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Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

Having recently (admitted) been introduced to this game, but being a HUGE nerd for historical navy/military I thought I would share my thoughts on how each navy seems to operate.

First off, turn four vs turn six factions ie when they do a majority of their scoring and when they "win" matches:
Turn Four factions: UCM and Scourge
Funny enough the two factions that hate each other share similar tactics.
1. Rush dropsites and deploy as much as possible turns 1-4.
2. Sit over dropsites with an insane amount of limited range firepower. (Each does this differently but seem to share this idea.)

Turn Six factions: PHR and Shaltari
These two differ in ship styles the most but are playing the long game extensively by:
1. Denying the damage output of other by some defensive means in order to....
2. Lay down long range firepower to clear out dropsites for late game scoring

General tactics:
UCM
Holy cow can you say firepower? What these guys lack in scanning they make up for in going "weapons free" lol. Combine that with a pretty good/cheap dropship and this navy screams utility. What I have seen so far is people worried way too much about spikes. Burn in at max thrust, take drop sites, and active scan with your big ships to get the most out of your firepower. I see (in person and online) too many people ignoring the active scan order with a faction that A. has a ship specifically for that and B. has the worst scan range.
Frigates are fun but their dropship can do the same thing and drop boots on the ground.
Where as scourge....

Scorge:
ZERG. EMBRACE THE PLANET. The frigates here are fantastic, the heavy stuff is nasty in low atmosphere, and everything is decent in all roles just not great on one specific thing. Seriously folks, you should be chuck full of pathfinder groups imo abd only bring heavy stuff in bigger games. The bigger stuff seems to be there to combat heavy and supers not drop/light/medium so plan accordingly. Again get on drop sites asap.

PHR
I was originally going to play this faction because BROADSIDES. But supply and demand is a bitch. I read/see/hear way too many people trying to wedge this navy into roles it is terrible at. Going up the middle when you have the second highest scan, side arc and front narrow shooting, and really slow ships....Bad idea in any century.
They have LAUNCH frigates and the heaviest dropships, this hints at their fighting style as well.
Drown the enemies in bombers/torps at long range. Control the edges of the board to deny flanking. Scan with larger ships and keep firing at range then make a late push with your heavier dropships. WAAAY too many battle reports and discussions trying to use both sides of the ship "up the middle" and people are already frustrated with this navy. The point is to be infuriatingly nagging at range not slam into other fleets.

Shaltari:
SPEED AND RANGE. I think this navy is easier for people because you can use these two things to fix your mistakes. I think too many people are depending on this and it will hurt them long term as others get better at the game. Particle big ships combined with flanking frigates seems to be the way to go here. (Plus a ton of gates) Be wary of motherships being focused fired and use that target on their back as an advantage. (YOU KNOW what people are going after first)

I hope to keep updating this as I get more games in, this game is really fun! (Hope this helps and spurns a good discussion not just "NUH UHHH" internet fighting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/08 17:23:06


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think with PHR people see 3+ everywhere with extra hull and expect them to be space marines. This game ships will go down fast if fire is concentrated on them. You don't have to hold critical locations the entire game so there is a time and a place for the rush up the middle and a lot of their ships should be using the fact that they have good broadsides to get there shots in when need be. The other thing to say is the caliber rule is more important than people realize.

The result is a lot of people are just plain using their ships wrong and are failing to understand the advantage they have with PHR and saying a bunch of units are just plain worthless.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




nedTCM wrote:
I think with PHR people see 3+ everywhere with extra hull and expect them to be space marines. This game ships will go down fast if fire is concentrated on them. You don't have to hold critical locations the entire game so there is a time and a place for the rush up the middle and a lot of their ships should be using the fact that they have good broadsides to get there shots in when need be. The other thing to say is the caliber rule is more important than people realize.

The result is a lot of people are just plain using their ships wrong and are failing to understand the advantage they have with PHR and saying a bunch of units are just plain worthless.


Couldn't agree more. I think its because the PHR in DZC are the 'trudge up the middle and take a pounding' faction, people expect them to do the same here. I've mentioned in the other thread that actually PHR are the 'positioning is key' faction in Dropfleet, and if you get that right you are onto a winner.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 sfshilo wrote:
Having recently (admitted) been introduced to this game, but being a HUGE nerd for historical navy/military I thought I would share my thoughts on how each navy seems to operate.

PHR
I was originally going to play this faction because BROADSIDES. But supply and demand is a bitch. I read/see/hear way too many people trying to wedge this navy into roles it is terrible at. Going up the middle when you have the second highest scan, side arc and front narrow shooting, and really slow ships....Bad idea in any century.
They have LAUNCH frigates and the heaviest dropships, this hints at their fighting style as well.
Drown the enemies in bombers/torps at long range. Control the edges of the board to deny flanking. Scan with larger ships and keep firing at range then make a late push with your heavier dropships. WAAAY too many battle reports and discussions trying to use both sides of the ship "up the middle" and people are already frustrated with this navy. The point is to be infuriatingly nagging at range not slam into other fleets.

Shaltari:
SPEED AND RANGE. I think this navy is easier for people because you can use these two things to fix your mistakes. I think too many people are depending on this and it will hurt them long term as others get better at the game. Particle big ships combined with flanking frigates seems to be the way to go here. (Plus a ton of gates) Be wary of motherships being focused fired and use that target on their back as an advantage. (YOU KNOW what people are going after first)

I hope to keep updating this as I get more games in, this game is really fun! (Hope this helps and spurns a good discussion not just "NUH UHHH" internet fighting.


So a few things after playing many games as each.

PHR, are of the 4, the worst. They have good stuff as you mentioned. Bombers and troopships. but like you said, there are tons of threads here, facebook, hawkforums with supporting math that the broadsides are total crapo. Dave also said in two vids posted PHR is supposed to run up the middle, guns blazing. I imagine at some point they will get a fix. They can be played, and people can win if you take the least amount of broadsides as possible. This is very counter active to the whole point of PHR. Until they are fixed, they will remain in my foam carry case, sealed away.

Also Torps for any race are horrible. Never worth taking and no one should take them. Takes 2 turns to hit, range is crap, You can get armor saves vs it, it can miss, and all ships using them are vastly overcoasted. For PHR, you can take a Minos over 2 Achilles as its cheaper, but you shouldn't take a minos in the first place or Achilles. Oh, and you can loose them on a 3+ in debris fields and they are removed. Total junk

Shaltari. Not sure your experience with them, but people depending on the range is the point. Its not going to hurt them in the long run. 12' is huge for close action, especially the beam weapons. The only particle ship that should ever be taken is the Diamond. All other ones are vastly over coasted for not that great damage output. They are a great bomber faction also. The bombers are not as good as Scourge, but just as fast. If lucky turn 1 you can send bombers at the opponent. I also don't see them as a turn 6 win faction. They are very glass cannon, so getting troops all over the board ASAP is key for them. Longer the battle, the weaker they are. Strongest turn for them is 2-3.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 14:47:20


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




For PHR I think it is just too early to tell. The games have been very bloody, but from what I have seen a lot of people going weapons free right away after a charge, watching a ship blow up, and thinking that is how things are supposed to go every time. Even a moscow is not going to kill another 3+ armored ship in one volley. When PHR people are looking at the broadsides as a we have to go WF or we are wasting our ships. To ships perpendicular, the orion will score around 4 hits with its broad side to the rios 3 (though some of the Rios shots crit easier, but it has to WF). This is offset by the Orions enhanced durability. The PHRs guns aren't that far off in most cases from the UCM.

As I was saying before ships go down due to concentrated fire so when you charge in and WF you make a target out of yourself. A PHR ship can instead move into contested terrority and let lose a broad side and only go WF when needed. PHR might still need a buff, but once people start understanding the mechnics more I think the gap will shrink a bit. .

With Shaltari particle weapons, you are looking at it wrong. Yes their total damage output is lower but it will scale better against heavy targets, targets in other orbital layers, or behind cover. You can use them to takeoff hull from PHR frigates or ships hiding in atmosphere. There are also reinforced armor save ships coming as well. It isn't like a burnthrough laser where you can just lean heavily on them, but they have a their place and are a useful, but not specialized weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/09 20:17:37


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




str00dles1 wrote:


So a few things after playing many games as each.

PHR, are of the 4, the worst. They have good stuff as you mentioned. Bombers and troopships. but like you said, there are tons of threads here, facebook, hawkforums with supporting math that the broadsides are total crapo. Dave also said in two vids posted PHR is supposed to run up the middle, guns blazing. I imagine at some point they will get a fix. They can be played, and people can win if you take the least amount of broadsides as possible. This is very counter active to the whole point of PHR. Until they are fixed, they will remain in my foam carry case, sealed away.


I've actually seen the opposite, with most people saying that the PHR broadsides work very well - guess it depends on what forum/facebook page you look at.

In fact in my own group we originally played with medium caliber broadsides having the caliber (M) rule and we ended up taking it out because we found the PHR were too powerful! Guess it's each to his own on that score but I'm just not seeing the problem, and most of the charts I've seen put the Orion as one of the top for damage output, both with weapons free and without, certainly not at the bottom.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




nedTCM wrote:For PHR I think it is just too early to tell. The games have been very bloody, but from what I have seen a lot of people going weapons free right away after a charge, watching a ship blow up, and thinking that is how things are supposed to go every time. Even a moscow is not going to kill another 3+ armored ship in one volley. When PHR people are looking at the broadsides as a we have to go WF or we are wasting our ships. To ships perpendicular, the orion will score around 4 hits with its broad side to the rios 3 (though some of the Rios shots crit easier, but it has to WF). This is offset by the Orions enhanced durability. The PHRs guns aren't that far off in most cases from the UCM.

As I was saying before ships go down due to concentrated fire so when you charge in and WF you make a target out of yourself. A PHR ship can instead move into contested terrority and let lose a broad side and only go WF when needed. PHR might still need a buff, but once people start understanding the mechnics more I think the gap will shrink a bit. .

With Shaltari particle weapons, you are looking at it wrong. Yes their total damage output is lower but it will scale better against heavy targets, targets in other orbital layers, or behind cover. You can use them to takeoff hull from PHR frigates or ships hiding in atmosphere. There are also reinforced armor save ships coming as well. It isn't like a burnthrough laser where you can just lean heavily on them, but they have a their place and are a useful, but not specialized weapon.


Its not to early though. Its all been mathed out, played by many people, and shown on hawk forums and the main dropfleet fb group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1194688467223904/

I have over 3k points of fully painted PHR with many games. Look at the numbers, and also figure in how the game plays. Its turn 4+ for a PHR ship to weapons free and get the most bang for their bucks, and that's if the opponent let them get there. If its not weapons free, its less then any other of the factions ships that match it. Broadsides are crap right now. PHR can still be good, but your focused on BTL and launch assets with troop ships. That's the 3 best things they have going for them.

Not looking at particle wrong either. Besides the Diamond, it is bad, plain and simple. Disintegrator bank beats it out every time except diamond. Its to expensive. and in different layers it still suffers -1 to hit. And you still get the penalty for debris fields so not sure why you suggest using them for those? There is never a reason ever to take a Jade over a Topaz.

Stranger83 wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:


So a few things after playing many games as each.

PHR, are of the 4, the worst. They have good stuff as you mentioned. Bombers and troopships. but like you said, there are tons of threads here, facebook, hawkforums with supporting math that the broadsides are total crapo. Dave also said in two vids posted PHR is supposed to run up the middle, guns blazing. I imagine at some point they will get a fix. They can be played, and people can win if you take the least amount of broadsides as possible. This is very counter active to the whole point of PHR. Until they are fixed, they will remain in my foam carry case, sealed away.


I've actually seen the opposite, with most people saying that the PHR broadsides work very well - guess it depends on what forum/facebook page you look at.

In fact in my own group we originally played with medium caliber broadsides having the caliber (M) rule and we ended up taking it out because we found the PHR were too powerful! Guess it's each to his own on that score but I'm just not seeing the problem, and most of the charts I've seen put the Orion as one of the top for damage output, both with weapons free and without, certainly not at the bottom.


The FB page is the main Dropfleet page https://www.facebook.com/groups/1194688467223904/ and the forum is hawks own forum. http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/ The two biggest sources of data in stats/game reports. So I'm not sure where you see they work very well. For PHR to even be competive, you take mass troopships, launch assets and forward guns as the theme of broadsides is not good at all in game.

Check out DF list even on proof of whats being picked because its good to whats not. Top three for Med and Heavy

Medium - Ganymede (troopship) Ikarus (Launch assets) Theseus (one of the very few actual good broadside ships because its so dirt cheap)
Heavy Bellerophon (launch and forward gun) Hector (Front BTL) Scipio (launch)

Theme is front guns and launch as its the only thing going for PHR. The illusion people see is the 3+ armor "being amazing" when people have played with 2+ armor for them and they died all the same with little difference. The game is all about crits.


   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




str00dles1 wrote:
nedTCM wrote:For PHR I think it is just too early to tell. The games have been very bloody, but from what I have seen a lot of people going weapons free right away after a charge, watching a ship blow up, and thinking that is how things are supposed to go every time. Even a moscow is not going to kill another 3+ armored ship in one volley. When PHR people are looking at the broadsides as a we have to go WF or we are wasting our ships. To ships perpendicular, the orion will score around 4 hits with its broad side to the rios 3 (though some of the Rios shots crit easier, but it has to WF). This is offset by the Orions enhanced durability. The PHRs guns aren't that far off in most cases from the UCM.

As I was saying before ships go down due to concentrated fire so when you charge in and WF you make a target out of yourself. A PHR ship can instead move into contested terrority and let lose a broad side and only go WF when needed. PHR might still need a buff, but once people start understanding the mechnics more I think the gap will shrink a bit. .

With Shaltari particle weapons, you are looking at it wrong. Yes their total damage output is lower but it will scale better against heavy targets, targets in other orbital layers, or behind cover. You can use them to takeoff hull from PHR frigates or ships hiding in atmosphere. There are also reinforced armor save ships coming as well. It isn't like a burnthrough laser where you can just lean heavily on them, but they have a their place and are a useful, but not specialized weapon.


Its not to early though. Its all been mathed out, played by many people, and shown on hawk forums and the main dropfleet fb group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1194688467223904/

I have over 3k points of fully painted PHR with many games. Look at the numbers, and also figure in how the game plays. Its turn 4+ for a PHR ship to weapons free and get the most bang for their bucks, and that's if the opponent let them get there. If its not weapons free, its less then any other of the factions ships that match it. Broadsides are crap right now. PHR can still be good, but your focused on BTL and launch assets with troop ships. That's the 3 best things they have going for them.

Not looking at particle wrong either. Besides the Diamond, it is bad, plain and simple. Disintegrator bank beats it out every time except diamond. Its to expensive. and in different layers it still suffers -1 to hit. And you still get the penalty for debris fields so not sure why you suggest using them for those? There is never a reason ever to take a Jade over a Topaz.

Stranger83 wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:


So a few things after playing many games as each.

PHR, are of the 4, the worst. They have good stuff as you mentioned. Bombers and troopships. but like you said, there are tons of threads here, facebook, hawkforums with supporting math that the broadsides are total crapo. Dave also said in two vids posted PHR is supposed to run up the middle, guns blazing. I imagine at some point they will get a fix. They can be played, and people can win if you take the least amount of broadsides as possible. This is very counter active to the whole point of PHR. Until they are fixed, they will remain in my foam carry case, sealed away.


I've actually seen the opposite, with most people saying that the PHR broadsides work very well - guess it depends on what forum/facebook page you look at.

In fact in my own group we originally played with medium caliber broadsides having the caliber (M) rule and we ended up taking it out because we found the PHR were too powerful! Guess it's each to his own on that score but I'm just not seeing the problem, and most of the charts I've seen put the Orion as one of the top for damage output, both with weapons free and without, certainly not at the bottom.


The FB page is the main Dropfleet page https://www.facebook.com/groups/1194688467223904/ and the forum is hawks own forum. http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/ The two biggest sources of data in stats/game reports. So I'm not sure where you see they work very well. For PHR to even be competive, you take mass troopships, launch assets and forward guns as the theme of broadsides is not good at all in game.

Check out DF list even on proof of whats being picked because its good to whats not. Top three for Med and Heavy

Medium - Ganymede (troopship) Ikarus (Launch assets) Theseus (one of the very few actual good broadside ships because its so dirt cheap)
Heavy Bellerophon (launch and forward gun) Hector (Front BTL) Scipio (launch)

Theme is front guns and launch as its the only thing going for PHR. The illusion people see is the 3+ armor "being amazing" when people have played with 2+ armor for them and they died all the same with little difference. The game is all about crits.




The game is new and PHR are a difficult faction to use right, people generally prefer to play the 'march up the middle and shoot' method whilst they are learning and front facing guns and BTL help here, I'm therefore not surprised that these are currently preferred. As for the heavy - they all come with a front BTL so it's hardly surprising that people take heavy choices that include this.

I'm part of that same Facebook group - I've not seen anyone complain about PHR, and infact most of the posts I've seen on there show PHR as being good, perhaps facebook is filtering the posts we are both shown based on what we've looked at before - I know facebook does do this.

Lets do a little maths here, comparing the Orion (PHR 'ship of the line' to the UCM equivalent (and I'm doing all this from memory so I may be a little wrong with the numbers)

Orion
Single weapon shot Weapon Free
Potential damage 8 20
Average hits 4 10
Average crits 0.6 1.6
Average hits exclusing crits 2.7 8.4
Average damage (assuming 3+ save) 1.7 4.4


(Not I'm not 100% sure on the guns on the UCM - I think they are F and S guns and have 2 guns that are 3+ 4 shoots and 2 4+ 4 shots so I've worked it out on them)

UCM Single Weapon Shot Weapon Free
Potential damage 4 16
Average hits 2.6 9.3
Average Crits 1.3 2.1
Average hits excluding crits 1.3 7.2
Average damage (assuming 3+ save) 1.7 4.5


You can see the PHR is fairly similar in all situations.

What does the UCM get over the PHR? Well, they can 'focus fire' meaning that if they go weapons free they can pour all their shots into a single ship, as opposed to the PHR that to weapons free MUST attack different ships due to the facing issue. You could therefore legitimately compare the UCM weapons free to the Orions single weapons when targeting a single ship so lets do that.


PHR UCM
Potential damage 8 9.3
Average hits 4 7.2
Average crits 0.6 2.1
Average hits exclusing crits 3.4 [color=darkred] 6.7[/color]
Average damage (assuming 3+ save) 1.7 4.5

Now you can see that the PHR does do a fairly significant reduction in damage, so what does it get in exchange?

Well, it hasn't had to go weapons free - so no major spike added, if you are playing them without marching up the middle this could be huge for staying out of range of your opponent. You also have the flexibility to give a different order to weapons free if you so choose giving greater flexibility to the fleet. There is the potential to output this from both sides without even needing to go weapons free so you still get the flexibility of other orders or not putting out the spike and doing a similar amount of damage to the UCM, just spread across the fleet.

You get more HP then the UCM and (and again this is from memory so I might be wrong) a larger PD value. You also get an extra 2" scan range, further helping you stay out of range if required.

So you'll forgive me if I still don't see the problem with broadsides other than that people are using them wrong.

EDIT - it didn't keep the table format I made so I've added colours for single shot compared to weapons free.
SECOND EDIT - changing the colours so they show up better.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/10 08:48:29


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The PD is the same. Its 5 for each.

But your not paying attention to what I also said. How many turns is that Rio going to get to fire? A lot more then Orion, because of the forward guns.

UCM is always going to bring the Lima, so you going to get lots of pings. Even silent run, they can ping you a ton more then any other faction. You are getting shot long before an Orion will be shooting. That's the problem with most of the PHR. They are designed to "go up the middle". Dave states this in two separate BoW vids that's how he made them. Obviously they didn't playtest this, or play the game a really weird way in the UK as this doesn't work in how the game is actually played.

Now people will play them different, as they have their own ideas, but at the end of the day, you are still getting shot first before anyone else. Ive even tried the whole sideways at an angle move up and shoot. Med broadsides are the "best" out of all the options, but its not very good still. Not as good as any front facing weapon.

Not sure if you are part of the hawk forums, but id recommend checking this out http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9412

Facebook might be filter like you said, but general on hawk is they are poop
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




If you don’t fight the UCM head on then you’ll get just as many turns shooting as the UCM – I showed you this in diagrams on the other thread (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/705514.page#9088525), I’m really not sure what your argument is here ‘If I use my ships less optimally I get out gunned’ – well of cause you will, but that’s not the factions fault it’s yours for playing them a less optimal way

Dave may have intended the PHR to be the ‘up the middle’ faction, but that is not the optimal way to use them. No matter how good a game designer you are once things are in players hands then your intention goes out the window, ask any game designer and they will tell you the same thing.

EDIT after reading the first two pages of the post you linked:
Also, the link you’ve posted to the Hawk Forum is not ‘everyone agrees that Broadsides are bad’ there are 1 or two who don’t like them and a similar number who are pointing out they are fine, which actually is the point I’m making. PHR are not a faction for everyone, they are probably the most difficult to get the best use out of – but them who have found the optimum way of using them realise that actually they are pretty good. They are pretty much the only faction for who ‘weapons free’ is situation rather than mandatory, leaving you far more tactical options than other fleets.

As I said, it comes down to play style – PHR are not for everyone I admit, but there is nothing ‘wrong’ with them if you play them to their optimum play style.

SECOND EDIT:

Just looked up the equivalent UCM ship and realised I’ve given it 4 extra 4+ hit shots and 4 extra 3+ hit shots, considering this equates to half the shots for my figures above it puts the PHR in an even better light (unless you want me to compare a Heavy Cruiser to a cruiser, but that hardly seems fair).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/10 16:15:43


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Stranger83 wrote:
If you don’t fight the UCM head on then you’ll get just as many turns shooting as the UCM – I showed you this in diagrams on the other thread (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/705514.page#9088525), I’m really not sure what your argument is here ‘If I use my ships less optimally I get out gunned’ – well of cause you will, but that’s not the factions fault it’s yours for playing them a less optimal way

Dave may have intended the PHR to be the ‘up the middle’ faction, but that is not the optimal way to use them. No matter how good a game designer you are once things are in players hands then your intention goes out the window, ask any game designer and they will tell you the same thing.

EDIT after reading the first two pages of the post you linked:
Also, the link you’ve posted to the Hawk Forum is not ‘everyone agrees that Broadsides are bad’ there are 1 or two who don’t like them and a similar number who are pointing out they are fine, which actually is the point I’m making. PHR are not a faction for everyone, they are probably the most difficult to get the best use out of – but them who have found the optimum way of using them realise that actually they are pretty good. They are pretty much the only faction for who ‘weapons free’ is situation rather than mandatory, leaving you far more tactical options than other fleets.

As I said, it comes down to play style – PHR are not for everyone I admit, but there is nothing ‘wrong’ with them if you play them to their optimum play style.

SECOND EDIT:

Just looked up the equivalent UCM ship and realised I’ve given it 4 extra 4+ hit shots and 4 extra 3+ hit shots, considering this equates to half the shots for my figures above it puts the PHR in an even better light (unless you want me to compare a Heavy Cruiser to a cruiser, but that hardly seems fair).



As it stated, Med turrets are your best bet, but they are still not that good. when you look at the other factions. Your right, weapons free for them is situational, but the other factions will be doing it to you turn after turn, doing more firepower to you. Even by your drawing, PHR not only has to spread out, but get one of the opponents ships between the other 2 PHR. So that both can focus fire on that one ship. PHR still needs ot be set up perfectly, which is a disadvantage, as the other 3 factions don't have that handy cap. I'm not gaining any greater experience of play if I perfectly position my ships in the way your drawing shows, when any other race can move 2 ships forward, weapons free both and prob kill one of the PHR ships no problem.

the only reward you do get is if you can actually weapons free and wipe out a lot of ships, but that doesn't happen to often by that point.

There are also lots more threads there posting on it, and its more then just a few people who think so.

Like the last thread, we are not going to agree. If they work in your meta, great. but they are at a large handicap here. Hence why I have a Shaltari fleet and scourge fleet now. I know they will fix them, but that wont be til the next official hawk tourney where everyone will see they under perform.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It is far more likely that people will adapt their tactics and success. The game is still only a couple months old. We are also missing corvettes and dreads to even the races out.

I know some people have put a lot of games in some even proxying corvettes and using battleships. However, a lot of those are still "I am just playing in my local meta and I can't figure it out". It could in fact be worse than you say because other factions are trying to figure out how to get the most of their abilities as well. Or it could be not as much of a problem as the internet thinks. Wait until a few tournies go by and then we will see.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




nedTCM wrote:
It is far more likely that people will adapt their tactics and success. The game is still only a couple months old. We are also missing corvettes and dreads to even the races out.

I know some people have put a lot of games in some even proxying corvettes and using battleships. However, a lot of those are still "I am just playing in my local meta and I can't figure it out". It could in fact be worse than you say because other factions are trying to figure out how to get the most of their abilities as well. Or it could be not as much of a problem as the internet thinks. Wait until a few tournies go by and then we will see.


Well corvettes have been kit bashed for all races since day one and used. And I don't think the dreads are needed to balance out the races. Or should I say, they shouldn't be needed to do so. But yea, once the tourneys happen I feel like you will see a lot of the same lists. To many things right now are the same, or slightly upgraded/downgraded forms of eachother.

In DZC, while theres tons more units, there is so many roles they fit, and lists are always pretty different.. This game inherently has a lot less roles to fill.
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon





Kalamazoo

I've seen the complaints on the hawk forums. Broadsides are harder to use then the UCM turrets.

The UCM in general seems very easy to play and most of their ships are very forgiving. They have easy access to a good selection of burn through lasers, a scanner and a PD frigate.

Likewise the Scourge are pretty straight forward as well. Charge close and fire.

The PHR are the big faction where you don't need to get close, and you don't just charge forward. You need to move in larger groups and hit as a wave. Control of the map center seems to be key, as you can turn and broadside, and your opponent must move closer in order to bring their guns to bear.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




str00dles1 wrote:


As it stated, Med turrets are your best bet, but they are still not that good. when you look at the other factions. Your right, weapons free for them is situational, but the other factions will be doing it to you turn after turn, doing more firepower to you. Even by your drawing, PHR not only has to spread out, but get one of the opponents ships between the other 2 PHR. So that both can focus fire on that one ship. PHR still needs ot be set up perfectly, which is a disadvantage, as the other 3 factions don't have that handy cap. I'm not gaining any greater experience of play if I perfectly position my ships in the way your drawing shows, when any other race can move 2 ships forward, weapons free both and prob kill one of the PHR ships no problem.

the only reward you do get is if you can actually weapons free and wipe out a lot of ships, but that doesn't happen to often by that point.

There are also lots more threads there posting on it, and its more then just a few people who think so.

Like the last thread, we are not going to agree. If they work in your meta, great. but they are at a large handicap here. Hence why I have a Shaltari fleet and scourge fleet now. I know they will fix them, but that wont be til the next official hawk tourney where everyone will see they under perform.


Again though you seem to be working on the assumption that the PHR should head on against his opponent. Let us look at this in detail.

Let us assume that all the objectives are in the middle of the board, and the UCM player decides to throw his entire force at them. – if the PHR player does the same he’ll be out gunned and lose as his broadsides are out of arc for too long and he’s allowed the UCM player to weapons free each turn.

Now let us look at a smart PHR player:

He deploys his ships on either table edge, this forces the UCM player into a tough choice – does he turn his ships to fight the PHR or continue to the objective?

1) He continues to the objective.
The UCM player here is able to get to the objective on turn two and start to deploy troops, his guns are a long way from the PHR player and so he cannot go weapons free as he needs to use the active scan order to apply pings to the PHR, sadly this means he is out gunned as his single shots are not as good as the PHR single shots and because he is active scanning he is adding major spike to his ships. The PHR player however doesn’t need to weapons free so can active scan who he wants and still put out more fire power than the UCM.
The PHR player takes advantage of this greater firepower to spend 2/3 turns taking out the biggest threat of the UCM ships, he then uses the fact he doesn’t need to go weapons free to get effective shooting from his ships to do a course change command on turn 4 and swing his ships into position to contest the objectives. He now outnumbers the UCM player and so wins the ‘in space’ contest, but loses the ground because he’s not been dropping troops as long, end of turn 4 UCM player winning. Over the next two turns there is a bit of a slugging match in the middle – since he was able to get the upper hand over the start phases the PHR wins this and quickly dispatches the UCM troop ships – meanwhile his own troop ships are both dropping troops and using their excellent bombardment to clean up the UCM ground assents – at the end of turn 6 the PHR players wins bother the ‘space’ and ‘ground’ contest, ultimate win for the PHR

2) He turns to fight the PHR
The UCM player is able to make maximum use of his ‘weapons free’ this means turn 1 he cannot weapons free (as you cannot turn and give the weapons free command) but he does get turns 2/3 of going weapons free. For this period he is outgunning the PHR who will lose a few ships. The UCM player however is not deploying any ground assets at this point since he abandoned the objective to run at the PHR ships. The PHR player on turn 4 takes the initiative and swings his ships onto the objectives, still being able to put out the same firepower as before despite the none weapons free command. This puts the UCM player facing the table edges – away from the objective and with no boots on the ground. End of turn 4 the PHR are winning the ‘in space’ and ground contest as the UCM moved away from the objectives.
The UCM player has to spend turn 5 and 6 desperately trying to get his fleet back into position to drop some troops on the objective – he now has more ships than the PHR but can no longer weapons free as he needs to use the change course or flat out command to get into position, he finally gets his ships into position to fight the PHR on turn six and wins the ‘in space’ contest – but with a lack of bombardment ships struggles to clear the PHR out of the sectors and loses the ground combat, ultimate win for the PHR.


Now I know both these scenarios are ‘perfect day’ and it’s not going to go as smoothly as this, I’m just trying to show you that up the middle is not the way to use PHR. Play to their strengths, with the higher HP and better guns if not going weapons free, if you keep your opponent away from weapons free by good positioning – or at least force him to abandon the objectives to chase you - you’ll win more than you lose.

I've shown you that the guns themselves are actually on a fairly even setting, but your argument seems to be that you want to throw your PHR up the middle and take your opponent head on, you are ofcause free to do this but it's hardly Hawks fault or the factions if you chose to use them in a less optimal fashion.

I do agree with you about med turrets being the best. Light are also pretty good in my opinion but I cannot for the life of me find a single advantage to taking the heavy turret over bombers. Unless you've already hit the bomber cap (fairly difficult with PHR) then heavy broadsides just seem weak.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Stranger83 wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:


As it stated, Med turrets are your best bet, but they are still not that good. when you look at the other factions. Your right, weapons free for them is situational, but the other factions will be doing it to you turn after turn, doing more firepower to you. Even by your drawing, PHR not only has to spread out, but get one of the opponents ships between the other 2 PHR. So that both can focus fire on that one ship. PHR still needs ot be set up perfectly, which is a disadvantage, as the other 3 factions don't have that handy cap. I'm not gaining any greater experience of play if I perfectly position my ships in the way your drawing shows, when any other race can move 2 ships forward, weapons free both and prob kill one of the PHR ships no problem.

the only reward you do get is if you can actually weapons free and wipe out a lot of ships, but that doesn't happen to often by that point.

There are also lots more threads there posting on it, and its more then just a few people who think so.

Like the last thread, we are not going to agree. If they work in your meta, great. but they are at a large handicap here. Hence why I have a Shaltari fleet and scourge fleet now. I know they will fix them, but that wont be til the next official hawk tourney where everyone will see they under perform.


Again though you seem to be working on the assumption that the PHR should head on against his opponent. Let us look at this in detail.

Let us assume that all the objectives are in the middle of the board, and the UCM player decides to throw his entire force at them. – if the PHR player does the same he’ll be out gunned and lose as his broadsides are out of arc for too long and he’s allowed the UCM player to weapons free each turn.

Now let us look at a smart PHR player:

He deploys his ships on either table edge, this forces the UCM player into a tough choice – does he turn his ships to fight the PHR or continue to the objective?

1) He continues to the objective.
The UCM player here is able to get to the objective on turn two and start to deploy troops, his guns are a long way from the PHR player and so he cannot go weapons free as he needs to use the active scan order to apply pings to the PHR, sadly this means he is out gunned as his single shots are not as good as the PHR single shots and because he is active scanning he is adding major spike to his ships. The PHR player however doesn’t need to weapons free so can active scan who he wants and still put out more fire power than the UCM.
The PHR player takes advantage of this greater firepower to spend 2/3 turns taking out the biggest threat of the UCM ships, he then uses the fact he doesn’t need to go weapons free to get effective shooting from his ships to do a course change command on turn 4 and swing his ships into position to contest the objectives. He now outnumbers the UCM player and so wins the ‘in space’ contest, but loses the ground because he’s not been dropping troops as long, end of turn 4 UCM player winning. Over the next two turns there is a bit of a slugging match in the middle – since he was able to get the upper hand over the start phases the PHR wins this and quickly dispatches the UCM troop ships – meanwhile his own troop ships are both dropping troops and using their excellent bombardment to clean up the UCM ground assents – at the end of turn 6 the PHR players wins bother the ‘space’ and ‘ground’ contest, ultimate win for the PHR

2) He turns to fight the PHR
The UCM player is able to make maximum use of his ‘weapons free’ this means turn 1 he cannot weapons free (as you cannot turn and give the weapons free command) but he does get turns 2/3 of going weapons free. For this period he is outgunning the PHR who will lose a few ships. The UCM player however is not deploying any ground assets at this point since he abandoned the objective to run at the PHR ships. The PHR player on turn 4 takes the initiative and swings his ships onto the objectives, still being able to put out the same firepower as before despite the none weapons free command. This puts the UCM player facing the table edges – away from the objective and with no boots on the ground. End of turn 4 the PHR are winning the ‘in space’ and ground contest as the UCM moved away from the objectives.
The UCM player has to spend turn 5 and 6 desperately trying to get his fleet back into position to drop some troops on the objective – he now has more ships than the PHR but can no longer weapons free as he needs to use the change course or flat out command to get into position, he finally gets his ships into position to fight the PHR on turn six and wins the ‘in space’ contest – but with a lack of bombardment ships struggles to clear the PHR out of the sectors and loses the ground combat, ultimate win for the PHR.


Now I know both these scenarios are ‘perfect day’ and it’s not going to go as smoothly as this, I’m just trying to show you that up the middle is not the way to use PHR. Play to their strengths, with the higher HP and better guns if not going weapons free, if you keep your opponent away from weapons free by good positioning – or at least force him to abandon the objectives to chase you - you’ll win more than you lose.

I've shown you that the guns themselves are actually on a fairly even setting, but your argument seems to be that you want to throw your PHR up the middle and take your opponent head on, you are ofcause free to do this but it's hardly Hawks fault or the factions if you chose to use them in a less optimal fashion.

I do agree with you about med turrets being the best. Light are also pretty good in my opinion but I cannot for the life of me find a single advantage to taking the heavy turret over bombers. Unless you've already hit the bomber cap (fairly difficult with PHR) then heavy broadsides just seem weak.



You are missing #3. The UCM player can do both, and do both easily. I see this every game ive played UCM. Lets say his groups are mixed, as usually youll have a larger gunship and some troop ships with it. You can also just do 4 troopships or more( which is often used) They are all open, so its pretty easy to fly them in by themselves to the objectives and drop off since they don't have to be within 12 of eachother. He can then place his larger ship killers out there to couter you going on the sides, and send his troopships up the middle or sides also if need be. The troopships are going to come on, and can easily drop to low orbit turn 1, and turn 2 be in atmo, making them near impossible to even hit, dropping guys off turn 2. You could do the same as PHR, but your going to loose the space battle, as they can weapon free you while still deploying troops. Also every UCM player will be taking Limas, which can scan, and you don't even need to use that as the battle group order. You can scan then weapons free. # 3 happens almost always. And its not just UCM. Scourge fly up also just the same, also scanning with frigates and letting the big hitting weapons free with their great arc of fire.

As for the guns, Med Cal is the "best" like ive said. Best being a loose term, as it still needs 6s to crit, or you cant even if in different layers. Light is ok if your shooting a lot at frigates, otherwise its horrible. And its proven heavy its totally worthless.

As for bombarding them, PHR bombardment is ok. Nothing amazing. UCM has the best, then id say Shaltari and PHR tied, then Scourge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/11 15:38:43


 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

Getting a couple games in this weekend, good posts everyone, PHR seem to be a HUGE discussion on multiple fronts.

I think when look at this from a "tactics" standpoint, Up the middle can also mean horizontally?

I mean they have some of the lowest thrust ratings, but that also means they can put down more shots on target since they aren't zooming past the other factions.

You look at any kind of naval tactics with "crossing the T", the intent isn't to necessarily have the most firepower, but to be able to apply that firepower in a way that the other person cannot do so. That can be done via range, positioning, and ship coordination.

So an example, you START up the sides like some pointed out, you immediately have an advantage as:
A. PHR have some really nasty burn thru weapons if someone also lines up in front of you.
B. The other player has that hard choice, do I put down troops and support them? (Sitting out of range) Do I turn to engage and hope my troops are ok going solo? Do I delay my troop deployment and focus on engaging?
C. You've eliminated half of the board for getting flanked, that's huge for limited movement.

Finally, when you hit the half way mark on the table or hell I would argue go max thrust and get past the half way mark asap, you can use your slower thrust to "cross the T(able)". If UCM are super duper weapons forward and have terrible scan, get behind them or force them to take spikes to catch up to you. You are still going up the middle, but now you are limiting at least 1-2 arcs of fire if you cross the table horizontally instead of literally.

Honestly I'm looking at this from a "make it work", I totally understand the argument of lacking firepower from a math standpoint.

Edit: Re-read some of these comments, I'm wondering how it's possible for UCM ships to "sit back" when their scan range and sig is so terrible? Going slow is going to get them to max spike pretty fast isn't it? Also, isn't the medea pretty nasty? It has an atmospheric bombardment and 5 hp, that seems pretty dang nasty for unsupported enemy troops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/11 19:42:46


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




UCM bombardment requires a specialist ship - one less ship that is shooting you or dropping troops, PHR comes as part of our troops ships and is a nice freebie.

I'm not entirely sure what UCM players you play, but they seem to have the ship numbers to always be active scanning, always be weapons free, bring their specialist bombardment ships (as opposed to it being included in troop ships) and turn to keep their guns on target each turn - I suppose if I came up against the same I'd struggle also but I've not met anyone who is able to do this yet.

You seem to be comparing a PHR ship on standard orders to the other factions using two to three orders per turn, it's not surprising that they come out better - it's why we call them special orders.

* in fairness I'm picking on UCM as you seem to be wanting to play the 'up the middle game', and UCM excel at this more than the other factions.
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon





Kalamazoo

Stranger83 wrote:
UCM bombardment requires a specialist ship - one less ship that is shooting you or dropping troops, PHR comes as part of our troops ships and is a nice freebie.

I'm not entirely sure what UCM players you play, but they seem to have the ship numbers to always be active scanning, always be weapons free, bring their specialist bombardment ships (as opposed to it being included in troop ships) and turn to keep their guns on target each turn - I suppose if I came up against the same I'd struggle also but I've not met anyone who is able to do this yet.


To dovetail with this, you can have 3 New Cairos and 2 Limas in a line group for about the same cost as two Orpheus and two Calypso. The New Cairo's don't need special orders to be effective with their burn through lasers, and are cheap at 88 points a pop. They would have an effective range of (6 scan + 6 signature +12 major spike+10 move) 34 inches on one target. If the Calypso special rule is not used, the burn through lasers would average 3 hits per New Cairo, for a total of 9 and possibly 1-2 crits. The 3+ armor on the Orpheus will save 2/3rds, so the full squadron will do 5 damage to one target per phase. That means it takes just over two phases of shooting to kill one ship, barring a lucky role on the crippled table.

On the PHR player's turn, his ships are 34 inches away, but only have an effective range of 30 inches against the Limas, so would not be able to retaliate without active scanning. They could however do the same and hit a Cairo with their Burn throughs for 1 damage a turn, but it's not worth it. Instead, they should drop troops. 12 bulk landers, assuming they drop every turn, is 36 troops. It would take 6 assault carriers to drop that in a game.

Also, the UCM assault carriers near those locations would be at risk. An Orpheus broadside will average 2 hits even when it atmosphere. The two Troopships should kill a single carrier a turn, more if they are not in atmosphere.

So, offensively, the UCM would have to devote 3 burn throughs and all their Lima assets at two ships for 4 turns to take out the troop ships. Their own strike carriers and troopships can't reach the far objectives until they clear it, and if they devote more firepower then they are not shooting at the PHR offensive ships, which should boost into double broadside range unopposed.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 sfshilo wrote:


So an example, you START up the sides like some pointed out, you immediately have an advantage as:
A. PHR have some really nasty burn thru weapons if someone also lines up in front of you.
B. The other player has that hard choice, do I put down troops and support them? (Sitting out of range) Do I turn to engage and hope my troops are ok going solo? Do I delay my troop deployment and focus on engaging?
C. You've eliminated half of the board for getting flanked, that's huge for limited movement.

Edit: Re-read some of these comments, I'm wondering how it's possible for UCM ships to "sit back" when their scan range and sig is so terrible? Going slow is going to get them to max spike pretty fast isn't it? Also, isn't the medea pretty nasty? It has an atmospheric bombardment and 5 hp, that seems pretty dang nasty for unsupported enemy troops.


They have Ok burn through. Its better then the broadsides, but UCM is the winner there. So Burn for Burn UCM is going to out gun you.

Maybe is how we play, but I don't get the hard choice they have. If I'm PHR and I'm on the flanks of the table, they can easily drop their troops around the middle unharmed. I wont have range to them. First turn all troopships drop a level anyways. Never a reason not to go to low orbit. So either I need to come on and drop also on the sides or its going to be near impossible to hit them. Turn 2, good chance most troop ships are in atmo. So I guess by then I can start to get shots on the bulk landers, but its going to be a lot of shots to bring them down. They will at least drop off once if not two turns before being killed, and that's if I focus on them.

All the while this is going on, I have the fleet in front of me attacking me. So its put on me to make the choice. Do I try to out kill the murder ships or stop the troops. I can try to out troop them, and bombard them. The media is good but I wouldn't call it nasty. It can do 2 bombard shots needing 4+. You need to really focus fire on a enemy position to make it matter

and to who mentioned the Calypso, I will never ever again take one until they make them a lot cheaper, ALOT or make how the buff works better. Its so horrible its not worth the points at all. Once a round a SINGLE weapon from a enemy is 1 harder. If it was ALL ships that target the ship for the round it would be worth it. UCM support is good as the PD stacks. Even if PD is a crapshoot, it helps. and The Shaltari makes it reroll for the whole turn for shields but PHR is a single use a round 1 weapon. Useless.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




str00dles1 wrote:
 sfshilo wrote:


So an example, you START up the sides like some pointed out, you immediately have an advantage as:
A. PHR have some really nasty burn thru weapons if someone also lines up in front of you.
B. The other player has that hard choice, do I put down troops and support them? (Sitting out of range) Do I turn to engage and hope my troops are ok going solo? Do I delay my troop deployment and focus on engaging?
C. You've eliminated half of the board for getting flanked, that's huge for limited movement.

Edit: Re-read some of these comments, I'm wondering how it's possible for UCM ships to "sit back" when their scan range and sig is so terrible? Going slow is going to get them to max spike pretty fast isn't it? Also, isn't the medea pretty nasty? It has an atmospheric bombardment and 5 hp, that seems pretty dang nasty for unsupported enemy troops.


They have Ok burn through. Its better then the broadsides, but UCM is the winner there. So Burn for Burn UCM is going to out gun you.

Maybe is how we play, but I don't get the hard choice they have. If I'm PHR and I'm on the flanks of the table, they can easily drop their troops around the middle unharmed. I wont have range to them. First turn all troopships drop a level anyways. Never a reason not to go to low orbit. So either I need to come on and drop also on the sides or its going to be near impossible to hit them. Turn 2, good chance most troop ships are in atmo. So I guess by then I can start to get shots on the bulk landers, but its going to be a lot of shots to bring them down. They will at least drop off once if not two turns before being killed, and that's if I focus on them.

All the while this is going on, I have the fleet in front of me attacking me. So its put on me to make the choice. Do I try to out kill the murder ships or stop the troops. I can try to out troop them, and bombard them. The media is good but I wouldn't call it nasty. It can do 2 bombard shots needing 4+. You need to really focus fire on a enemy position to make it matter

and to who mentioned the Calypso, I will never ever again take one until they make them a lot cheaper, ALOT or make how the buff works better. Its so horrible its not worth the points at all. Once a round a SINGLE weapon from a enemy is 1 harder. If it was ALL ships that target the ship for the round it would be worth it. UCM support is good as the PD stacks. Even if PD is a crapshoot, it helps. and The Shaltari makes it reroll for the whole turn for shields but PHR is a single use a round 1 weapon. Useless.


I would argue with your point that the UCM burn through is better than the PHR, but it's really a 50/50 call and depends on personal preference.

I've already stated why you don't need to worry about your opponent dropping troops before you so I'm not going to cover that again. Being in orbit is no defence against Corvettes, the fact that you've brought this up makes me think you are not using these? And even against ships in atmo the PHR have the perfect tool in the light broadsides - no other faction has a ship as effective at taking out ships in atmo (yet another plus for Broadsides that you just wash over).

You keep bringing up the UCM support ships, and then complain the UCM have more ships than you. Whilst it is likely they'll have more ships than you if they take all the support ships like you seem to want, plus the bombardment ships, suddenly it doesn't matter that they have more ships than you as they have 1/2 'direct combat' ships, whilst your entire force is able to engage in direct combat AND do it's extra job. Your complaint was that the UCM are out gunning you but this won't be the case if they are spending points on their admittedly nice support ships (and 2 limas and a Madrid come in at 153 points, adding zero combat fire power to the UCM, this is before you even start on the Ageis and such).

The Strike carriers are ok, but the game is won or lost on troop ships, here are ships have a duel roll AND a huge amount of extra HP (13 if I recall correctly, 4 more than most factions) this is a MASSIVE plus for the PHR that most factions can only dream about.

I agree about the Calypso, it's not really worth the points at the moment. If it affected all shots from a gun type (e.g. all burnthrough lazers, all Particle shots or all mass driver shots) then it'd be a ship worth taking, but it doesn't at the moment so if highly situational.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Stranger83 wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:
 sfshilo wrote:


So an example, you START up the sides like some pointed out, you immediately have an advantage as:
A. PHR have some really nasty burn thru weapons if someone also lines up in front of you.
B. The other player has that hard choice, do I put down troops and support them? (Sitting out of range) Do I turn to engage and hope my troops are ok going solo? Do I delay my troop deployment and focus on engaging?
C. You've eliminated half of the board for getting flanked, that's huge for limited movement.

Edit: Re-read some of these comments, I'm wondering how it's possible for UCM ships to "sit back" when their scan range and sig is so terrible? Going slow is going to get them to max spike pretty fast isn't it? Also, isn't the medea pretty nasty? It has an atmospheric bombardment and 5 hp, that seems pretty dang nasty for unsupported enemy troops.


They have Ok burn through. Its better then the broadsides, but UCM is the winner there. So Burn for Burn UCM is going to out gun you.

Maybe is how we play, but I don't get the hard choice they have. If I'm PHR and I'm on the flanks of the table, they can easily drop their troops around the middle unharmed. I wont have range to them. First turn all troopships drop a level anyways. Never a reason not to go to low orbit. So either I need to come on and drop also on the sides or its going to be near impossible to hit them. Turn 2, good chance most troop ships are in atmo. So I guess by then I can start to get shots on the bulk landers, but its going to be a lot of shots to bring them down. They will at least drop off once if not two turns before being killed, and that's if I focus on them.

All the while this is going on, I have the fleet in front of me attacking me. So its put on me to make the choice. Do I try to out kill the murder ships or stop the troops. I can try to out troop them, and bombard them. The media is good but I wouldn't call it nasty. It can do 2 bombard shots needing 4+. You need to really focus fire on a enemy position to make it matter

and to who mentioned the Calypso, I will never ever again take one until they make them a lot cheaper, ALOT or make how the buff works better. Its so horrible its not worth the points at all. Once a round a SINGLE weapon from a enemy is 1 harder. If it was ALL ships that target the ship for the round it would be worth it. UCM support is good as the PD stacks. Even if PD is a crapshoot, it helps. and The Shaltari makes it reroll for the whole turn for shields but PHR is a single use a round 1 weapon. Useless.


I would argue with your point that the UCM burn through is better than the PHR, but it's really a 50/50 call and depends on personal preference.

I've already stated why you don't need to worry about your opponent dropping troops before you so I'm not going to cover that again. Being in orbit is no defence against Corvettes, the fact that you've brought this up makes me think you are not using these? And even against ships in atmo the PHR have the perfect tool in the light broadsides - no other faction has a ship as effective at taking out ships in atmo (yet another plus for Broadsides that you just wash over).

You keep bringing up the UCM support ships, and then complain the UCM have more ships than you. Whilst it is likely they'll have more ships than you if they take all the support ships like you seem to want, plus the bombardment ships, suddenly it doesn't matter that they have more ships than you as they have 1/2 'direct combat' ships, whilst your entire force is able to engage in direct combat AND do it's extra job. Your complaint was that the UCM are out gunning you but this won't be the case if they are spending points on their admittedly nice support ships (and 2 limas and a Madrid come in at 153 points, adding zero combat fire power to the UCM, this is before you even start on the Ageis and such).

The Strike carriers are ok, but the game is won or lost on troop ships, here are ships have a duel roll AND a huge amount of extra HP (13 if I recall correctly, 4 more than most factions) this is a MASSIVE plus for the PHR that most factions can only dream about.

I agree about the Calypso, it's not really worth the points at the moment. If it affected all shots from a gun type (e.g. all burnthrough lazers, all Particle shots or all mass driver shots) then it'd be a ship worth taking, but it doesn't at the moment so if highly situational.


Using PHR Corevttes? IMO they are the best of the 4 factions as they can actually be a threat to normal ships. I have not used the 4 I converted yet. UCM player is waiting for retail, and the scourge player converted their own and uses them

Also you know that light broadsides still need 6s to hit ships in atmo. Its not a perfect answer. Its a lot of fire I guess, but hardly good.

The thing is the UCM support ships not only have close action like PHR and Shaltari ones, but they have a main gun. Its not game breaking by any means, but each one gets a 4+ shot that hits F/S. Shaltari and PHR get close action and that's it. While minor, every UCM ship has a threat potential. And to counter your point, no the Madrid and Lima are not direct combat, but they do have guns to fire. 153 is not much in our standard 1500 games. Ive played only 2 games under that amount, the last 15 or so games have been 1500. UCM I see is 2 Lima 1 Madrid and possibly 2 Jakarta, though not always.

Troopships are important yes. I have agreed PHR have the best Strike and Troop. Both being able to not only drop but bombard. They still don't last long, regardless of what faction (except shaltari) as people know they dump men/batteries on the ground so they are usually killed first.

At this point, im curious to know what you think is the "best" list for PHR for 1500. Do you use DFlist? Mind sharing a link with your thoughts on what would be the most optimized list to play PHR with using what you say works?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




str00dles1 wrote:
Stranger83 wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:
 sfshilo wrote:


So an example, you START up the sides like some pointed out, you immediately have an advantage as:
A. PHR have some really nasty burn thru weapons if someone also lines up in front of you.
B. The other player has that hard choice, do I put down troops and support them? (Sitting out of range) Do I turn to engage and hope my troops are ok going solo? Do I delay my troop deployment and focus on engaging?
C. You've eliminated half of the board for getting flanked, that's huge for limited movement.

Edit: Re-read some of these comments, I'm wondering how it's possible for UCM ships to "sit back" when their scan range and sig is so terrible? Going slow is going to get them to max spike pretty fast isn't it? Also, isn't the medea pretty nasty? It has an atmospheric bombardment and 5 hp, that seems pretty dang nasty for unsupported enemy troops.


They have Ok burn through. Its better then the broadsides, but UCM is the winner there. So Burn for Burn UCM is going to out gun you.

Maybe is how we play, but I don't get the hard choice they have. If I'm PHR and I'm on the flanks of the table, they can easily drop their troops around the middle unharmed. I wont have range to them. First turn all troopships drop a level anyways. Never a reason not to go to low orbit. So either I need to come on and drop also on the sides or its going to be near impossible to hit them. Turn 2, good chance most troop ships are in atmo. So I guess by then I can start to get shots on the bulk landers, but its going to be a lot of shots to bring them down. They will at least drop off once if not two turns before being killed, and that's if I focus on them.

All the while this is going on, I have the fleet in front of me attacking me. So its put on me to make the choice. Do I try to out kill the murder ships or stop the troops. I can try to out troop them, and bombard them. The media is good but I wouldn't call it nasty. It can do 2 bombard shots needing 4+. You need to really focus fire on a enemy position to make it matter

and to who mentioned the Calypso, I will never ever again take one until they make them a lot cheaper, ALOT or make how the buff works better. Its so horrible its not worth the points at all. Once a round a SINGLE weapon from a enemy is 1 harder. If it was ALL ships that target the ship for the round it would be worth it. UCM support is good as the PD stacks. Even if PD is a crapshoot, it helps. and The Shaltari makes it reroll for the whole turn for shields but PHR is a single use a round 1 weapon. Useless.


I would argue with your point that the UCM burn through is better than the PHR, but it's really a 50/50 call and depends on personal preference.

I've already stated why you don't need to worry about your opponent dropping troops before you so I'm not going to cover that again. Being in orbit is no defence against Corvettes, the fact that you've brought this up makes me think you are not using these? And even against ships in atmo the PHR have the perfect tool in the light broadsides - no other faction has a ship as effective at taking out ships in atmo (yet another plus for Broadsides that you just wash over).

You keep bringing up the UCM support ships, and then complain the UCM have more ships than you. Whilst it is likely they'll have more ships than you if they take all the support ships like you seem to want, plus the bombardment ships, suddenly it doesn't matter that they have more ships than you as they have 1/2 'direct combat' ships, whilst your entire force is able to engage in direct combat AND do it's extra job. Your complaint was that the UCM are out gunning you but this won't be the case if they are spending points on their admittedly nice support ships (and 2 limas and a Madrid come in at 153 points, adding zero combat fire power to the UCM, this is before you even start on the Ageis and such).

The Strike carriers are ok, but the game is won or lost on troop ships, here are ships have a duel roll AND a huge amount of extra HP (13 if I recall correctly, 4 more than most factions) this is a MASSIVE plus for the PHR that most factions can only dream about.

I agree about the Calypso, it's not really worth the points at the moment. If it affected all shots from a gun type (e.g. all burnthrough lazers, all Particle shots or all mass driver shots) then it'd be a ship worth taking, but it doesn't at the moment so if highly situational.


Using PHR Corevttes? IMO they are the best of the 4 factions as they can actually be a threat to normal ships. I have not used the 4 I converted yet. UCM player is waiting for retail, and the scourge player converted their own and uses them

Also you know that light broadsides still need 6s to hit ships in atmo. Its not a perfect answer. Its a lot of fire I guess, but hardly good.

The thing is the UCM support ships not only have close action like PHR and Shaltari ones, but they have a main gun. Its not game breaking by any means, but each one gets a 4+ shot that hits F/S. Shaltari and PHR get close action and that's it. While minor, every UCM ship has a threat potential. And to counter your point, no the Madrid and Lima are not direct combat, but they do have guns to fire. 153 is not much in our standard 1500 games. Ive played only 2 games under that amount, the last 15 or so games have been 1500. UCM I see is 2 Lima 1 Madrid and possibly 2 Jakarta, though not always.

Troopships are important yes. I have agreed PHR have the best Strike and Troop. Both being able to not only drop but bombard. They still don't last long, regardless of what faction (except shaltari) as people know they dump men/batteries on the ground so they are usually killed first.

At this point, im curious to know what you think is the "best" list for PHR for 1500. Do you use DFlist? Mind sharing a link with your thoughts on what would be the most optimized list to play PHR with using what you say works?


Yes, I know it's still 6's to hit, but 12 shots means you are still on average going to get two points of damage - most factions will do a fraction of a point of damage when shooting into atmo, it is a big deal.

Just done a tally up of the non troop ships you claim you come up against UCM. 2 Limas, 2 Jakartas and a Madrid comes inn at 217 points. That's 217 point of ships that have guns that are so negligible as to not really count. at 1500 points that's nearly 15% of the force. Assuming that he takes at a minimum 1 San Francisco and 2 New Orleans that 392 points - or 26% of his force. 26% of his force that isn't setup to do anything but his specialist function - something the PHR do not need to worry about as all our ships can shoot all the time. I just don't see how you are getting outgunned? Yes are ships are more expensive, but not 26% more expensive.

I switch my lists up quite a lot as the game is obviously new and I'm trying out new stuff - but my last game (an outright win against Scourge) I took this and it includes a couple of my 'all star' groups. Being the BR 4 Pandora pathfinder group (amazing as at BR4 you can essentially ensure you are the last activation of turn 2 and the first activation of turn 3, usually destroying 1/2 opponent troop ships before they can even react) and the double Orion group - which is just so flexible that I try to get into all my lists. I'd usually try to fit in an Orpheus into here as well in place of the 4 europas, but I was keen to try something new, I'd also usually take the Scipio over the Leonidas as I prefer the flexibility of not needing to weapons free to get the most out of my ships, but was pushing it for points if I wanted to try the groups I wanted to try.

http://dflist.com/s/#/share/539a479285907

EDIT to add: The other advantage of the SR4 Pandora group is if your opponent has gone strike carrier heavy you can 'flat out' in turn one and, provided you used the other groups to add pings to the carriers shoot them in turn 1 (assuming you activate the group last). You then get to activate them first in turn 2 and do it again. Nothing better than watching the horror on your opponents face as you've taken out 3/4 of his strike carriers before he's had the chance to get them into atmo. I'm aware this isn't broadside related, but it is yet another reasons why I love the PHR so much.

SECOND EDIT:
Of cause if you really want to mess with your opponents head take this, it still has a fairly large number of guns so whilst it’ll probably lose the ‘in space’ battle it will still make a good showing of itself – it’s also pretty deadly force for winning the ground battle. And at 13 HP per ship I defy your opponent from killing enough that he can drop more than you.

I actually haven’t tried this yet – but it’s definitely on my list (I’d need to heavy prox as even I don’t have this many troop ships)

http://dflist.com/s/#/share/9ec7484298419

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/13 09:09:40


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I am kind of surprised you have so few launch assets.

I didn't realize those Ganymede also had some some decent shooting either. How have you found the Hector performing? The internet hates it. I think it is a bit over priced.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




nedTCM wrote:
I am kind of surprised you have so few launch assets.

I didn't realize those Ganymede also had some some decent shooting either. How have you found the Hector performing? The internet hates it. I think it is a bit over priced.


I would usually have more – but when I dropped the Scipio I realise that I wasn’t going to have enough launch assets to make the most use of them so I decided to go the other way – I was actually a little surprised myself with how it went, further proof of what I’ve always believed that mass broadsides will do a good job when used well. The thing to remember with bombers is they are good in a pack, 1 or 2 bombers on their own however struggle a little to get past the PD.

The Hector is good, it’s not a patch on the Bellerophon and if I’d had the Scipio definitely wouldn’t have taken it, but it played a role well. I know it gets a lot of hate and I can see why, I would like to see a reduction by about 20 points personally to see it taken more as it is a good ship in it’s own right, it just struggles against the Bellerophon which is amazing for the price.

There was also a little bit of meta gaming on my behalf. I knew I was coming up against Scourge and he knew I was bringing PHR – knowing how good PHR bombers are I knew he’d max out his LA for the fighter cover (pretty easy to do for Scourge), by not taking the carriers I made him ‘waste’ the points.

* OK, not really waste as Scourge bombers are probably the second best in the game, but you get the point – never do what your opponent expects you to do, and now he’ll be thinking twice the next time we play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 14:32:10


 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

Got a 999 point game coming up, I'm playing Shaltari he is playing UCM.

List I'm going to try:
Vanguard with two jets
Line with two basalts
Pathfinder with four amethysts
Pathfinder with Emerald, 3 void gates, and an opal.

Idea is to sit back with the basalts and emerald, flank on one side as fast as possible in low orbit with amethysts. (Get behind his guns) and go "up the gut" with the jets and sit on the right most or left most locations. Shields up with the jet seems to be the fun way to go and I can use the carriers for PD support and bombers for additional damage. (Not that the jet needs any help doing close action damage lol.)

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Looks like a fairly solid list, maybe a little troop light but that’ll depend on how the ‘locals’ play.
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

Oh man I got wrecked.

What I learned:
Column deployment really messes with shaltari close action ships. My amethyst line did its thing and my buddy proceeded to bring half his fleet down on top of them.
Both the jet and amethyst should probably stall their movement in column deployment and sit at half way.
It is really easy to forget low orbit turn four scoring mechanics.
Shaltari carriers are NASTY, they wrecked a ton of stuff.
I need to split up my groups a bit for more flexability.
Voidgates are really nice and prevent a ton of units from getting to the ground.

Modified list 999 points:
Vanguard with jet and two amethyst
Line with basalt, two jades, and a voidgate
Line with basalt and two jades
path finder with three voidgates, mothership, and tbree glass.

Does anyone play the sector special rules? It seems like a ton of overhead and game management. Ie military complexes can shoot into orbit.

Had fun still despite the losses

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 sfshilo wrote:
Oh man I got wrecked.


Does anyone play the sector special rules? It seems like a ton of overhead and game management. Ie military complexes can shoot into orbit.

Had fun still despite the losses


100% do.

Its just at the start of the roundup phase, before anything else happens. Easy to remember and makes you want to take the bases. 2 free shots with no negative? I'll take it. Orbital cannon is ever sicker

Only other base is the extra scan besides those two.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Gave PHR a try again. Played the mission with the 5 space stations, but instead of them we modified it a bit. Deployment was all come on from board edge, middle station was large cluster, 2 middle was small cluster. and sides were medium. Sides each had 1 military base and the middle had two. Personally I feel like most of the mission in the book are crappy play experience. Most games don't have your forces coming on peacemail so I felt that ruined a lot of the game. I digress

Ended up having a pretty good victory. Played only til turn 4 but I had higher VP and Scourge opponent only had a few gargoyles left, while I had pretty much a large part of the fleet.

Still not convinced they are ok. Need a fix still IMO. but here is my list

the medeas spread out, two to his side, one on mine and 1 middle. the Bells and Ganymedes stuck around the center to get into the thick of it. Thesus were more to the right side but swopped in middle.

Pandoras went up the left as a hunter group for big ships.

Orions went mid but spread out as much as possible.

Orions did pretty good, weapons freed twice and caused a good bit of damage. The Bells did as they always do, really good (no surprise since best bombers)

Weakest link was the 4 Pandora. The 6 games with using them so far have been pretty crappy. They can be great, and drew fire, but they never do much damage at all for me

--------------------------------------
PHR Try again - 1485pts
PHR - 8 launch assets

SR15 Vanguard battlegroup (315pts)
1 x Bellerophon - 180pts - H
1 x Ganymede - 135pts - M

SR15 Vanguard battlegroup (315pts)
1 x Bellerophon - 180pts - H
1 x Ganymede - 135pts - M

SR10 Line battlegroup (178pts)
2 x Theseus - 178pts - M

SR15 Line battlegroup (321pts)
1 x Orion - 107pts - M
1 x Orion - 107pts - M
1 x Orion - 107pts - M

SR4 Pathfinder battlegroup (156pts)
2 x Medea - 78pts - L
2 x Medea - 78pts - L

SR4 Pathfinder battlegroup (200pts)
4 x Pandora - 200pts - L
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