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I've been considering the idea asking my group if they'd be ok letting tactical squads upgrade their bolters to stormbolters for 5 points just like sternguard and command squads can. Been wondering why that wasn't already an opinion, as I don't see an immediate balance issues with it, but as I'm new to the game I'm also not a good judge of such.

A guy I know also models all his assault squads with bolters (as far as I know it's a just a modeling thing, not a house rule), and I was thinking I'd do the same, but have wondered about the implications of doing so on the tabletop as well (though perhaps it would be less "assault squad with bolters" and more "tactical squad with jump packs").

Any feedback on either idea?

I think it's more a fluff thing than balance thing. I wouldn't pay 5 pts for a stormbolter myself.

If it were maybe 2 points on a Tactical Marine I might consider it. Might.

However, that doesn't help with the matter of them being stuck at the crap system of a Special and a Heavy. That's the real crime here, and now CSM Vanilla Squads are ultimately superior until you use the Gladius. That's the free Rhinos being good though.

Back in 3rd edition stormbolters might have been worth 5 points more then a regular bolter. But while the stats have remained the same, Rapid Fire has gotten steadily better over the years. The differences between them might be worth 2 points; you do get the extra shot at long range. You generally want to be in close to use your special though.

But paying 5 ppm is a trap. It’s overpriced on characters, actively detrimental on sternguard, and crazy on a squad level for tacs.

I wish I could give bolters to assault marines. (although truly I’d love tom to be gunslingers with paired bolt pistols) They would be a mobile harassment unit. Zip around and irritate backfield campers. Of course, that role is done better with just basic bikes. Swapping a BP/CCW for a bolter is normally a straight swap points wise.

Back in 3rd-4th when the current price of the storm bolter was set everything was more expensive (Space Marines were 15pts and had to pay 3pts/model to have frag and krak grenades), and you had to stand still to use the full range mode on a boltgun. Whatever they're worth now it's definitely not 5pts/model, especially on single wound line infantry.

I think you're moving in the wrong direction with the idea (unfortunately). Armour/toughness/saves need to be downgraded before more people get MORE firepower (this is one of the biggest issues with current 40K).

Stormbolters aren't firepower. They are a nothing.

Thank you for proving my point, concisely.

 Nevelon wrote:
Back in 3rd edition stormbolters might have been worth 5 points more then a regular bolter. But while the stats have remained the same, Rapid Fire has gotten steadily better over the years. The differences between them might be worth 2 points; you do get the extra shot at long range. You generally want to be in close to use your special though.

But paying 5 ppm is a trap. It’s overpriced on characters, actively detrimental on sternguard, and crazy on a squad level for tacs.

I wish I could give bolters to assault marines. (although truly I’d love tom to be gunslingers with paired bolt pistols) They would be a mobile harassment unit. Zip around and irritate backfield campers. Of course, that role is done better with just basic bikes. Swapping a BP/CCW for a bolter is normally a straight swap points wise.

I see. I'd assumed 5 ppm was roughly balanced, since that's what it costs to use them on sternguard and command squads (not that any sane person has ever done so in the former case). The fact those are the only two actual squads (save terminators) you can give them to bugs me something fierce, I'm used to playing other wargames where the general rule was anybody can have anything, as long as you've got the points for it. 40k's more restrictive rules are taking some getting used to.

And yeah, that's the exact role I envisioned using assault marines for when I heard the idea. I suppose in theory bikes could do it (I'm new enough that a bike squad is still in the "thing that might be fun, once I have a solid core to add them too" phase") but given my experinace with seeing how other people have used them the extra speed might not be worth the inability to show up anywhere and make a pest of yourself.

Martel732 wrote:Stormbolters aren't firepower. They are a nothing.

I don't quite follow.

Take what Martel says with a grain of salt. He plays in a very competitive environment. But through that filter, what he says is true.

What are the things you need to worry about? What needs killing? Can bolters help with that?

In a world of flying monsters, giant death robots, and super heavies, plus deathstars with layers (often re-rollable) saves, the humble bolter just doesn’t cut it. You do the math for how many shots it takes to put a wound on something (even the things you can theoretically wound) and the numbers are ugly.

In competitive environments, the job of a bolter marine is to shield the guy with the relevant weapon with his life, or to hug an objective and try not to die. The firepower of his gun is mostly irrelevant.

In a more casual friendly game, vs. more “normal” targets, you can do a lot with a well ordered bolter drill. But at the top, with the cheese and shenanigans, there is not a lot it can do.

Martel732 wrote:
Stormbolters aren't firepower. They are a nothing.

I think he means, weapon power creep has caused a lot of issues in the game (D, spammable s8 ap2 pie plates), so instead of buffing more guns up, forcing more normal units to have invul saves, forcing more D to ignore invul saves, forcing more Invuls, more D ad nasuem
We should be looking to soften more units up to be prone to damage, so that a storm bolter is something, and bring the scale back down a touch.


It's my opinion, but I agree, we don't need more stronger weapons, we need quite a few weapons to be dropped down in strength, and many units to be adjusted to be easier to wound. System-wide.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Stormbolters aren't firepower. They are a nothing.

I think he means, weapon power creep has caused a lot of issues in the game (D, spammable s8 ap2 pie plates), so instead of buffing more guns up, forcing more normal units to have invul saves, forcing more D to ignore invul saves, forcing more Invuls, more D ad nasuem
We should be looking to soften more units up to be prone to damage, so that a storm bolter is something, and bring the scale back down a touch.


It's my opinion, but I agree, we don't need more stronger weapons, we need quite a few weapons to be dropped down in strength, and many units to be adjusted to be easier to wound. System-wide.

Except the Storm Bolter wasn't ever good to begin with, even in 4th's crap rapid fire rules. So does everything need to be scaled back, or does a weapon that was never good need the buff?

Stormbolters were strong in the 3rd ed mass codex.That's it.

Buff/nerfs don't matter to me as much as appropriately costing existing units. For a bolter marine to be worth 14pts, a lot of units need to get more expensive. Or all bolter marines come with free transports. Take your pick.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Back in 3rd edition stormbolters might have been worth 5 points more then a regular bolter. But while the stats have remained the same, Rapid Fire has gotten steadily better over the years. The differences between them might be worth 2 points; you do get the extra shot at long range. You generally want to be in close to use your special though.

But paying 5 ppm is a trap. It’s overpriced on characters, actively detrimental on sternguard, and crazy on a squad level for tacs.

I wish I could give bolters to assault marines. (although truly I’d love tom to be gunslingers with paired bolt pistols) They would be a mobile harassment unit. Zip around and irritate backfield campers. Of course, that role is done better with just basic bikes. Swapping a BP/CCW for a bolter is normally a straight swap points wise.

I see. I'd assumed 5 ppm was roughly balanced, since that's what it costs to use them on sternguard and command squads (not that any sane person has ever done so in the former case). The fact those are the only two actual squads (save terminators) you can give them to bugs me something fierce, I'm used to playing other wargames where the general rule was anybody can have anything, as long as you've got the points for it. 40k's more restrictive rules are taking some getting used to.

And yeah, that's the exact role I envisioned using assault marines for when I heard the idea. I suppose in theory bikes could do it (I'm new enough that a bike squad is still in the "thing that might be fun, once I have a solid core to add them too" phase") but given my experinace with seeing how other people have used them the extra speed might not be worth the inability to show up anywhere and make a pest of yourself.

Martel732 wrote:Stormbolters aren't firepower. They are a nothing.

I don't quite follow.

No sane person indeed, since you are paying five points plus hellfire rounds to get the sb.

For many other games, if you upgraded from a bolter to a storm bolter or something like a meltagun, using the weapon would be different. Firing it would take more action points, or be more likely to allow the enemy to shoot first, or it would require a harder roll to see if you had enough ammunition left, or you would have to spend a turn reloading. To get a build a good unit that could move every turn, suppress the enemy, fire every turn reliably, you'd need a mix of weak weapons and upgrade ones. 40kjust doesn't have those rules. I think it is good ask your group about this though. I think it would be realistic if every combat squad could have one model with a storm bolter or a stalker bolt gun, because there should be a marksman like there is in a normal real world fire team.