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If we push away EndTimes for a second.....


1.) In Pre-EndTimes Fiction, do we ever see any commentary from the servants of the Ruinous Powers (or the Big 4 themselves) regarding the Skaven? Or the Horned Rat for that matter?

I mean the more i think about it, the Skaven and the Horned Rat kind of end up inhabiting that "social role" that was supposed to be upheld by Malalal/Malice....

You know, "of Chaos" but not really caring about what the Big 4 were doing.


2.) The relationship (if any) between Clan Pestilens and Nurgle?

I mean i understand Theology-Wise that Clan Pestilens kind of sees the Horned Rat as a spiritual disease.... Do they just outright ignore the possible Nurgle connection to their obsession though?

Overlap is possible of course - Khorne being the primary god of murder/violence/slaughter/etc. yet Khaine and Gork/Mork kind of filling a sub-role for their respective races in that matter.....

It is heavily implied that Khaine and Korne are just aspects of the same thing. Pretty sure the Khorne book says as much. Keep in mind that these are just amalgamations of psychic projection, so an elf would perceive it (and project) differently than a man, dwarf, etc. But the net result is that it empowers the same entity, though it likely also produces fractures in said entity as well. Same goes for Pestilens. Portraying them as coherent, monolithic beings is something that the orderly people due, but isn't really accurate. The are collective beliefs fueled by warp energy. It's why as you look at what they represent, the distinction grows more and more murky. The names, details, etc, are distinct to each group's interpretation.

Likewise, the species gods (Gork/Mork, Horned Rat, etc.) are sort of a psychic gestalt of that group. As the group grows in number and power, the "god" grows because it receives more projection. Likewise as a group dwindles, such as the High Elves, so do their "gods" (which are largely just conceptual personifications such as life, warfare, etc), though they can refocus to empower them.

 jmurph wrote:
It is heavily implied that Khaine and Korne are just aspects of the same thing. Pretty sure the Khorne book says as much. Keep in mind that these are just amalgamations of psychic projection, so an elf would perceive it (and project) differently than a man, dwarf, etc. But the net result is that it empowers the same entity, though it likely also produces fractures in said entity as well. Same goes for Pestilens. Portraying them as coherent, monolithic beings is something that the orderly people due, but isn't really accurate. The are collective beliefs fueled by warp energy. It's why as you look at what they represent, the distinction grows more and more murky. The names, details, etc, are distinct to each group's interpretation.

Likewise, the species gods (Gork/Mork, Horned Rat, etc.) are sort of a psychic gestalt of that group. As the group grows in number and power, the "god" grows because it receives more projection. Likewise as a group dwindles, such as the High Elves, so do their "gods" (which are largely just conceptual personifications such as life, warfare, etc), though they can refocus to empower them.

Now you see - i understand all that, but GW is always shall we say........indecisive about their portrayal of the Gods whether in 40K or in Fantasy.


And in the specific case of the Gods that aren't the Ruinous Powers, they have been heavily implied (and now confirmed if you do allow the End Times business to play out) to have been simply the Survivors of a previous Cycle of Reality.

This is even hinted/supported at before End Times was a thing, take a look at Storm of Chaos Fluff and Tome of Salvation items from WHFRPG. Let me pull 2 examples:

The Shadow Blade

This myth is not known to the cults, for it comes from the Asur, whom I have had the fortune of discussing these matters with. When the Great Gates collapsed, and the mutating energies of the Aethyr were released, mourning Verena was approached by Taal to join the defence against the Dark Gods. He had become king after his father, Asuryan, had been struck down by the Blood God, and was ralying those who still lived. After much persuasion, Verena eventually agreed to join the survivors at the Great Pyramid.

The person giving the comment, a Magister of the Grey Order, continues the narrative - linking Verena with Hoeth but dismissing the theory thinking that this can't be true.

Yet a few pages later (from a completely different source).

The Dark Gods

And then the Cataclysm came. King Taal rose from his Forest, and with Dark Morr muttering dire portents in His eear, He Banished all immortals from the world. But the Cataclysm's architects refused His Order. The Crow, the Hound, the Serpent and the Vulture were jealous of King Taal, had tried to use the Great Gates to take what was His.

They had failed. As other immortals fled, the Four Attacked, bitter and angry with their frustrations.
Many died.
After Countless battles, King Taal was eventually surrounded. There were few still by his side. Ulric the Wolf. Noble Margileo. Just Verena. Sotek the Snake. Manann of the Sea. And Gentle Shallya, tear-stained and afraid.
Even Smiling Ranald had fled, and now hid in the Places Between, fearful of the future.
Then, just as the Four and their allies arrived for the Final Battle, Flaming Phoenix, whom all had thought dead, returned from atop his Gleaming Pyramid, and he Smote about Him. Thus the Rebels were pushed behind the Great Gates, and were sealed forever."

The narratives aren't exactly the same (and that seems purposeful since each race is filtering actual events through a mythological context), but the story points to common elements

1.) A set of Individuals (who if we are to believe Lileath, weren't Gods at that time..... perhaps Old Ones?) attempting to Beat Back Chaos leaking from the Polar Gates.
2.) These individuals are the Last People Standing (Because everyone else is Fleeing... again... Old Ones?)
3.) There is a Last Stand at a Pyramid (which would fit the Slann mythology)
4.) Victory is brought about because of the return of Asuryan, or Flaming Phoenix, or however you wish to call him....

In this case, the Gods of the Human/Elven/Dwarven Races look less like mere Conceptual Personifications... but were at -one- point in time - Individuals. Perhaps a better term would be Individuals who bear a sort of Portfolio or Job function. For all we know, Shallya could have been "Old One Physician" who got elevated to her position because she stuck around with the last survivors.

Probably the most recent example of this, would be Sigmar Heldenhammer no?

The "Other Gods", - the Ruinous Powers, The Horned Rat, Malice, Gork/Mork, etc. I get when you say they are "Conceptual Personifications", simply because we -can't- trace them back to a specific individual. There is no Ur-Skaven who ascended to Godhood, they always "were.' so to speak.

Yeah, it does seem like the named gods (particularly of the elves) stem from an originator being (whether originally mortal or not is often unclear) even if they still seem to draw on the same power base. I agree that they also seem to retain distinctness throughout incarnations.

The End Times underscored this in a way that some of the prior fiction seemed to contradict a bit.

 jmurph wrote:
It is heavily implied that Khaine and Korne are just aspects of the same thing. Pretty sure the Khorne book says as much. Keep in mind that these are just amalgamations of psychic projection, so an elf would perceive it (and project) differently than a man, dwarf, etc. But the net result is that it empowers the same entity, though it likely also produces fractures in said entity as well. Same goes for Pestilens. Portraying them as coherent, monolithic beings is something that the orderly people due, but isn't really accurate. The are collective beliefs fueled by warp energy. It's why as you look at what they represent, the distinction grows more and more murky. The names, details, etc, are distinct to each group's interpretation.

Likewise, the species gods (Gork/Mork, Horned Rat, etc.) are sort of a psychic gestalt of that group. As the group grows in number and power, the "god" grows because it receives more projection. Likewise as a group dwindles, such as the High Elves, so do their "gods" (which are largely just conceptual personifications such as life, warfare, etc), though they can refocus to empower them.

I got a Witch Elf from the Talisman/Warhammer Quest set of minis back when they were doing the "toy box" campaign and she had the symbol of Khorne on her headdress. So yeah, I'd say Khaine=Khorne is pretty indisputable.