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This is a tangent from my Project Zeta thread. Project Zeta itself is focused on fixing common complaints about the core rules. This thread is only indirectly related. Rules proposed in this thread do not have to work with Zeta, although that is an option.

I've seen and participated in many 'fix this codex' threads and often people chime in to say things like 'but that still won't compete with scatter bikes' or 'this formation makes that useless'. This can lead to the death of a thread because you can't just fix one codex and hope all of your balance problems will go away. I did a search of this forum and could not find any thread which attempted to address all codices together, it was always one or two books in isolation.
I'd like to see all codicies re-written by the community simultaneously. Below are the goals and 'rules' of how I think we should go about this.

Goals
• All major codices to have as close to equal power as we can achieve. Minor codices (SoB, GC, Harlequins etc) do not need to have the same power level in all fields as they may not have suitable units.
• All units within a codex are to have as close to equal value for their points as possible. There shall be no 'must take' and no 'completely useless' units.
• All models currently or previously available are represented by the rules
• The desired power level of all codices is somewhere in the middle. Chaos and Tyranids will get buffs. Eldar will get nerfs.

Rules
• Each proposed rule must be presented to fix a perceived problem. Please state what this problem is when proposing a rule. That way people can see why you think a solution is necessary and can challenge your assumptions.
• New units may be created where models exist, or where models can be easily converted from bits in existing kits. Note this must NOT include 3rd party parts. Only GW parts allowed.
• Special characters/unique units are to be the last thing we look at. Fixing regular units is higher priority. Pretend unique models don't exist for now. That way we can prevent their pile of special rules from derailing the conversation.
• Formations and detachments may be created where fluff appropriate. Any detachment which has a power bonus greater than 'troops have objective secured' must have a points cost. Formations always have a points cost. Both should be fairly rare, not dozens per army.
• All solutions are PROPOSALS and are free to be challenged
• When challenging a solution, please do so by proposing a counter solution. Constructive criticism is the key to making progress in a topic like this.
• When challenging a problem, please do so by explaining clearly why you think it is not a problem.
• Suggestions for changing rules in the main rulebook don't belong in this thread.
• Wording clarification/fixing ambiguous rules is highly recommended.
• All problems, solutions, arguments and counter arguments must follow the assumptions below

Assumptions
• We start from the basis of the most recent codex for each army
• All existing codex/dataslate/supplement/white dwarf formations and detachments are scrapped. There are just too many of them which give crazy bonuses for no cost. Let's start fresh.
• Unbound is scrapped
• All units that only exist in supplements are now treated as being part of the relevant codex. All other information in supplements is scrapped.
• The 7th ed 40k 'final draft' FAQ is correct

To get the ball rolling, I'll start with the two books I know best.

Dark Angels
Problem: the 7th edition codex lost a lot of flavour and diversity that 6th had.
Solution: Reintroduce the following wargear with rules per 6th ed codex; Infravisor, Displacer Field, Power Field Generator. Return to having 3 sacred standards rather than a single bland standard.

Problem: The three sacred standards in the old book were a bit hit and miss. The Standard of Devastation was a bit too good, but also situational being used almost always on Ravenwing Command Squads, where it makes no fluff sense. The Standard of Retribution did too little for its cost.
Solution: These standards may only be taken by the company command squad, not Ravenwing or Deathwing command. All continue to give the 12" bubble of reroll for morale and pinning tests.
Standard of Devastation: 75 pts. All bolt weapons (bolter (including each bolter in hurricane bolters), bolt pistol, storm bolter, heavy bolter) gain 1 extra shot if the model remained stationary. For example, a bolter at 11" fires 3 shots. Relentless does not bypass the requirement to remain stationary.
Standard of Retribution: 45 pts. Units with 12" gain Counter-attack. They also gain Fearless while in locked in close combat.
Standard of Fortitude: 65 points. Same as before; 12" Feel No Pain bubble.

Problem: The relic Monster Slayer of Caliban is too expensive for how unreliable it is, 2/3 times being basically a power sword.
Solution: Remove the random table. It is now 30 points, S+1 AP3, Melee. Gains Instant Death on a to-wound roll of 6.

Problem: The only Chapter Master available is Azrael. Other chapters of Unforgiven are not represented. Neither are Dark Angels at any other point in history.
Solution: Allow the Company Master to be upgraded to Chapter Master (W4, A4) for 40 points. Gains Orbital Strike per the Space Marine Codex. All other options remain the same.

Problem: Ravenwing lost tactical flexibility and gained overpowered reroll of jink.
Solution: Replace the Ravenwing Bike Squad unit options with the Ravenwing Attack Squadron (6th ed codex) option where the landspeeder and attack bike could be purchased as part of the same unit but automatically formed a separate unit during deployment. Retain the ability to split 6 bikes into 3 if desired. Remove the Ravenwing re-roll jink rule entirely. Retain the 25 pts/model cost.

Problem: Ravenwing Black Knights cost 40 points, the same as regular Ravenwing bikes given a single plasma gun. Twin linked plasma + better stats + S5 Rending attacks + skilled rider does not equal regular plasma.
Solution: Return Black Knights to their 42 point cost.

Problem: Ravenwing Grenade Launcher is now a 'never take' due to the change in Rad grenades, despite being a free upgrade.
Solution: Restore the 6th edition version of Rad grenades (lowers the target's toughness by 1 until the end of the turn.

Problem: Ravenwing Bike Squads/Attack Squadrons can be 'spammed' by taking the minimum 3 models to get 2 special weapons in the unit. This same issue applies to Space Marines though their solution may vary.
Solution: Ravenwing may only take the 2nd special weapon if the squad contains 6 bikes.

Problem: The Nephilim Jetfighter is supposed to be an air superiority fighter, yet lacks the capability to take down other fliers.
Solution: Blacksword missiles gain Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter.

All marine variants
These two don't just apply to Dark Angels.

Problem: Regular Terminators (storm bolter, power fist) are too expensive for their potential damage output.
Solution: Storm Bolters in all armies are treated as two bolters fired as a single weapon. 2 Shots at 24", 4 at 12". Note that this means they're no longer assault weapons which will affect other models that have them. Grey Knight power armour models may need a 'new' weapon with the existing Storm Bolter Assault 2 stats. Then again, they may not. Someone who plays them will have to comment on this.

Problem: Land Raiders in all of their forms are too expensive. This problem and solution applies to all Space Marine books and Chaos Space Marines.
Solution: All Land Raider variants gain 'Extra Armour' as part of their default wargear. All have their points cost reduced by 40 points. Note that in Zeta this price reduction may not be necessary due to the significant change in how vehicle damage is handled.

Imperial Guard
Problem: Heavy Weapon Teams are too fragile due to instant death from S6 weapons.
Solution: Since the model represents two guardsmen, let's treat it as such. Heavy Weapon Teams are only affected by Instant Death when the weapon causing the damage has the Template or Blast rules.

Problem: There is never any point putting sponson weapons on Leman Russ tanks with ordnance weapons.
Solution: Leman Russ tanks regain 'Lumbering Behemoth' which overrides the 'other weapons must shoot snap shots' rule from ordnance weapons.

Problem: The Griffon was removed but the people have the model
Solution: Restore this unit exactly as it was under 5th edition. Can be taken in squadrons of 1-3 like other artillery

Problem: Heavy bolters are virtually unseen on infantry when autocannons cost the same points
Solution: Heavy bolters reduced to 8 points

Problem: Heavy Weapon Squads are too expensive when compared with regular infantry squads, effectively costing 7.5 points/guardsman instead of the usual 5.
Solution: Heavy Weapon Squads cost 30 points. I considered making it 35 or 40 but the problem would still be true and they are still easier to kill than heavy weapons in infantry squads due to the Combined Squad rule of infantry squads. This also helps to address the price comparison between mortars and the Wyvern.

Problem: The Wyvern is overpowered with 4 shots, twin linked, shred, ignores cover.
Solution: Remove twin linked. 4 shots, 4 barrels. Makes sense.

Problem: All super heavy vehicles are missing
Solution: Incorporate them as per the stats in Escalation. All are Lords of War

Problem: Ogryns and Bullgryns are overpriced
Solution: Ogryns are 30 points/model. 100 points for base unit. Bullgryns are 35 points/model are 115 for the base unit.

Problem: The Taurox serves no apparent purpose. The Chimera outdoes it in most areas.
Solution: The Taurox gains Fast.

Problem: The Taurox Prime is overpriced
Solution: Reduced to 70 points.

Problem: Rough Riders got nerfed in the 6th ed codex for no good reason
Solution: Restore the +2 initiative bonus on hunting lances.

Ideas for Other Codices I'm less familiar with
Tau
Problem: Tau big suits don't make sense as monstrous creatures
Solution: In Zeta 'jump' and 'jet' can be combined with 'walker'. Swap all of them for vehicles of a walker type. Leave Jet in place where it already exists. AV on all sides is = to current T + 6. Hull Points = current wounds.

Eldar
Problem: The avatar can be hurt by pyromancy spells despite being made of molten metal.
Solution: The avatar is now immune to the effects of all spells on the pyromancy discipline

Problem: Eldar scatter bikes, too cheap, too powerful, too plentiful access to heavy weapons
Solution: Personally I'm in favour of returning them to 1 heavy weapon per 3 bikes. That's not too popular in other threads though due to people modelling entire units with them. I'll settle for scatter lasers going up to 15 points/model and shuriken cannons 10/model.

Problem: Wraithknight too powerful/under priced
Solution: Base price increased to 350.

Tyranids
Problem: A bunch of units only exist in supplements
Solution: Treat all of these units as being part of the codex, replacing the existing codex unit where appropriate (zoanthropes...)

Problem: Genestealers are no where near as scarey as their points value suggests.
Solution: Give genestealers Shred. Note that this is the unit gaining the rule not rending claws gaining it.

Problem: It's too easy to spam CADs by taking mucolid spores
Solution: Mucolid spores never count as the mandatory troops choice in a detachment

Problem: Trygons are unreliable and ineffective as a deepstrike method for other units due to potentially arriving after the units you wanted to use the trygon hole.
Solution: Trygons may arrive on turn 1 on a 4+. Note in Zeta this is not required as you can voluntarily delay a unit.

Problem: Tyranids have no invulnerable saves for HQ/Warlord
Solution: Hive Tyrants gain this upgrade option: Warp Field (4+ invulnerable save) 30 points. Yes this is more expensive than an equivalent save on other models, but those other models aren’t also T6!

I like the Eldar fixes. I would add that Scatter lasers on Windriders are easily worth 20ppm. And Eldar are my main army so I am clearly not biased against Eldar.
Alternative solution: Scatter lasers are now only Str5 - limits the ability to hurt light AV and the amount of wounds done to T4+ models

Tyranids:
Problem: Many CC units are not used because they are unable to reliably reach CC
Solution: Hormagaunts, Rippers, Trygons & Mawlocs are now Beasts
Alternate Solution: Create an army wide rule called Tyranid Beasts: All Infantry/MC models with the Tyranid Faction may add 3" to any move, run or assault move made.
^^This solution also helps iconic units like Genestealers and Carnifex that really should not be flat out "Beasts", but could use a slight speed increase.

-

I imagine formations being more restrictive. To give an example of what I mean by 'fluff appropriate' formations, here is what I feel a Dark Angel Demi Company should be.

A battle company is 100 marines plus captain and chaplain, dreadnoughts, transport (mostly rhinos). Bear that in mind.

Dark Angels Demi Company 25 pts
1 Company Master or Chaplain
0-1 Company Veterans or Command Squad
3 Tactical Squads
1 Assault Squad
1 Devastator Squad
0-1 Dreadnought squadrons

Restrictions
The Demi Company must contain a minimum of 51 models.

Special Rules
All models in this formation gain Objective Secured. All models with Grim Resolve fire overwatch at BS 3 rather than the usual BS 2.

I've been perusing the various Ork threads for a while now. I think these changes would help.

Problem: Mob rule kills too many boys.
Solution: Change the d6 hits to 2 hits with random allocation.

Problem: Mob rule was too much of a nerf compared to the previous codex.
Solution: Orks units with this rule add 1 to their leadership score for every 5 wounds remaining in the unit, to a maximum of 10 LD.

Problem: Trucks expect to kill 5 boys on an explodes result, making them a very dubious transport.
Solution: Update Ramshackle to have the explodes result be S2.

Problem: Boys (in particular) and orks in general (the rest) don't hit hard enough in assault once they've lost so many models getting there.
Solution: Every model which currently has Furious Charge loses this rule and instead gains a permanent +1 strength on their profile.

Tyranids

Problem: Flyrants are too cheap for their kill power and walkrants are too expensive.

Solution: Reduce the cost of Hie tyrants by 30 points. Wings now replace a pair of scything talons. Flyrants now can only have 1 pair of tldwblw and must rely on template swarms for their second weapon.

Problem: Instinctive behavior is a shackle that ruins 90% of potential tactics for tyrands.

Solution: IB is no longer a penalty. Remove it entirely or change it to granting a +1 leadership bonus when doing the thing it wants you to be doing. Since most non synapse nids are LD 6 (a statistically negative chance for success) not being in synapse is already a major penalty since any ld test is likely to send them running. But now units like raveners and gargoyles are free to break off from the swarm and go grab objectives without the player loosing control of them entirely.

Feed - +1 Ld while in combat
Lurk - +1 Ld while in terrain
Hunt: - +1 Ld until your next turn so long as the unit successfully wounds in the shooting phase

Problem: Army wide blanket immunity to core mechanics of the game is dumb and nobody should have them. Also Synapse creatures need a little more durability.

Solution: Change Synapse Creature to - This model has a synapse range of 12". Tyranid units with a model at least partially in this range, including the synapse creature, use the unmodified leadership of the nearest synapse creature in place of it's own leadership value for all rules purposes. Further, each unit within synapse range gains FNP 6+ and the Synapse creature itself gains a 5+ Invulnerable save.

Problem: Elite is crowded and other units should be in other slots.

Solution: Toxicrene is moved to FA. Maleceptor is moved to Heavy. Trygon Prime is moved to HQ. Old One Eye is a dumb HQ, make him an upgrade option for a single Carnifex. For that matter make stone crusher an upgrade too. And Malanthrope and upgrade for a venemthrope within a brood.

ELDAR
* I agree with the "1 heavy per 3 bikes" suggestion. Yes, it means some very gnarly lists will have to proxy or remodel a few bikes, but it also makes bikes much more (in my opinion) interesting as a unit and fluffy as a Saim-Hann troop. It brings down their firepower-per-points to be comparable to other options in the book (it puts them roughly on par with vypers and war walkers) and gives you a reason to actually risk getting closer to use your shuriken catapults.

Problem: The vyper is made redundant by its more agile counterparts the war walker and the windrider and by it's scouting, harder-hitting cousin the hornet. There isn't really a great niche for it in the current book, and improving its mobility or firepower in some way could easily make it superior to walkers, hornets, and bikes. Which just moves the problem rather than fixing it.
Solution: Make the vyper a 2 wound, T5 jetbike that cannot be taken as its own unit. For every 6 bikes in a windrider squad, you may include a vyper for X points. You can probably lower its base cost a bit in this scenario. Combined with the above suggestion of making bikes 1 heavy per 3 bikes, the vyper becomes a way to add a little extra oomph to your squad and gives you a reason to field 6 man teams instead of MSU. Which also gives your bike seers a relatively durable unit to hang out with instead of always being attached to mounted bike councils.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyranids

Problem: Flyrants are too cheap for their kill power and walkrants are too expensive.

Solution: Reduce the cost of Hie tyrants by 30 points. Wings now replace a pair of scything talons. Flyrants now can only have 1 pair of tldwblw and must rely on template swarms for their second weapon.

Problem: Instinctive behavior is a shackle that ruins 90% of potential tactics for tyrands.

Solution: IB is no longer a penalty. Remove it entirely or change it to granting a +1 leadership bonus when doing the thing it wants you to be doing. Since most non synapse nids are LD 6 (a statistically negative chance for success) not being in synapse is already a major penalty since any ld test is likely to send them running. But now units like raveners and gargoyles are free to break off from the swarm and go grab objectives without the player loosing control of them entirely.

Feed - +1 Ld while in combat
Lurk - +1 Ld while in terrain
Hunt: - +1 Ld until your next turn so long as the unit successfully wounds in the shooting phase

Problem: Army wide blanket immunity to core mechanics of the game is dumb and nobody should have them. Also Synapse creatures need a little more durability.

Solution: Change Synapse Creature to - This model has a synapse range of 12". Tyranid units with a model at least partially in this range, including the synapse creature, use the unmodified leadership of the nearest synapse creature in place of it's own leadership value for all rules purposes. Further, each unit within synapse range gains FNP 6+ and the Synapse creature itself gains a 5+ Invulnerable save.

Problem: Elite is crowded and other units should be in other slots.

Solution: Toxicrene is moved to FA. Maleceptor is moved to Heavy. Trygon Prime is moved to HQ. Old One Eye is a dumb HQ, make him an upgrade option for a single Carnifex. For that matter make stone crusher an upgrade too. And Malanthrope and upgrade for a venemthrope within a brood.

I like all these suggestions, though I'm iffy on removing Fearless from synapse. I think there's an argument for removing morale tests from the game entirely, but that's a discussion for another thread entirely. As an add-on to this...

Problem: The Trygon prime tunnel doesn't really work. You risk having the trygon show up late or on the same turn as the reinforcements meant to come out of the tunnel, and then you end up with a bunch of bugs walking on from your board edge instead of being useful.
Solution: If you have a Trygon of any stripe, you may opt to hold units that can use the tunnel in reserve until at least one tunnel has been placed.
Alternative: Trygons get a rule similar to drop pod assault that allows them to burrow up on turn 1. This makes them better at alpha striking and guarantees you'll have a tunnel in place when the rest of your reserves start to arrive.

Problem: Without Number doesn't really help much when you have to walk on from your board edge.
Solution: Units that respawn via Without Number gain outflank. There's precedent in the recent cultist formations.

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyranids

Problem: Flyrants are too cheap for their kill power and walkrants are too expensive.

Solution: Reduce the cost of Hie tyrants by 30 points. Wings now replace a pair of scything talons. Flyrants now can only have 1 pair of tldwblw and must rely on template swarms for their second weapon.

Problem: Instinctive behavior is a shackle that ruins 90% of potential tactics for tyrands.

Solution: IB is no longer a penalty. Remove it entirely or change it to granting a +1 leadership bonus when doing the thing it wants you to be doing. Since most non synapse nids are LD 6 (a statistically negative chance for success) not being in synapse is already a major penalty since any ld test is likely to send them running. But now units like raveners and gargoyles are free to break off from the swarm and go grab objectives without the player loosing control of them entirely.

Feed - +1 Ld while in combat
Lurk - +1 Ld while in terrain
Hunt: - +1 Ld until your next turn so long as the unit successfully wounds in the shooting phase

Problem: Army wide blanket immunity to core mechanics of the game is dumb and nobody should have them. Also Synapse creatures need a little more durability.

Solution: Change Synapse Creature to - This model has a synapse range of 12". Tyranid units with a model at least partially in this range, including the synapse creature, use the unmodified leadership of the nearest synapse creature in place of it's own leadership value for all rules purposes. Further, each unit within synapse range gains FNP 6+ and the Synapse creature itself gains a 5+ Invulnerable save.

Problem: Elite is crowded and other units should be in other slots.

Solution: Toxicrene is moved to FA. Maleceptor is moved to Heavy. Trygon Prime is moved to HQ. Old One Eye is a dumb HQ, make him an upgrade option for a single Carnifex. For that matter make stone crusher an upgrade too. And Malanthrope and upgrade for a venemthrope within a brood.

While your idea on the flyrant does work in nerfing it, thematically it makes the flyrant really lackluster, what the flyrant really needs is a bit more variety in weapons so that the "devourer with brain-leech worms" isn't the only option, but they do need a slight nerf. My opinion, on it is that the flyrant is either increased by 10, or make the brain leech worms cost 5 more a piece at least. make it less good to use the brain leech worms then just making the flyrant lose of its arms.

Also i don't think it should just be flat leadership boosts for the varying form of IB.
Feed: +1 WS while in combat
Lurk: Gain stealth while greater than 18" away from any enemy unit
Hunt: Gain +1 attack or +1 strength while in combat

something along those lines.

atomicsharks wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyranids

Problem: Flyrants are too cheap for their kill power and walkrants are too expensive.

Solution: Reduce the cost of Hie tyrants by 30 points. Wings now replace a pair of scything talons. Flyrants now can only have 1 pair of tldwblw and must rely on template swarms for their second weapon.

Problem: Instinctive behavior is a shackle that ruins 90% of potential tactics for tyrands.

Solution: IB is no longer a penalty. Remove it entirely or change it to granting a +1 leadership bonus when doing the thing it wants you to be doing. Since most non synapse nids are LD 6 (a statistically negative chance for success) not being in synapse is already a major penalty since any ld test is likely to send them running. But now units like raveners and gargoyles are free to break off from the swarm and go grab objectives without the player loosing control of them entirely.

Feed - +1 Ld while in combat
Lurk - +1 Ld while in terrain
Hunt: - +1 Ld until your next turn so long as the unit successfully wounds in the shooting phase

Problem: Army wide blanket immunity to core mechanics of the game is dumb and nobody should have them. Also Synapse creatures need a little more durability.

Solution: Change Synapse Creature to - This model has a synapse range of 12". Tyranid units with a model at least partially in this range, including the synapse creature, use the unmodified leadership of the nearest synapse creature in place of it's own leadership value for all rules purposes. Further, each unit within synapse range gains FNP 6+ and the Synapse creature itself gains a 5+ Invulnerable save.

Problem: Elite is crowded and other units should be in other slots.

Solution: Toxicrene is moved to FA. Maleceptor is moved to Heavy. Trygon Prime is moved to HQ. Old One Eye is a dumb HQ, make him an upgrade option for a single Carnifex. For that matter make stone crusher an upgrade too. And Malanthrope and upgrade for a venemthrope within a brood.

While your idea on the flyrant does work in nerfing it, thematically it makes the flyrant really lackluster, what the flyrant really needs is a bit more variety in weapons so that the "devourer with brain-leech worms" isn't the only option, but they do need a slight nerf. My opinion, on it is that the flyrant is either increased by 10, or make the brain leech worms cost 5 more a piece at least. make it less good to use the brain leech worms then just making the flyrant lose of its arms.

Also i don't think it should just be flat leadership boosts for the varying form of IB.
Feed: +1 WS while in combat
Lurk: Gain stealth while greater than 18" away from any enemy unit
Hunt: Gain +1 attack or +1 strength while in combat

something along those lines.

6 tl str 6 shots at BS 4 with a template to supplement is lots of fire power. My proposed change makes something besides electroshock grubs slightly more desirable without hindering the flyrant at all. It's stil a drastically powerful unit, but if you want the full umph of the max dakka you need to make it walk.

By just increasing the price you either reach a point where the price is so high that the option is no longer worth it or you STILL have a flyrant with double devourers. The other guns need to become more viable or devourers themselves need a nerf. I am hesitant to nerf them since they are the only way we reliably deal with most of the other heavy hitters.

Giving out other bonuses besides the minor boost of increasing leadership to a statistically positive chance for success into the much more powerful increases to stat lines or handing out bonuses effects the cost of units. I don't actually think most nid units are that bad. Some need cost adjustments (but making synapse give a 6+ FNP and a 5+ invul save to synapse makes warriors actually worth their points now). Gaunts and gants are good. They just need that 6+ FNP for being in synapse and a 10 stubborn leadership while in synapse. They don't need to get an improved stat line for doing what they are going to be doing anyway. Hormagaunts don't have a choice but to be in melee. Your proposed feed is a +1 WS to them at all times. Nonsense.

 Lance845 wrote:

atomicsharks wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tyranids

Problem: Flyrants are too cheap for their kill power and walkrants are too expensive.

Solution: Reduce the cost of Hie tyrants by 30 points. Wings now replace a pair of scything talons. Flyrants now can only have 1 pair of tldwblw and must rely on template swarms for their second weapon.

Problem: Instinctive behavior is a shackle that ruins 90% of potential tactics for tyrands.

Solution: IB is no longer a penalty. Remove it entirely or change it to granting a +1 leadership bonus when doing the thing it wants you to be doing. Since most non synapse nids are LD 6 (a statistically negative chance for success) not being in synapse is already a major penalty since any ld test is likely to send them running. But now units like raveners and gargoyles are free to break off from the swarm and go grab objectives without the player loosing control of them entirely.

Feed - +1 Ld while in combat
Lurk - +1 Ld while in terrain
Hunt: - +1 Ld until your next turn so long as the unit successfully wounds in the shooting phase

Problem: Army wide blanket immunity to core mechanics of the game is dumb and nobody should have them. Also Synapse creatures need a little more durability.

Solution: Change Synapse Creature to - This model has a synapse range of 12". Tyranid units with a model at least partially in this range, including the synapse creature, use the unmodified leadership of the nearest synapse creature in place of it's own leadership value for all rules purposes. Further, each unit within synapse range gains FNP 6+ and the Synapse creature itself gains a 5+ Invulnerable save.

Problem: Elite is crowded and other units should be in other slots.

Solution: Toxicrene is moved to FA. Maleceptor is moved to Heavy. Trygon Prime is moved to HQ. Old One Eye is a dumb HQ, make him an upgrade option for a single Carnifex. For that matter make stone crusher an upgrade too. And Malanthrope and upgrade for a venemthrope within a brood.

While your idea on the flyrant does work in nerfing it, thematically it makes the flyrant really lackluster, what the flyrant really needs is a bit more variety in weapons so that the "devourer with brain-leech worms" isn't the only option, but they do need a slight nerf. My opinion, on it is that the flyrant is either increased by 10, or make the brain leech worms cost 5 more a piece at least. make it less good to use the brain leech worms then just making the flyrant lose of its arms.

Also i don't think it should just be flat leadership boosts for the varying form of IB.
Feed: +1 WS while in combat
Lurk: Gain stealth while greater than 18" away from any enemy unit
Hunt: Gain +1 attack or +1 strength while in combat

something along those lines.

6 tl str 6 shots at BS 4 with a template to supplement is lots of fire power. My proposed change makes something besides electroshock grubs slightly more desirable without hindering the flyrant at all. It's stil a drastically powerful unit, but if you want the full umph of the max dakka you need to make it walk.

By just increasing the price you either reach a point where the price is so high that the option is no longer worth it or you STILL have a flyrant with double devourers. The other guns need to become more viable or devourers themselves need a nerf. I am hesitant to nerf them since they are the only way we reliably deal with most of the other heavy hitters.

Giving out other bonuses besides the minor boost of increasing leadership to a statistically positive chance for success into the much more powerful increases to stat lines or handing out bonuses effects the cost of units. I don't actually think most nid units are that bad. Some need cost adjustments (but making synapse give a 6+ FNP and a 5+ invul save to synapse makes warriors actually worth their points now). Gaunts and gants are good. They just need that 6+ FNP for being in synapse and a 10 stubborn leadership while in synapse. They don't need to get an improved stat line for doing what they are going to be doing anyway. Hormagaunts don't have a choice but to be in melee. Your proposed feed is a +1 WS to them at all times. Nonsense.

I agree with most of this. Currently, people are spamming as many flyrants as they possibly can in competitive play because they outpace all other 'nid options that severely. Upping the cost by 10 or 20 points here or there maybe keeps people from taking one additional flyrant, and then only because the points don't work out for the last one any more. So at that point you still have flyrant spam, but you've also nerfed tyranids even more. Which doesn't help balance out the codex or improve list diversity.

Making flying tyrants less shooty when winged makes things like walking venomthrope heavy lists or drop spores worth looking at. It helps the internal balance, albeit at the cost of nerfing the MVP unit in a struggling codex. Now that said, I think there are a lot of ways that the other units and weapons could stand to be buffed to make them more useful. TL brainleech devourers are just far and away the best weapon available to 'nids.

The proposed adjustments to instinctive behavior don't really do it for me. Getting bonuses for not being in synapse is counter-intuitive and not really inkeeping with the spirit of the rule. IB is meant to be the flip-side of synapse. When the synapse net goes down, the little bugs become less organized and fall back on their basic instincts. Which seems like it should make them less effective. Not more effective. Honestly, I'd be fine with getting rid of IB all together. 'Nid leadership is already bad, and 'nids themselves are genrally squishy. Force a morale test on a gaunt squad outside of synapse, and you'll start to see a fluffy loss of unit coherency quickly enough. The +1 leadership for following certain behaviors would be fine too. I just don't want IB to be complicated or to counter-intuitively be a bonus for not maintaining synapse.

Now all that said, I'm not a huge fan of the 6+ FNP or stubborn for being in synapse mechanic. You lose the "drones mindlessly throwing themselves into the blender" feeling when you can no longer tarpit knights with them, plus you take away 'nids number 1 (lackluster) answer to things like knights. 6+ invuls and FNP are nice when they work, but as a sisters and dark eldar player, they don't work often enough to make much difference. Keeping Fearless on synapse'd units and having synapse grant Eternal Warrior again would make medium-sized bugs more viable who in turn would make gaunts more viable. Throw on a 5+ invul of FNP for big bugs (who generally don't benefit from EW except against things like force), and you've made a big chunk of the codex a lot more viable.

Something I've pitched in other threads is to give 'nids something similar to canticles where the hive mind issues a broad command to the units under its control. So each turn, you could make a leadership test with the highest Ld synapse creature on the table to change your "synaptic impulse." Synaptic impulses would affect creatures in synapse range and might include things like...

STRIVE: Affected models gain FNP. Models that already have FNP improve its effects by 1.
HUNT: Add 3" to the movement of all affected models including run and charge rolls. Helps your synapse keep up with hormagaunts and helps your melee bugs actually make it into melee. Maybe throw on "affected units are considered to be equipped with assault grenades" to offset our melee-heavy army's severe lack of grenades?
KILL: Some sort of minor bonus to offense. Maybe rerolling to-hit rolls of 1? Maybe put the grenade thing here?

Zustiur wrote:
...Problem: Eldar scatter bikes, too cheap, too powerful, too plentiful access to heavy weapons
Solution: Personally I'm in favour of returning them to 1 heavy weapon per 3 bikes. That's not too popular in other threads though due to people modelling entire units with them. I'll settle for scatter lasers going up to 15 points/model and shuriken cannons 10/model...

I'm sorry, but the "I've-modeled-an-entire-unit-with-scatter-lasers!" argument is a pretty dumb one. Pumping the cost 5-10pts without the one-per-three fix doesn't actually correct the balance problem of the unit, and there is no way demanding Eldar players that didn't have the foresight to magnetize their bikes in the first place break out the exacto knives is that unreasonable of a burden. Taking a unit where you can't actually see the gun without laying your cheek down on the table in the first place and making the joint between the gun and the hull a bit messier is a small price to pay for making them function in some sort of balanced fashion. Also the 'pump-cost-of-scatterbikes' crowd are running off a set of wildly moronic arguments about the relative price of guns in a vacuum while ignoring the fact that scatterbikes are still dumb at 32-37pts/model with no squad tax.

A couple of other problems with the Eldar Codex:

Problem: Warlocks/Farseers are useless in melee.
Solution: Give Witchblades/Singing Spears some kind of AP value. Possibly swap Fleshbane for a weaker Poisoned value, or for the ability to burn Warp Charge for a Strength buff (as per Tylos Rubio) to compensate. On top of that one Attack on profile for Seers who have supposedly walked the Path of the Warrior isn't cutting it, the entire Path of the Seer (Warlocks, Farseers, Spiritseers) really needs to come up to two Attacks.

Problem: The Seer Council is badly-designed.
Solution: On top of the melee buffs above the one-Warp-Charge-per-model thing needs to get dropped and replaced with the plain Brotherhood of Psykers rule, and hopefully with that change the 35pts/model pricetag carried over from the squad leaders can get dropped down closer to 20pts/model. With the ability to do actual damage in melee and with a more sane pricetag hopefully the Seer Council will become somewhat useful.

Problem: Distortion = Destroyer.
Solution: Distortion != Destroyer. Current D-Scythe weapons (Wraithguard flamers, the artillery platform's D-cannon, the Hemlock's guns) become S4/AP1 Armourbane/Fleshbane, Wraithguard Wraithcannons become S10/AP1 Armourbane/Fleshbane. Remove the possibility of massive criticals, make them less of an automatic instant death sentence against vehicles, but preserve some of the destructiveness. The Wraithlord's distortion guns can remain D-strength by virtue of coming on a superheavy platform, but only if it gets pumped up closer to 400pts and the option to take as many as you like in the meta-formation goes away.

And a few problems elsewhere:

Core rulebook:
Problem: Superheavy-spam.
Solution: 30k superheavy rules. 25% of your points. And/or cap them at one per full 1,500pts.

Harlequins:
Problem: Grotesquely overpriced Troupes.
Solution: Drop to 13pts/model (compare the current 15pts/model Trouper to a 13pts/model Howling Banshee and tell me which you'd rather have). The Troupe Master becomes an optional 10pt upgrade (as per Exarchs, to which he as an upgrade is identical) rather than a mandatory 20pt upgrade.

Problem: Inadequate bike-related coolness.
Solution: Skyweaver mount (providing +1 T, +1 W, a 4+ armour save, a shuriken cannon, and mirage launchers) as a 50pt upgrade to Shadowseers. Skyweaver-mounted Troupe Masters.

Deathwatch:
Problem: Lack of common sense in Terminator armament.
Solution: Either write common-sense profiles for all the special ammo types in storm bolters (take the normal bolters and replace 'Rapid Fire' with 'Assault 2') or swap the storm bolters for the twin-linked boltguns that were running around in the 31st Milennium. No extra charge, they're already 40pt tactical Terminators.

Space Marines:
Problem: Salamanders can't take heavy flamers.
Solution: Remove the 'Sternguard squads only' footnote from the heavy flamer in the heavy weapons list. We know they don't ship models for it in the Tactical box. They don't ship lascannons in the Tactical box either. Trust the players to have a modicum of common sense, please.

General Space Marine (crosses multiple books):
Problem: Melee weapon pricing.
Solution: Take the Vanguard Veterans' upgrade weapon list and stick it in the armoury section with a footnote 'prices for single-wound characters'.

Problem: Land Raiders are the most vulnerable thing in the book to randomly throwing a track on a bit of dirt, because they didn't make a dozer blade model for it.
Solution: Land Raiders of all sorts in all Codexes gain Move Through Cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zustiur wrote:
...Problem: Regular Terminators (storm bolter, power fist) are too expensive for their potential damage output.
Solution: Storm Bolters in all armies are treated as two bolters fired as a single weapon. 2 Shots at 24", 4 at 12". Note that this means they're no longer assault weapons which will affect other models that have them. Grey Knight power armour models may need a 'new' weapon with the existing Storm Bolter Assault 2 stats. Then again, they may not. Someone who plays them will have to comment on this...

The Grey Knights need a massive overhaul for many, many other reasons too. I will sit down with the homemade book I'm working on and come up with a summary tomorrow.

it seems to be like the best way to solve the scatterbike problem without requiring model alterations is to make a "new" jetbike unit in the fast attack slot that allows taking all heavy weapons, then make the windriders 3-to-1. Add further differences (my personal favorite is giving Wind riders 4+ armor save, so they're more like guardians) and favor to taste.

Orks
Problem: Mob Rule is straight up horrible. It is frustrating, wastes time with random rolls, can kill your own army, and you may not even get the benefit if you roll a poorly.
Solution: An Ork unit may replace their leadership value with the number of wounds the unit has. If the number adds up to 11 or more, the unit has Fearless. This fixes the problem people had with the fifth edition version that it didn't benefit small units Alternative, models + the amount of boss poles the unit has, so that you have a reason to have more than one boss poles (i'm looking at you, Flash Gitz). Alternatively alternatively, get rid of Mob Rule all together and Boss Poles allow to reroll any leadership test.

Problem: Waaaagh! isn't very useful most of them time and you have to take a warboss as the warlord (so if you want a big mek or painboy as your warlord you lose the iconic ork special rule!)
Solution: All Ork armies have one Waaagh!. A Waaaagh! is called at the start of the assault phase, before any assaults are called. Before assautls are declared, each ork unit can pick one of the following effects:
Get Stuck In, Boyz!: This unit can make a charge actions this turn, even if they could not otherwise (e.g. running, outflanking, deep striking)
Moar Dakka!: This unit may fire on the other unit as if the ork is making an Overwatch action. This includes Wall of Flame with template weapons
Chop em good! If this unit successfully charges, double its initiative
You get an additional effect depending on who you pick as your warlord.
A Big Mek gets:
Push da button!: Any unit with a mek or big mek in it can fire in the assault phase as normal, even if they didn't declare a charge
A Painboss gets:
Dead 'Ard!: This unit gets Feel No Pain for this assault phase
(This also solves the problem of feeling like you need more than one painboy in every list)
Warboss get:
Stomp 'em flat!: This unit adds +1 to its strength
Special characters would probably get their own versions too

Anything that would allow orks to Waaagh! every turn instead gives them an additional Waaagh!

Problem: Ramshackle is boring, don't help often enough for it to be there, and is it weird that trukks are the only vehicle that gets it even though every other ork vehicle is described as "ramshackle"?
Solution:
Give all units Ramshackle (including walkers!)
Ramshackle: Whenever a vehicle with Ramshackle takes a penetrating hit, roll on the following chart instead of the normal vehicle damage chart;
1: I liked dat bit...: nothing of importance is lost. treat penetrating hit as a glancing hit
2: Ssss! There goes that tire. Vehicle fires snap shots.
3: Thunk!: an immediate stop causes bits and boyz to be thrown everywhere. Unit must immediately disembark if application able. Vehicle cannot move or pivot
4: DakkaDakkaKrack!: Weapon keeps firing, even as it falls off. Nearest unit (baring vehicle) takes hit from one determined weapon. Weapon is then destroyed. If no weapons, count as "I liked dat bit..."
5: Kareen!: The vehicle is forced to stop, but no one told it that. Move 3d6 inches in a random direction determined by a scatter die. A Hit allows the owning player to chose the direction. vehicles tank shock/ ram if they hit something. Walkers assault if they hit an enemy unit. vehicle is then immobilized
6: Krrrunch!: Something gives. The vehicle is wrecked. The area 1d6 inches around the vehicle becomes difficult terrain
7: Kaboom!: A gas tank explodes, only shrapinal and stunned orks left. All passengers in the vehicle and everyone within 1d6 inches take a str 3 hit. the vehicle is destroyed

Wyldhunt wrote:

Now all that said, I'm not a huge fan of the 6+ FNP or stubborn for being in synapse mechanic. You lose the "drones mindlessly throwing themselves into the blender" feeling when you can no longer tarpit knights with them, plus you take away 'nids number 1 (lackluster) answer to things like knights. 6+ invuls and FNP are nice when they work, but as a sisters and dark eldar player, they don't work often enough to make much difference. Keeping Fearless on synapse'd units and having synapse grant Eternal Warrior again would make medium-sized bugs more viable who in turn would make gaunts more viable. Throw on a 5+ invul of FNP for big bugs (who generally don't benefit from EW except against things like force), and you've made a big chunk of the codex a lot more viable.

a 6+ FNP IS really minor. That is kind of the point. The bugs stay squishy but now, because the hive mind is driving them on, they have a chance for their tee shirt save to actually happen. AP matters less against the nids because they have a chance to just shrug it off.

The problem with fearless is not just that it's army wide immunity to moral. It's again that the tyranids core rules force them into specific tactics. The hive mind is supposed to be both smart and adaptable. Yes, they WILL throw hordes of things into a meat grinder (and a 10 stubborn ld almost guarantees that will still be the case). But the hive mind will also retreat, lay ambushes, go to ground. Nobody expects the hive mind to use tactics which is generally everyones downfall when they realize the intelligence behind the nids is far more cunning then they give it credit for far too late. Fearless strips you of these options. Nids CAN'T go to ground. They cannot retreat if it would be more advantageous to do so. In order for a Nid player to actually have options open up for them IB and Fearless need to go.

Something I've pitched in other threads is to give 'nids something similar to canticles where the hive mind issues a broad command to the units under its control. So each turn, you could make a leadership test with the highest Ld synapse creature on the table to change your "synaptic impulse." Synaptic impulses would affect creatures in synapse range and might include things like...

STRIVE: Affected models gain FNP. Models that already have FNP improve its effects by 1.
HUNT: Add 3" to the movement of all affected models including run and charge rolls. Helps your synapse keep up with hormagaunts and helps your melee bugs actually make it into melee. Maybe throw on "affected units are considered to be equipped with assault grenades" to offset our melee-heavy army's severe lack of grenades?
KILL: Some sort of minor bonus to offense. Maybe rerolling to-hit rolls of 1? Maybe put the grenade thing here?

Nids are unique and the proposed synapse and IB create an interesting series of core mechanics that lay the ground work for a unique play style with more options. I don't think they need to steal mechanics and flavor from other armies. They just need their rules to stop shackling them into a single tactic of moving everything as one giant blob and start supporting a variety of choices instead.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
it seems to be like the best way to solve the scatterbike problem without requiring model alterations is to make a "new" jetbike unit in the fast attack slot that allows taking all heavy weapons, then make the windriders 3-to-1. Add further differences (my personal favorite is giving Wind riders 4+ armor save, so they're more like guardians) and favor to taste.

That's true. And making the tentatively-titled Shrieker Jetbike Squad compete for slots with Warp Spiders isn't the worst idea in the world.

Addendum:
Problem: Eldar jetbikes have a confusingly wide range of capabilities and effects despite being quite similar in art and fluff depictions.
Solution: Craftworld, Corsair, and Reaver jetbikes become 4+ armour. Craftworld and Corsair jetbikes gain Skilled Rider.

There's so much i'd like to change about the orks that i won't bother with 8-th at the gates.

Problem: Shadow in the Warp is useless

Solution: Change shadow in the warp to - Any non Tyranid model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model suffers a --2 penalty to Ld. Any non Tyranid model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model that attempts to manifest a psychic power harnesses warp charges on a 5+ instead of 4+.


Reason: 1) tieing SitW range to synapse means things like the norn crown or the dominion power will boost SitW as well. 2) The leadership penalty is reduced from 3 to 2 but now applies to all. This better represents the effects of the shadow according to the fluff. 3) Now effecting the roll for warp charges it effects the ability for psykers to manifest powers again.

 Lance845 wrote:
Problem: Shadow in the Warp is useless

Solution: Change shadow in the warp to - Any non Tyranid model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model suffers a --2 penalty to Ld. Any non Tyranid model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model that attempts to manifest a psychic power suffers a -1 penalty to harnessing warpcharge

Reason: 1) tieing SitW range to synapse means things like the norn crown or the dominion power will boost SitW as well. 2) The leadership penalty is reduced from 3 to 2 but now applies to all. This better represents the effects of the shadow according to the fluff. 3) Now effecting the roll for warp charges it effects the ability for psykers to manifest powers again.

I'd suggest chaning it to that so it can interact with other effects that change the number needed to harness warp charge (Librarius conclave/Seer council etc.)

Problem:
Inquisitors are able to provide buffs and special rules across the board, and can be spammed infinitely for free Warlord Traits, cheap Psychic powers, and other buffs.

Solution:
Only one Inquisitorial Representative or Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband may be taken per army.

(This should probably also apply to Astra Telepathica.)

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Orks

I liked your suggestions a lot, especially vehicle pen hits table, had a good laugh at it.

From myself I'd add that orks have horrible I (inb4 melee race I2 memes), so what if unit could try and pass LD check when charging - if they pass it they get to strike at I4. Would greatly synergise with "old-new" Mob rule.

 Lance845 wrote:
Problem: Shadow in the Warp is useless

Solution: Change shadow in the warp to - Any non Tyranid model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model suffers a --2 penalty to Ld. Any non Tyranid model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model that attempts to manifest a psychic power harnesses warp charges on a 5+ instead of 4+.


Reason: 1) tieing SitW range to synapse means things like the norn crown or the dominion power will boost SitW as well. 2) The leadership penalty is reduced from 3 to 2 but now applies to all. This better represents the effects of the shadow according to the fluff. 3) Now effecting the roll for warp charges it effects the ability for psykers to manifest powers again.

That sounds appropriate. I just had an idea and wonder about this as an alternative...
Solution: Any non Tyranid psyker model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model generates no warp charges.

I'm sorry, did you just proclaim that the old Banner Of Devastation was a bit too good?

 JawRippa wrote:
-Snip-

Thanks dude

Problem: Nobz basically cost 3 boyz for the capability of 2, expect they die easier. They offer nothing other units don't also have and they make me sad in general
Solution: 16pts (so same as sarge nobz, which makes no sense why they cost more), the entire squad becomes Infantry (Character). Any model may buy an additional Slugga or choppa for 1 point (which may be replaced with an additional option from the melee/ranged weapon list). Any nob may buy a irongob for 2 pts, increasing their LD by 1 (Nobz from other squads would also get access to this. Power Klaws cost 15pts in a Nob Squad, and they gain access to Ork Know-wots & Runt and Squigs. Really, they (and the warboss) should have access to ALL weapons and equipment that isn't mek stuff.

I don't like making 'eavy armor standard because I prefer it being an option. Beyond that, I admit to glancing at Wolfen with some serious envy. Green with it, even. Gotta make up for those 4 extra points somehow. But I couldn't come up with anything, the only idea I got from reading the fluff is a leadership bufff bubble... but that's redundant with Mob Rule. IDK. Maybe they can use two effects from my version of Waaagh! when a Waaagh! is called.

Problem: Burnaboyz have fluff about them being able to cut through tank armor when using the cutting beam. This is not supported in mechanics at all, and power swords are wasted on Init 2, str 3 guys.
Solution: Burnas count as power axes when used in melee. This also means The other problem with burnaboyz (can't hit farther than the template) is a rulebook thing and that's a different discussion all together.

Problem: Kommandos are an infiltrating assault. Which means they get to sit on their thumbs for a turn before they can do anything, assuming they aren't shot off the table.
Solution: Part of the solution would be allowing units to assault out of infiltrate/outflank again, but lets assume that doesn't happen. Kommandos models may switch their Slugga for a Shoota. They gain an additional special weapon choice at each 5 models. Any model may buy a tankbusta bomb at 5pts each. The nob gains access to the Ranged Weapon List. Kommandos get the new special rule: Never Expected

Never Expected: The very concept of orks sneaking and hiding about is so alien to others that they refuse to believe Kommandos exist. Until one is jabbing a choppa in their back. When a kommando unit is first deployed onto the table, they cannot be targeted by any ranged weapons, assault, or psykic abilities on that turn unless the kommandos run, shoot, or assault that turn.

Zustiur wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Problem: Shadow in the Warp is useless

Solution: Change shadow in the warp to - Any non Tyranid model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model suffers a --2 penalty to Ld. Any non Tyranid model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model that attempts to manifest a psychic power harnesses warp charges on a 5+ instead of 4+.


Reason: 1) tieing SitW range to synapse means things like the norn crown or the dominion power will boost SitW as well. 2) The leadership penalty is reduced from 3 to 2 but now applies to all. This better represents the effects of the shadow according to the fluff. 3) Now effecting the roll for warp charges it effects the ability for psykers to manifest powers again.

That sounds appropriate. I just had an idea and wonder about this as an alternative...
Solution: Any non Tyranid psyker model within the synapse range of any Tyranid model generates no warp charges.

That is a solid block that closes down the other armies options. I would rather leave everyones options on the table. Reducing the chance that each die succeeds means they have to roll more to reliably cast and ups the chance for perils. That makes each cast a bigger risk vs reward but not an unreasonable one. Removing all their dice means they don't get to cast at all. That's not an interesting choice and just isn't any fun.

I'm playing orks. Things needed to be fixed:
-Eldar
-Psy deathstars
-Stupid undercosted MC/GMC
-Eldar

The one thing I'm getting from this is that Tyranids don't need a patch, they need a complete re-write.