Confrontation: Resurrection-Skirimsh and board game confirmed.

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**Sarouan**

Overread wrote:
I suspect we might get more of these as the company dissolves and contracts end or people simply decide that there's no "threat" in the NDA contract and break out without warning.

I'm not sure. I believe most people involved would rather just forget that sad episode of their life and move on, like Josselyn. Mr Grussi did because he started a new company involved with making games and thus has more incentive to clear his name as soon as possible - especially because he was involved with the Adventure Ulule's project.

Even if, to be honest, I don't really buy his NDA justification for talking just now. I believe the rats like Piotr ran away a long time ago. He certainly could have talked sooner if he wanted to, but it was better for him to wait for the bitter end to play it safer. He's just trying to salvage his skin, here. Which is perfectly human, in the end.

**ced1106**

JWBS wrote:
Damn that's a fairly large amount of money to lose without a trace.

Speculation is that they used the money to fund and/or close their other companies. IIRC, Sans Detour needed even *more* money, as they solicited for investors after the Confrontation KS?

They also delivered some resins, so, technically, some backers got something.

It's unfortunate when an IP is owned or licensed by someone who doesn't give it the respect it deserves. I've learned my lesson in a Cryptozoic KS campaign to *never* base your KS decision on the IP.

**Overread**

Far as I can tell the money gets spent going into other firms that then go bankrupt. One gets the feeling that the upper ends of the firm were simply opening new sub-businesses; ferreting money into them; running up debts and then closing those firms. Moving money around until no one lower down knows where the actual money is - just that there's never enough.

The other option is that the higher ups were just really really bad at business and threw good money after bad constantly whilst being unable to make anything work; getting to the point where they started new projects to fund old ones hoping that one of the older ones would turn into a cash-cow which could then fund the latter ones.

The only thing that makes me less likely to believe the second is that this wasn't just one firm chasing money; they were efficient in starting and bankrupting several sub-firms.

**Monkeysloth**

Sarouan wrote:
Overread wrote:
I suspect we might get more of these as the company dissolves and contracts end or people simply decide that there's no "threat" in the NDA contract and break out without warning.

I'm not sure. I believe most people involved would rather just forget that sad episode of their life and move on, like Josselyn. Mr Grussi did because he started a new company involved with making games and thus has more incentive to clear his name as soon as possible - especially because he was involved with the Adventure Ulule's project.

Even if, to be honest, I don't really buy his NDA justification for talking just now. I believe the rats like Piotr ran away a long time ago. He certainly could have talked sooner if he wanted to, but it was better for him to wait for the bitter end to play it safer. He's just trying to salvage his skin, here. Which is perfectly human, in the end.

I don't know how French/EU law is on NDAs but in some States here in the US if you're high enough in the company and break that you're screwed. In my State you have to be considered essential to the project for the NDA to be enforceable but even if your not it's a lot of money to defend yourself. So for me I can see why one would not want to speak out, not a lot of money in honest work in RPGs. I've also worked for a crap company that treated employees and customers like dirt but oddly paid pretty well and was terrified about leaving and not being employable anywhere else due to the current market and other factors. So I by that too. Paying rent and putting food on the table is a big motivator to hunker down and hope it gets better.

Now that's not to say that everything Mr Grussi says should be taking at face value, and from what it sounds like the French Tabletop community people will dig deeper, but it's a reasoning that shouldn't be automatically brushed aside either.

**Overread**

Aye I can appreciate staff on a sinking ship still holding on - especially in today's working market where we've a market with far fewer job openings (and in good positions not just min wage or part time/random hours). As you say bread on the table and rent is very important to people and not everyone has the option to just up sticks and move out on principle.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I think it's a plausible claim, but there's no proof it went down like that,

I'd also worry that any IP developed while working at SD could belong to SD and might be at risk as the firm is wound up (especially if the French state is owed any money)

(depending on how his contact was written, and if it had a ND element that was strong enough to keep him silent while he KNEW there were major problems suggests it was written by somebody with at least some legal skill)

so beware when throwing money at anything other than a simple retail transaction with him even if you do believe his claims

**Monkeysloth**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think it's a plausible claim, but there's no proof it went down like that,

There's no proof that it didn't which is always a problem in situations like this.

I didn't word it very well, have a bit of a head cold, but in the past the French gaming community always digs pretty deep into drama/controversy like this (just seeing the things they find earlier in this thread shows that) so I'm sure more employee's viewpoints will come out if not just by them talking to someone and that someone putting it up on a forum. Might take a few years but there's a decent chance we'll have a better picture as it seams to be a pretty tight nit community with a lot of people knowing people and so on.

so beware when throwing money at anything other than a simple retail transaction with him even if you do believe his claims

I would think that trust would need to be earned for sure.

**Gallahad**

Gallahad wrote:
I currently estimate the probability of delivery no more than 1 year late and miniature quality equal to or exceeding the old pre painted plastics to be about 20%.

I said the above in April of 2018. Glad I made the right call and didn't give them a penny.

It is interesting to go back and read this thread starting around page 16-17. The community largely did a good job trying to warn people about the risks involved in this project, despite many having a lot of nostalgia.

Not calling anyone out, we all make mistakes in judgement. One of the benefits of being on Dakka is that there is a lot of accumulated wisdom here that we can bring to bear (or ignore at our own risk.)

**.Mikes.**

Sarouan wrote:
.Mikes. wrote:
*taps mic* is this thing on?

Fun too, when you interacted with Duncan_Idaho at the time you were a supporter of the KS and doubting his words about his knowledge of how the industry works.

Link to that doubting, please.

**ced1106**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'd also worry that any IP developed while working at SD could belong to SD and might be at risk as the firm is wound up (especially if the French state is owed any money)

Well, the Confrontation license itself is owned by Stellar (something), although the owners can be linked to Sans Detour. As for game mechanics, I thought there was a community-driven Confrontation game, so there's still some sort of game development going on without SD?? In any case, I didn't get the impression that SD did that much game development or that it was (or wasn't) well-received. IIRC, Some backers didn't like SD's use of icons.

**Sarouan**

.Mikes. wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
.Mikes. wrote:
*taps mic* is this thing on?

Fun too, when you interacted with Duncan_Idaho at the time you were a supporter of the KS and doubting his words about his knowledge of how the industry works.

Link to that doubting, please.

Yes, that's what you told him : asking links for his claims.

But sure, here you are : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570/717182.page

I think you can handle to scroll down a bit to find your quotes.

**Voss**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think it's a plausible claim, but there's no proof it went down like that,

I'd also worry that any IP developed while working at SD could belong to SD and might be at risk as the firm is wound up (especially if the French state is owed any money)

Yeah, that crossed my mind too. That's how TSR got Gary Gygax in the end. They torpedoed his 'breakout' project 'Dangerous Journeys' because he admitted to writing at least some of it on TSR company time, and his contract said if it was done on their time, it was theirs.

**.Mikes.**

Sarouan wrote:
.Mikes. wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
.Mikes. wrote:
*taps mic* is this thing on?

Fun too, when you interacted with Duncan_Idaho at the time you were a supporter of the KS and doubting his words about his knowledge of how the industry works.

Link to that doubting, please.

Yes, that's what you told him : asking links for his claims.

But sure, here you are : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570/717182.page

I think you can handle to scroll down a bit to find your quotes.

I ask for links. Shocking.

As a little aside, what is less shocking but more than a little saddening is the joy some have taken in the disappointment of those who have been negatively effected by the KS implosion. It shows a side of humanity we could do with leaving behind.

**JWBS**

.Mikes. wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
.Mikes. wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
.Mikes. wrote:
*taps mic* is this thing on?

Fun too, when you interacted with Duncan_Idaho at the time you were a supporter of the KS and doubting his words about his knowledge of how the industry works.

Link to that doubting, please.

Yes, that's what you told him : asking links for his claims.

But sure, here you are : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570/717182.page

I think you can handle to scroll down a bit to find your quotes.

I ask for links. Shocking.

As a little aside, what is less shocking but more than a little saddening is the joy some have taken in the disappointment of those who have been negatively effected by the KS implosion. It shows a side of humanity we could do with leaving behind.

Sounding not a little bit sanctimonious here man. It's almost never a good look.

**.Mikes.**

Morally superior? No. Although I do find it off he decided to come out of the woodwork and attack me for a question I asked months ago to someone with no interaction between us inbetween. Although this KS has prompted a lot of odd beheviour from a lot of people.

**Sarouan**

.Mikes. wrote:
Morally superior? No. Although I do find it off he decided to come out of the woodwork and attack me for a question I asked months ago to someone with no interaction between us inbetween. Although this KS has prompted a lot of odd beheviour from a lot of people.

No, I was being facetious.

I just found it funny you had the exact same behaviour while these were your own quotes, and thus could have checked easily yourself the same way I did.

But I don't really blame you here, actually. That's why I said it was fun to read that with the insight from now. That's a good point of forums, you can enjoy a small trip in the past.

**Hanskrampf**

Just received (because I backed for 1€ to receive updates):

ENGLISH VERSION AT THE BOTTOM

Chère Madame, Cher Monsieur,

Vous avez acheté ou soutenu la création d’un ou plusieurs produit(s) ludique(s) mis en prévente par la société SANS DETOUR dans le cadre des financements participatifs suivants :
→ « Aventures – Le Jeu » campagne réalisée entre le 02/10/2017 et le 03/11/2017 sur le site internet ULULE.COM.
→ « Confrontation – Classic The legendary skirmish game » campagne réalisée entre le 16/04/2018 et le 17/05/2018 sur le site internet KICKSTARTER.COM.

Nous vous informons que la section F2 du Parquet de Paris a ouvert une enquête préliminaire pour des faits d’abus de confiance. Cette enquête a été confiée à la plateforme d’identification des avoirs criminels, service de police judiciaire ayant compétence sur l’ensemble du territoire national.
Le résultat des investigations en cours nous conduit à vous inviter à répondre à une LETTRE CIRCULAIRE dans laquelle vous trouverez un questionnaire et un formulaire à remplir si vous souhaitez déposer plainte.

Pourquoi et comment déposer plainte ?
La plainte a pour objectif de sanctionner pénalement (prison, amende …) l’auteur des faits dont vous vous dites victime.
Le dépôt de cette plainte est gratuit.
Si vous souhaitez déposer plainte, nous vous invitons à imprimer, remplir, signer puis nous retourner la LETTRE CIRCULAIRE par voie électronique ou postale.

Comment transmettre sa lettre circulaire remplie et signée ?
Cette lettre, remplie et signée, doit nous être retournée à l’adresse suivante : avconfplainte@interieur.gouv.fr
Merci d’indiquer en objet de l'email : RETOUR LC - NOM + Prénom.
Vous pouvez également nous transmettre la LETTRE CIRCULAIRE par voie postale à l’adresse suivante :
DCPJ/OCRGDF/PIAC
101, rue des Trois Fontanot
92000 NANTERRE

Quels sont les justificatifs à joindre dans le cadre du dépôt de plainte?
→ justificatif de paiement, uniquement dans les cas suivants :
- si vous avez effectué votre achat sur le site SANS-DETOUR.com.
- si vous avez effectué votre achat sur le site BACKERKIT.com après le 15/10/2018.
Si vous avez effectué votre achat dans le cadre de la campagne initiale de financement participatif, vous n’avez pas de justificatif de paiement à nous joindre.
→ copie de vos éventuels courriels d’échange avec la société SANS DETOUR.
→ copie de votre éventuel dépôt de plainte auprès d’un service de police ou de gendarmerie.

Comment se faire indemniser ?
Suite au dépôt de votre plainte, si vous souhaitez vous faire indemniser en tant que victime, vous pouvez vous constituer partie civile tout au long de la procédure.

Si j’ai déjà déclaré ma créance auprès du liquidateur judiciaire de SANS DETOUR ?
La déclaration de créance au liquidateur judiciaire est distincte du dépôt de plainte.
Le liquidateur peut vous représenter dans la procédure en tant que créancier mais non en tant que victime.

IMPORTANT : la LETTRE CIRCULAIRE remplie et signée doit nous parvenir avant le 15/01/2021.

Dear sir, dear madam,

You bought or supported the creation of one or several entertainment products sold by the company « SANS-DETOUR » through the following crowdfunding :
- « Aventures — Le jeu » between 10/02/2017 and 11/03/2017 on the website ULULE.COM
- « Confrontation — classic The legendary skirmish game » between 04/16/2018 and 05/17/2018 on the website KICKSTARTER.COM.
Inform you that the section F2 of the court of Paris opened a preliminary investigation for breach of trust. This investigation was entrusted to the judiciary police service which has juridiction over the french territory.
The result of the ongoing investigations lead us to invite you to answer to a standard letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" in which you will find a survey and a form you will need to fill if you want to press charges.

How and why file a complaint ?
The complaint is necessary to condemn (jail, fine…) the author of this crime.
Filing this complaint is free of charge.
If you want to file a complaint, you have to print, fill, sign and send us the standard letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" back by mail or post.
Please find attached the standard letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" and an ENGLISH NOTICE for assistance on completing the letter.

Where can I send this standard letter ?
This completed letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" must be sent to the following email : avconfplainte@interieur.gouv.fr
Indicate in subject line : RETOUR LC – Last name + First name
You can also send us the letter to the following address :
DCPJ/OCRGDF/PIAC
101 rue des trois fontanot
92000 Nanterre

What are the required pieces of my complaint ?
→ proves of payment only in those specific cases :
- If you made a purchase on « SANS-DETOUR.COM » (SANS DETOUR SHOP)
- If you made a purchase on « BACKERIT.COM » after the 10/15/2018
If you only participate in crowdfunding, no proof is needed.
→ If so, copy of your emails if you exchanged with the company SANS DETOUR
→ If so, copy of your complaint filed in a police station

How can I be compensated ?
After the complaint, as a victim, you can get compensation. As to do so, you need to become a civil party all along the procedure.

If I have already made my statement of claim to the SANS DETOUR’s judicial liquidator ?
The statement of claim to the judicial liquidator is NOT a complaint.
In this procedure, the liquidator can represent you as a creditor but not as a victim.

IMPORTANT : the completed and signed standard letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" must reach us BEFORE the 01/15/2021.

--

Pour une administration exemplaire, préservons l'environnement.
N'imprimons que si nécessaire.

Looks like things are moving forward as expected.

**Sacredroach**

Got one as well. For just 1€ this has been one hell of a prize fight.

I just wish that the people involved with Sans Detour were actually responsible and morally upstanding individuals.

Confrontation deserved better than this.

Fortunately, I can still enjoy Legends of Signum as its spiritual successor. And yes, I realize the slanted levels of hypocrisy involved there...

**warboss**

Putting in the minimum pledge just for the lulz is probably the only wise donation level. I did the same for the failed Rifts board game just so I could comment sarcastically for years to come after the Robotech debacle but it was cancelled before I posted anything.

**Kalamadea**

Got that email this morning. I've also certainly gotten my $1 entertainment out of it, but it's still sad. I miss confrontation, still have a bunch of metals and plastics and nobody willing to use them against :( Really wish somebody competent had taken it over, first Rackham then CMoN and then Sans Detour, such an awesome game doesn't deserve for such clowns to be "running" it.

I just want a time machine to go back to 2004 when I could hit up my local FLGS multiple nights a week and always have people ready for a game of Confrontation 3.0 or 4th ed 40K, often both.

**Overread**

Sacredroach wrote:

Fortunately, I can still enjoy Legends of Signum as its spiritual successor. And yes, I realize the slanted levels of hypocrisy involved there...

It's probably one of the few recaster situations where I'd also support them now they are no longer recasting and are making their own game and own models. Heck if I wasn't snowed under with other games I'd be getting some Signum models.

Personally I hope something does come of the legal situation surrounding SD. There's incompetence, but at the same time the speed at which they opened sub-companies; loaded them with debt and then snowballed them into administration was too fast. It was one big warning sign not just that something was wrong, but that something either grossly incompetent or nefarious was going on. Suffice to say that someone at the head end of SD and the other firms likely does deserve fines/imprisonment for something going crooked.

The sad thing is it might mean the Confrontation licence gets broken up into bits or falls into the wayside of being bought up by a random firm or just left with the debt collectors to gather dust in a draw. Who knows perhaps Warcradle or Tabletop Combat might take a lot; they've at least major stores backing them for finance; but at the same time both already have their plates full of other projects and Confrontation is a huge rescue job (and I think Warcradle already got their hands burned enough buying the old Spartan Games stuff)

**Limonata**

Additional information can be found here
https://www.beastsofwar.com/confrontation/community-notice-french-police-investigating-sans-detour-seeking-information/

If you know someone who had been burned by the KS, there is a form you can fill out to notify the French Police

To date, most of the information regarding this has been solely in French which is why the French Assets Recovery Office has reached out to see if we can share this information to those affected who may not be aware of the ongoing investigation. Almost 10,000 people backed the two projects on the respective platforms and will have already received an email, however late backers using the store or backerkit will not so here is the current information for backers of either;

→ “ Adventures - The Game ” campaign carried out between 02/10/2017 and 03/11/2017 on the ULULE.COM website.

→ “ Confrontation - Classic The legendary skirmish game ” campaign carried out between 04/16/2018 and 05/17/2018 on the KICKSTARTER.COM website.

The Assets Recovery Office have sent a statement detailing in full the procedure to follow that can be read here on ulule.com A Letter with a questionnaire has been sent out along with a complaint form for people to complete if they wish to be included in the legal action. Filing the complaint is free, and if you are a contributor to either project and have not received the letter then you can request a copy by the following.

You can request it by sending an email to avconfplainte@interieur.gouv.for
Indicate in the subject line: REQUEST LC - Last name + First name
This completed letter must be returned to the following email: avconfplainte@interieur.go
Indicate in the subject line: RETOUR LC - Last name + First nameuv.fr
Please note that the emails are not the same

IMPORTANT: The completed and signed standard letter must reach us BEFORE the 01/15/2021.

For those contributors outside France, you can join the above legal action, so if you were unlucky enough to have backed either project I urge you to read the full press release and if you wish to be involved take the time to request and complete the forms.

**.Mikes.**

Monolith has been granted the rights for Confrontation.

This is welcome news, but will need a lot of clarification, which will apparently come next week. The big one is much of the worldwide rights to Confrontation, including names and artwork, were purchased by Temple of the West who were planning on releasing their own game, and had already sculpted adn released several (amazing) minis based on Paul Bonner artwork. That was paused a while back due "big thing" mid last year, so it could be Monolith were in talks with them over some of those rights.

On a positive point there's a solid base of fans who conitnue to support Confrontation through their own miniatures and at least one - Cernonus Studios - have said Monolith have reached out to them already. In what way they didn't say, but it's good that Monolith mich be tapping into an existing pool of talent who love the game and the setting.

**Desert Dave**

Wonder if they picked up AT-43 as well

**.Mikes.**

They did, apparently.

**Johanxp**

Great news, Confrontation deserves love.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Confrontation is dead, long live Confrontation!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/813525.page

(closing this 7 year old thread)