going by what I see in terms of GW's coverage on AoS, it's undoubted success in their home market (which btw still makes up the majority of GW's revenue), their recent very positive half year financial statement which aligns closely with the period immediately following release of the GHB, and the anecdotal evidence given above.

-

AoS selling worse then WFB?? First I've heard of this... I heard AoS has been selling great.

When you say both, do you mean playing 40k and AoS or AoS and WFB?

Again my opinion is based on my local area.

Now if we are talking about 40kvs AoS yes I think AoS is superior but that is not because AoS get very thing right, it's becuase 40k for no real reason decided to jump the shark with rules with thinks like free formations, D and super heavies in non apoc games but that's another topic.

As for the fluff, honestly it's the one major part of AoS I think is a total mess up. Even the handful of big AoS fan in my area hardly care about the lore. Personally I would have been all for the new rules if they kept the old setting, but again I'm not marketer/designer.

I do acknowledge the rules from GHB helped significantly but the sloppy release left a real bad taste in people's mouth.

Either way AoS is a hell of a ride this's far.

I suppose then, do you think GW will gak back to building a more low fantasy setting rather then the super high fantasy that is AoS?

Again for me, what start to draw me into fantasy right before the nuking was the vastness of it and how even the smallest quest seemed like a massive adventure. Since everything was contained in one world every interaction was grand in a scense.

So to me with AoS you get the same effect that 40k has with event, they don't seem grand since it's a daily occurrence to blow up a space hulk. Same think with AoS I stopped some death army, but I don't know/care what they destroyed vs I saved nulin from X


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 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
AoS selling worse then WFB?? First I've heard of this... I heard AoS has been selling great.

Again I could be horribly horribly wrong, this is just everything I have read and seen locally.

Backtracking would mean to admit a mistake, and pride steps in at that point.

AoS can stay, Gw needs to backtrack by reestablishing WHFB in separation to that as a mail order only line.

 Orlanth wrote:
Backtracking would mean to admit a mistake, and pride steps in at that point.

AoS can stay, Gw needs to backtrack by reestablishing WHFB in separation to that as a mail order only line.

As a fan of BFG, man trust me is a painful wait for It to happen haha

I dont think there is any droctrine holding BF back post Kirby. Specialist games however is on full Blood Bowl mode at the moment.

I suppose then, do you think GW will gak back to building a more low fantasy setting rather then the super high fantasy that is AoS? 

No reason they can't do that in AoS. It has more than enough room to include regular towns and cities where the high fantasy stuff happens far over the horizon.

There's some books already looking into that like "Daemon of the deep" and Josh Reynolds is working on books to deal with the "slums and mercenary" side of things.

It's pretty cool to be at ground zero as they build the setting up.

No, they won't backpedal. The rules and lore will change over time like anything else.

The most a WFB player can hope for is for Forgeworld to pick it up.

It's sad that mindless trash like AOS can become the staple, but I guess thats just humanity for you.

Orlanth wrote:Backtracking would mean to admit a mistake, and pride steps in at that point.

AoS can stay, Gw needs to backtrack by reestablishing WHFB in separation to that as a mail order only line.

Pretty much sums it up. Now that AOS is at last gaining traction, there is no going boack. However, them selling the IoB set repackaged with rounds AND squares is a curious move indeed. I'm wondering if some of the sales that AOS is enjoying is legacy players trying to stock up before being phased out, and that set is a bit of a test for it.


And if GW can put out Warhammer: Ancient Battles with real life medieval armies as a basis, there's no reason they can't put out Warhammer World: Ancient Battles to cater to the retro crowd. Just do a rulebook with a healthy Ravening Hordes type section in the back of the book, OR a separate book with a beefier collection of options for each army, and the legacy gaming can commence. Now if only they base it off of 6th...

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
No, they won't backpedal. The rules and lore will change over time like anything else.

The most a WFB player can hope for is for Forgeworld to pick it up.

It's sad that mindless trash like AOS can become the staple, but I guess thats just humanity for you.

I am still holding out hope that the 4 pages of rules is just us beta testing, The rules as they are now ( I cant speak for GHB) are just garbage. You can play a bare bones game but gawd help you if there is any question, there is really only 2 pages of vague rules.The fluff is also trash, I expect that drivel from someone like mike mearls, but GW has a stable of brilliance to draw from and this is what they come up with?? on a positive note though, it is a fun little game, its not great, its not even good. but if you have little time and nothing better to play, go for it.....hopefully GW will do some more to right the ship and make a more effective rules set. There is a lot of good things to build from with AoS. Personally I prefer to play it in an old world setting ( I think with a more streamlined ruleset like AoS and the fluff of the old world they could do wonders)

However, them selling the IoB set repackaged with rounds AND squares is a curious move indeed. I'm wondering if some of the sales that AOS is enjoying is legacy players trying to stock up before being phased out, and that set is a bit of a test for it.

Yes, it is interesting.

I wonder if they keep track of these things somehow.

For example, I still purchase WFB mini's to complete the armies that I already have. Recently I bought a Wood Elf army and picked up Kurnous Hunters to use as Treekin, but I also bought square bases on the online store to mount them on. Maybe they are looking at how many people still purchase square bases.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

However, them selling the IoB set repackaged with rounds AND squares is a curious move indeed. I'm wondering if some of the sales that AOS is enjoying is legacy players trying to stock up before being phased out, and that set is a bit of a test for it.

Yes, it is interesting.

I wonder if they keep track of these things somehow.

For example, I still purchase WFB mini's to complete the armies that I already have. Recently I bought a Wood Elf army and picked up Kurnous Hunters to use as Treekin, but I also bought square bases on the online store to mount them on. Maybe they are looking at how many people still purchase square bases.

Well I am going to be interested what they will bring back in the MADE TO ORDER event for Fantasy. Also, if those models will have square bases.

We may never see true numbers of what the sales of AoS vs WHFB..
Not seeing a back petal.. but maybe a release of electronic books where you could play
the game without them having to print up any kind of books..
But I was shocked as everyone when they announced the latest box set would
have both types of bases.

But as a group we can say what our local is doing and kind of judge it that way...

We can say it is either
Strong.. more than before
Same.. about the same as before
Weak.. less than before
Dead.. see nothing going on

The 3 major St Louis shops that sales GW is..
Fantasy Shop St Charles. Dead.. Not seen a game of AoS.. 40k yes..
Game Nite Weak.. Some games but not like previous editions
Fantasy Books Fairview Hts Same.. store really pushes the game as much as 40k

We do have a games workshop store.. but most has drank the kool aid and speaking of WHFB is heresy

We now have a face book AoS group but not very active..

So average here is weak.. but growing.. Games Workshop has some nice fantasy figures.. if the game was great
they would no problem getting and staying number one in sales..

GW is not going back, remember the thought process of GW in regards to fantasy was two things:

1) Totally revamp the game into something new
2) Cancel Fantasy entirely

So they went with 1 and it seems to be working for them. Frankly the new marketing scheme GW is using now is far more efficient at just selling models then Fantasy ever was. I see no reason for GW to change course, especially since it seems to be working.

and this comes from a guy who has no particular love of AoS.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

laughing stock that the lore is

Order starts loosing hardcore? Maybe slaanesh makes a deal with sigmar as his armies are falling, slaneesh agrees to send the sigmarines back in time to stop the end times, thus preventing him from getting dethroned by the horned rat, but in the process allowing the armies from sigmar to enter into the old world.

Do I need to point out the irony? A god hellbent on destroying chaos making a deal with chaos. And how, pray tell, would Slaanesh bring back Sigmar in time? There's bad ideas but then there's this.

Also, Sigmar DID lose badly in the current setting, losing armies hardcore and 7 out of 8 of the realms all while his pantheon desintegrated. It's called the Age of Chaos and it has already happened. He ain't back pedaling, not when considering he's poured so much effort into it. Slaanesh is trapped so he/she/it/shlergn can't do anything.

The States aren't the center of the universe. In Europe it's doing a lot better. And even then your PoV seems to be skewed considering the data others bring.

Long story short: no, they ain't going back. More than anything the bases must be a thing of GW finally noticing 9th age and seeing it as a potential source of income by grabbing disenfranchised fans that will play a different ruleset all while buying their minis.

GW will not backpedal on AoS because AoS has been a success.

GW have stated in this year's financial report that AoS is selling more than WHFB has for the past few years. Not only that but even Hastings, longtime AoS hater and source of the "AoS isn't selling" rumors, now admits that AoS is selling better than WHFB had been. Here's the quote below:

"I have never attacked anyone for saying AoS was doing well, simply said that my sources at that time said it was not. It has now improved to a point where last I heard sales of AoS products are at a better level than WFB prior to end times (which saw a huge spike)."

Source: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/warofsigmar/war_of_sigmar_rumors_and_rules_for_age_of_sigmar_3365/#comment-3034675724

Haha, I think that's the most AoS' i've ever seen in one place.

Do I need to point out the irony? A god hellbent on destroying chaos making a deal with chaos. And how, pray tell, would Slaanesh bring back Sigmar in time? There's bad ideas but then there's this. 

Meh, he was just making something off the top of his head. I've read worse in that Endhammer fanfic. (Seriously, retcon 6th edition Bretonnia!?)

I think he chose Slaanesh(as Tzeentch would've been better)since the Anti-AoS crowd use the rumor of it's demise for a PG setting as a rally point. Which of course is all hog-wash if anyone actually looks into the setting.

The States aren't the center of the universe. In Europe it's doing a lot better. And even then your PoV seems to be skewed considering the data others bring. 

To be fair, he did say he might be wrong about how it's doing outside his area.

But yeah, going into a online debate with only local data to back you up is a risky move.

Long story short: no, they ain't going back. More than anything the bases must be a thing of GW finally noticing 9th age and seeing it as a potential source of income by grabbing disenfranchised fans that will play a different ruleset all while buying their minis.

I personally think it's just that the bases already had holes for the models in them so GW's options were re-use them or throw them all away.

Was a nice PR move all the same.

In my city AOS is doing well at the local GW. We have 25 people in our AOS campaign.

In the other couple FLGS stores, it might as not even exist. If you ask any of those guys how AOS is doing they will tell you no one plays it in our city, even though there is a huge AOS campaign at the GW. Because to them it might as well not exist.

This is why anecdotal evidence is worthless.

The sales will drive if AOS is continued.

Not a single person here knows the sales figures of AOS or can use the sales figures of AOS to support their claims because... you simply do not know.

Now based off of anecdotal evidence from GW managers that I know, its selling exponentially better than whfb ever did. Based off of game store managers I know, even the stores where it doesn't sell at all, neither did WHFB. Everyone already had an army. If they didn't have an army, they'd go on ebay and get it for pennies on the dollar. No one bought new fantasy models. (yes no one is an exaggeration... few people did to warrant its continued existence)

Thats why AOS happened. No I don't think its going back to whfb. No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

Personal conjecture: thank god.

I could see them backpeddle to the lore, the lore of AoS is its biggest weakness IMO. The setting is awful and retconned alot of old world. rules wise nope, model wise nope. When I say AoS is doing poorly or nonexistant here, its from the perspective of someone actually looking for a game. GW sucks, thats just how it is, tiny, 2 "tables" to play on (they are 4x4) and usually crowded with 40k players, no room to breathe let alone hold any "event" but everywhere else you go in town its either x-wing or warmahordes (I hate them both, but locally they are kicking gw's arse)

Yeah. Our GW is small too. We have three 6x4 tables, and we can reserve them but its nothing like an LGS that has a lot of gaming room.

Our gaming is a lot of xwing as well. Warmachine is really not very well represented at all which surprises me considering how competitive my region tends to be.

I like the lore! Also I like that they are finally returning to beastmen in some form, even if it's the god worshipping ones.